# recall help please



## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Barney is usually good at recall and I always carry cocktail sausages for him as treats. However, if he sees a dog he likes the look of he ignores me and he's off to go and investigate. 9 times out of 10, he'll (eventually) come back when I call him but once or twice he hasn't and will completely ignore me. He then seems to look for me and if he cant find me, particularly if there are more than a few people close to him, he starts to run back towards the direction we came in... fortunately its never been near a road but it's a bit scary when he seems panicked at not being able to see me.

So what can I do to deal with what I believe is impulse control and apparent blindness and deafness?!

thanks


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I'm going to try and think of this from his perspective. He's at the park, he's a puppy longing to play and have fun with other dogs and for some reason his mum gets her shorts all in a knot when he doesn't "listen" as though he is a robot or highly trained police dog or something.  It's all about anticipating what he'll do before he does it. Rufus is over his "need to check out each and every dog stage" (thankfully) but when he was in it I'd walk in places where that was ok and expected, like designated dog parks in Ottawa. Or I'd walk on trails where I could see dogs coming before he did and clip on his lead before he could not listen. I also worked hard at a "stay right by me" command on and then off leash. When he was reliably listening to me I'd reward with an "ok, go play" if I knew it was going to be ok. Once they have a high degree of trust that you'll let them meet their needs for play, fun and socialization they know it is in their best interest to always listen to you. Expecting a perfect recall from a pup his age is not realistic, but it will come with alot of work.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Fairlie. Though my shorts aren't in a knot, and I do realise he'll grow out of this. We do practice a lot of 'stay close' on and off the lead which he understands. 

Keeping him on the lead when I suspect he might do a runner helps a lot, and most of the time his recall is pretty good considering his young age. 

I'd never expect perfection but do feel concerned when he can't see me and seems to panic, running around frantically trying to find me.

Actually what I didn't make clear is that he will invariably run off to check out other dogs on the beach or in the park and that's ok and understandable. It's the times he wont then come back that can be somewhat annoying, especially when the owner of the other dog is trying to go her own way and both our dogs are ensconced in their own little playtime!


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

I think this is where others use 'really high value' treats. The treat has to be something he would really really like even more that playing with another dog. (bits of roast beef, chicken or liver for example)


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Aah yes, chicken instead of cocktail sausages is a good idea, thank you for the reminder!


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm in no position to give advice about recall (today I lost out to a stray carrot she found on her travels ) but tiny bonus bits of really stinky stuff mixed in with the chicken work well, she never knows when the good stuff's coming but she knows it's in there somewhere - chorizo and cheddar are good. Or frankly with those ingredients just stay at home and share a pizza


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Mazzapoo said:


> Or frankly with those ingredients just stay at home and share a pizza


Yes! Good thinking


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

When Chance was a pup I would call her in when I spotted other dogs and reward heavily for staying with me - then when we got closer and I could see the other owner was happy I would release her to go and say hello - so just running to see the other dog she actually got less reward than she got for listening when she got a load of treats and also got to say hello to the dog which meant she was increasingly likely to listen to me. 

When recalling as a pup I also set her up to succeed largely so not calling when there was not much chance of her responding, so if she found a dog to play with and they were enjoying a game I would wait for the game to be over before calling her away, likewise with greetings, wait until she had finished saying hello then call her.

Do you have a visual signal for recall as well as verbal? I have always used both arms held out - I don't use it all the time but it does help if there are quite a few people around and the dogs are struggling to locate me so might be worth a try for Barney?


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you 2ndhandgal, that's helpful advice. I do hold my arms out wide when I call him and that eventually works.

Now I'm worried about his hip but I'll save that for another thread, hopefully after I can see the vet tomorrow.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Hope his hip is ok.

Had a few more thoughts about recall. Call and reward when there is nothing around too otherwise they learn calling is a predictor of the distraction appearing. 

If he is getting to his teenage phase and not listening don't be afraid to go back a stage and put him on his long line to reinforce it is not his free choice.

Play with him some of the times when you have recalled. Mine love to climb on things (the reason we started the posing) and rather than just handing out treats I ask for things like a hand touch or spin or I throw the treats and they have to find them which they both enjoy very much.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you - I cant get a vet's appointment till Thursday and I'm sure it can wait till then.

I've never had much luck with him on a long line - he tends to leap up and bite it and then it gets horribly tangled but if he is in teenage mode, I will try again.

I do call and reward him frequently so he knows its not always about putting his lead on but playing with him and asking him to do things or pose (unlikely at the moment I fear!) is a good idea.

Here he is doing a red riding hood impersonation...


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I wish I had known about arms stretched out. I always crouch down which means he comes when I'm tieing my shoe or trying to photograph a wildflower. 

Great point about them learning that a recall just means "I'm about to be denied something exciting". Better is to ask them to stop, I use "wait there" and then you go to them. We were taught for any recall either treat with one minute of love or a really major treat. Maybe we are just blessed with very good dog walk areas but it would be odd for me to need to bring Rufus in to me more than once on any given walk. As far as him not seeing you I am a bit baffled. Are the parks so crowded that you are lost in a crowd or does he play so far away from you that he loses sight of you? I totally agree with 2nd that you should not be calling him if he won't come, it just teaches him that listening is a sometimes thing.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I'm a bit baffled too as to why he cant see me - he's never _that _far away but I think a few legs wearing jeans might have confused him at times. Must be quite daunting I guess if you're little and there are many similar looking legs closer to him than mine are!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

It is odd. If you're at the vet for his hip (I hope that is ok) maybe mention it. Odds are it's nothing, but most dogs see very well as they speak with extremely subtle almost indetectable ear twitches and lip curls.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

I wrote a big replying yesterday and then the computer crashed when I hit the Post Quick Reply button 
You've had plenty of good advice already:
my points in short summary:
* play more with him when you are out - have squeaky tuggy toy in pocket, every now and again whip it out and run away from him making squeaky excited noises, when he comes to you reward him with a mad (short) game and then put the toy away and ignore him. This is not recall training, this is just training him to keep an eye on you because you do fun stuff
* cocktail sausages are for cute puppy. Thug teenagers need much more incentive - green pepperami, dried fish, chopped up venison tubes, garlic rich liver cake - up the value of your treats.
* use your eyes you can spot potential trouble (other dog) before him - work at getting his attention first tugga squeaky toy - and then keeping it, by doing some training and rewarding with extra stinky treats. The other dog will probably come and join in.
* we talk about the *magic circle* when training - the distance that your dog can be away from you, but still be responsive to you. Work out Barney's limit and then see what you can do to increase it - playing games will help.
* if he loves playing with a ball - take a ball and launcher with you and use it as a bingo reward. Dot won't take her eyes off me if there is a chance I will throw the ball!
*Try retraining the recall using a referee style whistle rather than your voice. It carries further/ cuts through dog fog (squirrell/poop/bitch in heat thoughts etc)

Re the being blind/deaf to you - I believe it is panic that he has lost you. This once happened with Kiki - we were walking to school to collect Lizzie across the fields. I met a friend and stopped to chat. Kiki was hunting bunnies through the bushes. When she emerged I was 50 odd yards behind her - she obviously thought she had been left behind and just legged it along the path - she ran flat out across two more fields a main road and arrived at the school gate 10 minutes in advance of me. Fortunately she was well known and someone had caught hold of her and texted me to let me know that they had her and she was ok. She was about 5 months and it really scared me. She also panicked and ran the time a helicopter landed near us. No way she was responding to me then.
Never done it since.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

fairlie said:


> It is odd. If you're at the vet for his hip (I hope that is ok) maybe mention it. Odds are it's nothing, but most dogs see very well as they speak with extremely subtle almost indetectable ear twitches and lip curls.


Dog eyes pick up movement much better than if you are just standing still in the distance. 
Their hearing and smell is better... but they do suffer from dog fog when one sense takes over all others - moving squirrel, smelly fox poop, excited yapping or squealing child....


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

I can vouch for the 'blind panic' thing, I once turned off the path to walk across the field instead because she was playing with another dog up ahead (an owner we know) refusing to stop following it and ignoring me. When she decided to come back to me she didn't even look anywhere but just ran at 100mph back down the lane towards home (and road ) and too far for me to catch up even though I'd started running, I was nearly sick and screaming her name and blowing the whistle which she only just tuned into before the road. I wasn't even hidden, she just totally switched to single-minded mode  Also her directional hearing is pants (maybe the big ears?!).


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> I'm a bit baffled too as to why he cant see me - he's never _that _far away but I think a few legs wearing jeans might have confused him at times. Must be quite daunting I guess if you're little and there are many similar looking legs closer to him than mine are!


I can't give advice on recall Sid is pretty hopeless, he just comes to the name Molly so we have two Molly's , strange I hear you all saying why would anyone call both their dogs Molly !! No I haven't but I give up sometimes,especially when you call him at maximum decibels and he doesn't respond so I resort to calling Molly and at least they both return  I'm wondering if I dress as a rabbit, a chicken or another dog I've got more chance of getting Sid to come back to me !! 
As for not seeing you, maybe barney needs glasses x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

fairlie said:


> It is odd. If you're at the vet for his hip (I hope that is ok) maybe mention it. Odds are it's nothing, but most dogs see very well as they speak with extremely subtle almost indetectable ear twitches and lip curls.


I will ask the vet on Thursday. He also apparently only has one descended testicle, poor boy, so the nurse had said he should be castrated if the other one doesnt appear as its dangerous to stay as it is. Perhaps if he needed an anaesthetic for an xray on his hip it could all be done at once, though I seem to remember reading somewhere they dont do xrays on dogs under a year old; not sure if that's correct. His hip is a bit iffy at times - he holds his leg up sometimes when walking, and later he had that same leg stretched out when he was walking  Then he was fine for a few days, then his leg was doing odd things again so I think its worth checking out. Hopefully it was nothing - he's been fine today after a long run and play and no weird hip action from him at all!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Marzi said:


> I wrote a big replying yesterday and then the computer crashed when I hit the Post Quick Reply button
> You've had plenty of good advice already:
> my points in short summary:
> * play more with him when you are out - have squeaky tuggy toy in pocket, every now and again whip it out and run away from him making squeaky excited noises, when he comes to you reward him with a mad (short) game and then put the toy away and ignore him. This is not recall training, this is just training him to keep an eye on you because you do fun stuff
> ...


Thanks Marzi, especially having to write that all out twice!
I always have a ball and a chucker thingy with me which he loves, until he gets bored with it. I will take a tug toy too, good idea, though last night his favourite one went to toy heaven as he had eaten most of it. He was great on our walk today, I distracted him from running off to 2 other dogs as he knew I had sausages with me. I'm not sure I could walk around with dried fish or venison in my pocket - I have enough trouble with huge dogs sniffing my bag as it is - but liver cake might be bearable! I dont think he is at thug teenager stage just yet, but these are all good points to bear in mind and start using, thank you.

A whistle is an excellent idea - I have one, but never used it 

You must have been very scared when Kiki ran off. At least she went in the right direction and was well known in the area. Our little pups are a worry at times


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Goosey said:


> I can't give advice on recall Sid is pretty hopeless, he just comes to the name Molly so we have two Molly's , strange I hear you all saying why would anyone call both their dogs Molly !! No I haven't but I give up sometimes,especially when you call him at maximum decibels and he doesn't respond so I resort to calling Molly and at least they both return  I'm wondering if I dress as a rabbit, a chicken or another dog I've got more chance of getting Sid to come back to me !!
> As for not seeing you, maybe barney needs glasses x


haha!! Poor confused Sid 
Barney may well need glasses - sometimes he misses the ball I've thrown right by his feet and doesnt see it!  x


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh I do hope Barney is ok on Thursday.
I think he is in his teenage rebellion mode - I will leave the good advice and training tips to marzi, fairlie and 2nd! - you can't get better than them.
I just shout treats or cheese for ruby & she comes running back (greedy!!) I think she thinks that is her second name.
Ps where has Barney's FB page gone??


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Tracy! I'm just making liver cakes and Barney is going berserk at the smell!
His facebook page is still there - can you not see it? I had to ban a couple of trolls, but I dont think you were one of them (hope not )


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I hope Barney is OK - leg lifting sometimes and straightening it sounds more like a knee problem to me so I would ask them to check him for luxating patella which an experienced vet should be able to check by feel - hopefully it is nothing and he just overdid it.

The key to his chuckit and top value treats are to not use them routinely and only use them for his best performance and best efforts - so recall with nothing much going on - standard treats, recall when there has been a distraction and he had made the right choice, liver cake and a couple of throws of the ball


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Oh that's very helpful to hear, thank you. It didn't cross my mind it could be his knee. 
And I'll save the liver treats for extra special good behaviour - thank you very much ☺


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Thanks Tracy! I'm just making liver cakes and Barney is going berserk at the smell!
> His facebook page is still there - can you not see it? I had to ban a couple of trolls, but I dont think you were one of them (hope not )


That's not a nice thing to call me Lou, I've been called a lot of things but not a troll


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I knew it was you in disguise, you terrible troll! X


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Janey153 said:


> Thanks Tracy! I'm just making liver cakes and Barney is going berserk at the smell!
> His facebook page is still there - can you not see it? I had to ban a couple of trolls, but I dont think you were one of them (hope not )


Nope - I'm not the troll! :trolls:
I don't do FB, but I used to like clicking on Barney's to see his antics in greater detail and your granddaughters giggles 
If I click on now it just says no longer available 
Liver cake sounds tasty - let's see Barney ignore that when you call him!!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Oh how odd, I've no idea why you can't view it anymore. Sorry I can't help! There haven't been any granddaughter giggling updates recently do you've not missed much ☺


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I cannot view it either. (also not a troll)


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## Humspoff (Aug 26, 2014)

I get that message if I'm not logged onto my FB account...


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## Jokaz (Jul 3, 2015)

I cannot see it either. Did you make the page Friends only or private access to all when you blocked your trolls?
Sorry not much help as I'm not a facebook user just occasional browser.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I've adjust a couple of settings so maybe it's viewable now to one and all, other than tedious trolls  x


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> I've adjust a couple of settings so maybe it's viewable now to one and all, other than tedious trolls  x


So I can't be a troll, I can see barneys fb  x


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I still can't see it! Does that make me a troll?


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Jokaz said:


> I cannot see it either. Did you make the page Friends only or private access to all when you blocked your trolls?
> Sorry not much help as I'm not a facebook user just occasional browser.


Where do you live Jokaz? I might have restricted the wrong countries!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Goosey said:


> So I can't be a troll, I can see barneys fb  x


damn, I thought I'd blocked you  x

Fairlie I dont know why you cant see it - have you tried it within the last hour? i wonder if you have to be logged into facebook to see it?


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> damn, I thought I'd blocked you  x
> 
> Fairlie I dont know why you cant see it - have you tried it within the last hour? i wonder if you have to be logged into facebook to see it?


Thanks ! You know who your friends are 😥 x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I've changed some settings so you should all be able to view it, though frankly its not _that_ exciting, even though it is full of photos of beautiful barmy Barney. If it weren't for boring tedious trolls (who are related so it must be genetic) with too much time on their hands then all would be groovy again


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I just tried it now, but it might be at my end because we have bizarre firewall settings that restrict my access to all sorts of fun stuff. I can't even go to youtube.


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

fairlie said:


> I just tried it now, but it might be at my end because we have bizarre firewall settings that restrict my access to all sorts of fun stuff. I can't even go to youtube.


Fairlie, I can see it. You need to fix those settings. You're missing out on so much.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I got in on a second try. Wow, some seriously wonderful photos of your boy. I love pup in a bottle and watching tv and all the others too. I can't leave a comment though because I don't do facebook.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Glad you are all in now!


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Glad you are all in now!


Lou how did you put your barneys Facebook Link on here? X


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Goosey said:


> Lou how did you put your barneys Facebook Link on here? X


Go to your user CP page and edit your signature - grab the link for your facebook page and paste it in to the signature x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Well the liver cake did wonders! I took Barney to Shoreham beach today, a lovely huge expanse of mostly pebbly beach, and let him know I had liver in my bag. As you can see he would not leave my side no matter how many dogs or balls were close by!


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Well done Lou, best not share this with others in Brighton or you'll have another problem! 😉 x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

He even came back when he saw a dog he fancied playing with! Liver is a miracle cure! 😉x


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

When I was a kid I'd get invited to dine at the homes of friends. I'd always call home to ask permission and to (quietly) ask what was on the menu at home. My mum was a fabulous cook so nine times out of ten I'd have to lie and say sorry I could not stay.  Liver in your pocket is like that, you have to be able to outdo all the other interesting offers out there. Well done Lou!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Ha! Funnily enough my mum used to cook liver regularly and there is something very familiar smelling about my bag now  Liver has a nice homely smell but I couldn't eat liver again. I'm just delighted that Barney is a big fan of it and I enjoyed making it too - found a very easy recipe online  The wonders of the internet eh?!


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Yeah I can see his FB now - thanks x
I must of been detrolled!


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Ha! Funnily enough my mum used to cook liver regularly and there is something very familiar smelling about my bag now  Liver has a nice homely smell but I couldn't eat liver again. I'm just delighted that Barney is a big fan of it and I enjoyed making it too - found a very easy recipe online  The wonders of the internet eh?!


You must send me the recipe, I need a cure for SIDS recall  x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I will do, once I've found it again! X


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> I will do, once I've found it again! X


 Ok great thank you x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Liver cake recipe, easy peasy 

http://www.care2pets.co.uk/blog/liver-cake-recipe-for-dogs/


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Liver cake recipe, easy peasy
> 
> http://www.care2pets.co.uk/blog/liver-cake-recipe-for-dogs/


That looks dead simple, going to give it a try!  x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

*should I be worried?*



fairlie said:


> It is odd. If you're at the vet for his hip (I hope that is ok) maybe mention it. Odds are it's nothing, but most dogs see very well as they speak with extremely subtle almost indetectable ear twitches and lip curls.


Well thank you Fairlie for suggesting I get his eyes looked at. The vet said that his pupils weren't responding as they ought to... they weren't constricting quite as much as he expected  This could be because his eyes might have startled, and so pupils might be wider open if he was afraid of the torch in his eyes or, possibly, he could have PRA  Vet said to keep an eye on his vision in the dark and when people are around; possibly, as I had thought, too many legs in his viewing line might make him panic if he cant figure out which are my legs. Or he could eventually go blind. His parents were checked for PRA and were clear but the vet said that makes no difference.

His knee seemed fine, unless he does his holding and stretching his leg out more often, so I need to keep a check on that too. But the stretching is a way to get the knee back in place, though when Barney did that it was some hours after he was holding his leg up.

One testicle has descended and one is 'floating around' and out of the abdomen so no immediate need to castrate him.

I feel a bit concerned about his eyes and the vet said that he had a 5 year old blind dog that had PRA as a pup in the surgery yesterday who could manage perfectly well, especially as the owner walked around with a bell on his trouser bottoms


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## beekeeper (May 3, 2015)

Oh Lou, you must be worried. I do hope it isn't PRA. I thought if both parents were clear, their puppies couldn't get it?


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Well thank you Fairlie for suggesting I get his eyes looked at. The vet said that his pupils weren't responding as they ought to... they weren't constricting quite as much as he expected  This could be because his eyes might have startled, and so pupils might be wider open if he was afraid of the torch in his eyes or, possibly, he could have PRA  Vet said to keep an eye on his vision in the dark and when people are around; possibly, as I had thought, too many legs in his viewing line might make him panic if he cant figure out which are my legs. Or he could eventually go blind. His parents were checked for PRA and were clear but the vet said that makes no difference.
> 
> His knee seemed fine, unless he does his holding and stretching his leg out more often, so I need to keep a check on that too. But the stretching is a way to get the knee back in place, though when Barney did that it was some hours after he was holding his leg up.
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness Lou that sounds like a visit to the vets that we would all dread. Hopefully things don't turn out to be that bad. Fingers a toes crossed he doesn't go blind, but if the worst was to happen at least he has a fab mummy to care for him x x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

beekeeper said:


> Oh Lou, you must be worried. I do hope it isn't PRA. I thought if both parents were clear, their puppies couldn't get it?


I'd have thought that too but apparently not. Hopefully he is wrong abut that; I should research it.
Vet doesn't think its worth sending him to an eye specialist at this point, but will consider it if it looks more worrying. Though nothing can be done about it ....


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Barney's records show that both parents were 'clear by parentage' for pra NA and FN DNA (not sure what that is?) and the CCGB site states that PRA is inherited so I'm confused too...


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Lou I've just googled this and pra is *not* hopeless any longer. There are things you can be doing right now if it is true that he has it. You need to get him to a board certified opthamologist asap. Like with people there are drops which can delay the onset of blindness and they are learning more about this all the time. Have you insurance for him? I'd get him checked by a specialist if you can.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you Fairlie, that's very nice of you. The vet said there was nothing that could be done but also that he isn't an ophthalmologist. Thankfully I do have insurance so perhaps I should get him checked and not wait and see? I'm still confused as it seems it's inherited and if his parents were clear then presumably he should be ok? But he's an f2 so are his grandparents details relevant?


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I have no idea about the genetics, but I do know that medical advances on these sorts of things happen literally daily, and with something potentially so serious you should consider pulling out all the stops if you can. Call an animal hospital with an opthamologist and find out what they recommend as a first step and if your insurance will cover it.

Do you find his vision at night is any different?


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

His vision at might seems fine to me. If he wakes up early and it's still dark I'm the one tripping over things, not him. But perhaps I should walk him at night to see how he is. 

I think my insurance would only cover any tests if I went via my vet, though I've not checked that out, but will do. Thank you 😊


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a rotten time at the vets. Try not to panic and if you have concerns I would definitely seek a second opinion. 
I don't know much about either condition. 
Prcd-pra is inherited, if Barney's parents were carriers they would be clear, but their pups could still inherit.
Really really try not to worry and if you are get a second opinion.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Marzi. If his parents were carriers then presumably the records would show that rather than showing 'clear by parentage' ? 

I'll ask my vet to refer me first before going elsewhere for a second opinion. He might not have realised I have insurance so perhaps didn't suggest a referral at this point. 

Here he is tonight - (Barney not my vet, though he's almost just as gorgeous!)


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Did the parents have DNA testing or were they clear on BVA screening? If they were clear after screening, that just says they were clear when screened and it gives no guarantee that they will still be clear in the future.
DNA testing shows clear normal, clear carrier, affected - I think...


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I very much hope that the vets suspicions were wrong and his eyes are fine it does sound well worth getting checked out for your own peace of mind


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

hope you can read this, shows both parents clear by parentage for pra dna. 
Doesn't seem any cure according to my research by Google. I've emailed my vet asking to be referred.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks 2ndhandgal ☺


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

If you have paperwork with the grandparents names on you can check with the Kennel Club what tests have been done.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

From my understanding for the parents to be Clear by Parentage both of their parents needed to be DNA tested clear. If just one was they could be a carrier.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you. I'll check that out.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Oh it looks way too confusing to me I'm afraid. Barney's father and grandfather are from Jukee Doodles, his father shows:

YOGI (17") F1 Working Cockapoo (Ziggy x Bramble) : prcd-PRA DNA Clear by parentage, FN DNA Clear by parentage, Hip-scored 4/8 = 12, 
Luxating Patella manual exam = Excellent

and grandfather shows:
ZIGGY (15") DLRC Miniature Poodle: prcd-PRA DNA clear, FN DNA clear, Hip-scored 3/4 = 7, 
BVA Eye tested clear

I have a very complicated form from the breeder showing details of his mother but I'm afraid I can't understand a word of it 
http://www.cockerspanieldatabase.info/en/Cleveland-s-Missyneda/pedigree/48042/i


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Do you have the pedigree name of Yogis mother? The father being clear would mean he would not be affected but could be a carrier if the mother was not tested and clear.

I don't see anything there to say Barneys mother was clear? There are a few unaffected but that is not the same as DNA clear?


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

This is some info that I have from an early conversation on the CCGB site with someone from Jukee Doodles...

(Maisy is Barney's mother - she is shown as PRS DNA clear, on the details the breeder gave me)
_
Maisy was from a red Cocker Spaniel mum Cleveland's Missyneda who's full pedigree can be seen at this link http://www.cockerspanieldatabase.info/en/Cleveland-s-Missyneda/pedigree/48042/i note the father is show cocker and the mother is a dual purpose (show cocker x working cocker).
Maisy's dad is the late chocolate poodle Rin Tin Tin.

Yogi's mother is the working cocker Bramble and dad is our Ziggy as per the pictures below._


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

OK just had another quick look and Rin Tin Tin was tested and unaffected three times so not as good as DNA clear - I can't see any results for her mum. There could well be other info so I am not saying she is not clear by parentage - but I can not see any evidence so far.

I would however be more reassured by Barneys dad being described as clear by parentage as whilst I am no fan of JD, I do believe they understand what they are doing with health testing and seem to recall them getting rid of some other potential stud dogs when they were found to be carriers so a dog they describe as clear by parentage is very likely exactly that.

With one parent clear Barney could be a carrier but should be unaffected so whilst it may be worth getting him checked out for peace of mind I would not be too worried at the moment.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

thanks 2ndhandgal for taking the time to check it out. I'm confused by it all but came across this for Yogi's mother
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

I can ask the breeder for Maisie's details as I dont think I have them. Thanks again  x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I took him for a walk last night in the dark and he was fine, he even growled at a shadowy figure coming towards us a few yards away!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Ive just heard from the breeder as we are meeting for lunch next week and I've asked her for details of Maisy.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

The breeder says Maisy hasn't been tested as she is clear by parentage... Is that enough?


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I would ask which of her parents were tested with which results and where you can verify this as it is not showing on the kennel club database


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

It all sounds like good news, especially the seeing in the dark thing. Lou I'm sorry if I opened this can of worry worms needlessly.

There is no cure but vets here are doing trials with supplements that have postponed blindness for up to three years. At the very least I hope this thread will convince newbies of how critical checking the paperwork on all the health tests is.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Don't worry Fairlie, I'm glad you suggested I ask the vet. I'd rather know sooner than later if he is likely to have problems with his eyes further down the line.

2ndhandgal, I have asked the breeder for clarification and will report back. Meanwhile I'm waiting for the vet to get back to me re a referral

thank you both


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

fairlie said:


> It all sounds like good news, especially the seeing in the dark thing. Lou I'm sorry if I opened this can of worry worms needlessly.
> 
> There is no cure but vets here are doing trials with supplements that have postponed blindness for up to three years. At the very least I hope this thread will convince newbies of how critical checking the paperwork on all the health tests is.


The breeder just wrote that 'Maisy’s mother was not PRN tested her dad was and his name is RIN TIN TIN chocolate miniature poodle.'

I don't know why her mother wasn't tested and what this means for Barney. 

Definitely checking paperwork for newbies is indeed vital


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

OK - that is what I thought from results I had found.

If two dogs are bred together and one is clear the pup can not be affected regardless of the status of the other. However if the other parent is either affected or a carrier they can produce pups which are carriers. So when Maisy was bred the breeder would have been correct in saying she could not be affected - this is not the same as clear by parentage though - for that both parents need to be tested as clear. 

So there is a chance Maisy is a carrier - this only becomes a problem if she is bred to another carrier or an affected dog - but her owner really needs to learn the difference as Maisy is not genetically clear by parentage at all. 

In this case if Yogi is indeed clear by parentage you should genetically be clear. JD should have a far better grasp of genetics so I doubt have made the same mistake.

This website hopefully explains it a bit better.

http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/optigen_PRA.htm

Hopefully all is well and Barney is just a daft pup who sometimes loses his mum when he worries - Molly has done this in a crowd too.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you very much 2ndhandgal, I really appreciate your checking that out for me. I'll try and pass that on to the breeder who probably will be horrified and embarrassed perhaps. 

I'm still waiting to hear from my vet for a referral which hopefully will clarify Barney's situation. 

Thanks again


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

It is a worry for you but I'm sure Barney will be fine, the chances that he is are much higher than otherwise. I'm pretty sure that Jukee Doodles are quite keen to breed totally clear pups and try to ensure both parents are clear, but I maybe wrong. Now that so many Cockapoo's are being bred from further generations, it is a worry that owners are presuming all dogs will be clear and I'm sure there are lots of dodgy breeders (I know Barney's wasn't) who don't even care or test and yet put 'clear by parentage' on adverts, and buyers who don't know so much about what to look for just believe them and don't ask for proof.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Dawn . I agree, I think that Jukee Doodles, while maybe not without fault, would make sure their dogs are clear. 
I have all the names of Barney's mothers background (I think I have anyhow! It gets a bit mind boggling) but no health tests to see. I've also got an eye test result that appears ok, I'll upload it shortly. 

Thanks again ☺


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Oh what a worry for you, I'm just catching up, good luck with it all, it's starting to sound ok though I think. It's like 'Who do you think you are?' for dogs


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Lola could be offered a joint of beef and would still want to go play... However, " bye then... See ya later" and walking the other way does the trick!  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

2ndhandgal, I'm a bit confused by this part of your message as it seems to be contradictory :
"If two dogs are bred together and one is clear the pup can not be affected regardless of the status of the other. However if the other parent is either affected or a carrier they can produce pups which are carriers"

It seems that only one parent need be tested, as I was told before getting him, but then he could be a carrier if his mother was? Thanks!


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sorry - I knew what I meant 

There are three possible results affected, carrier and clear. A dog which is either clear or a carrier will not be affected itself.

To produce a dog who is affected the parents need to either be affected or carriers. Two affected dogs will produce all affected pups, a carrier and a clear will produce some clear and some carrier, and a carrier and an affected will produce some carrier and some affected. Two clears will produce all clear pups.

So for Maisy as her dad was tested as clear the only possible outcomes for her are carrier or clear - she could not be affected as one of her parents was clear. However depending on the status of the other dog she could be a carrier and if bred to another dog who is either affected or a carrier she could produce affected pups. Hopefully Yogi is indeed clear meaning Barney should be clear.

Yes - as long as one parent is clear Barney should be OK - but he could be a carrier as his mums status is not known.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you, that makes sense! I will pass that on to the breeder and see what she says.

Many thanks again


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

No problem - I like genetics 

Hope Barney is OK which is the main thing


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

I've found it very interesting. Thanks 2nd.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I'm glad you like genetics - I find it very confusing!

Of course Maisy may, or may not, be checked if she is bred from again, which I believe the breeder wants to do, but that takes time and I'd prefer to get Barney checked out by a vets referral before then. I'm still waiting to hear back from him 

Thank you


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

This looks promising, and so easy to follow that even Barney (failing eyesight or not) could understand it


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I totally understand you getting Barney checked out but I agree I think all should be fine 

As a side note anyone breeding their dog needs to learn about genetics as the results can be tragic if they get it wrong.

This girl is the product of a breeder either not knowing or not caring what they were doing when breeding. She is the result of two dogs both having the merle gene being bred together and creating a double merle. Double merles can have a whole host of problems caused by this and she was born blind and deaf and dumped on the streets as a young pup - presumably as she had no commercial value. She was put to sleep just before her first birthday as despite very best efforts she was haunted by neurological problems


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Bloody hell, I have no idea what the merle gene is but I'll look it up. Definitely, breeders should really know what they're doing.


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## beekeeper (May 3, 2015)

Oh how terribly sad 2nd. Did you know the poor dog personally?

I didn't know that about Merle genes. I only knew it as a coat type.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

It is the coat type caused by the gene. Fine if done responsibly with only one merle parent but done badly and double merles are created a disaster.

Yes she was adopted by my friend - she was a couple of months older than Chance and one of her friends as a puppy - I think this is my favourite picture of her in a sleepy pile with Chance and my friends other collie 










She was incredibly smart and coped with the blindness and deafness very well indeed - but the other problems were just too much for her to cope with


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## beekeeper (May 3, 2015)

Poor little love. It's made me sad to think people could be so irresponsible.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

So sad and to think it could have been avoided. It looks like she knew love, comfort and even joy though in her short life. That was a blessing.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

In the absence of any response from my vet, I contacted Laboklin to see if they could do a DNA test using a swab from Barney's cheek. I told them about his parentage and this was the response:

"If both parents are clear of prcd PRA, then you puppy is hereditary clear and cannot be affected by the prcd PRA form of PRA or pass the mutation to its offspring, and you do not need to test it."

Which is as I thought, but then, as my vet said it wasn't always inherited, I asked the very helpful Mansour to confirm if this was the case (thinking my vet was wrong and this is his response :
"There are other causes of PRA that can be genetic or otherwise. These are diagnosed by the veterinary eye examination. The prcd PRA DNA test checks if the dog is clear, carrier or affected by the prcd PRA form of PRA which is commonly found in Cocker Spaniels and Poodles."

So although Barney can see at night and can see me from a distance, I'm still a bit concerned after the vet said he didn't respond as they should have (not just his pupils not contracting enough but something about the reflection in the back of his eye...) I guess I should chase my vet up for a referral? Or stop obsessing and get on with packing?!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

If it were me I'd pack and put getting a referral with an eye specialist low down on my to do list. I'd bump it up in priority if I saw any more signs of questionable eyesight. I can't follow all the genetic stuff, have you established that oth of his parents tested clear?


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I cant follow the genetic stuff either, but his father was DNA tested and clear, his mother was apparently clear by parentage, but as its not necessarily inherited this might be irrelevant. I will wait till I see the vet next week and carry on sorting and chucking out rubbish and carry on packing.


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## beekeeper (May 3, 2015)

So it sounds Barney won't have inherited PRA but that there's a small chance it can occur in other forms. I agree with fairlie, get it checked if you're still worried.

Packing? Did you buy somewhere? You beat me to it!
I'm still waiting for the slowest solicitors in Suffolk!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

All solicitors are slow, it seems to me! Have you not found anywhere yet? I've got a cute flat to go to, probably in the new year; though the agent says it could be before Christmas but all agents are fibbers 😊

I will see my vet next week for Barney's next flea treatment, and maybe he'll have replied to my email before then and referred me. Either that or he's ignoring me as a worried obsessive mummy 😯

☺


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## beekeeper (May 3, 2015)

Yes found somewhere that will be nice when I've given it some TLC. Hoping to move before Christmas if the solicitors wake up. Then it will be PUPPY TIME!

Good luck at the vets when you go.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you, and good luck with the solicitors! 😉


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

A quick update for anyone interested - I saw the vet yesterday who thought that Barney's eyes looked 'better' than they had previously. He wondered if he had been over cautious in his previous examination but suggested I see him again in a month for his next flea treatment before ruling out any PRA issues. 

Then said that in a years time, if Barney cant see me on the beach at dusk then the situation will be different... So good news and, err slightly confusing news! But I'm going to forget about it for now and get on with my chucking out and packing, which is tedious!


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

Thanks for the update Lou. Good luck with the packing.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Back to recall, we are away and Rufus has twice refused to return when called away from another dog. I can't figure out emoticons but if I could I would insert three horror guys here! I can't stress enough that it is USE IT OR LOSE IT witjhh dog training.??????. Ah now all I need is an apostrophe.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Recall does seem to be unpredictable, but I find his pulling on the lead more annoying at the moment


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

I love the way we all lurch from success to failure and back again 
Your vet sounds a bit of a joker?
I do not enjoy Dot bouncing up and down my leg particularly when she is wet and muddy


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I don't know if he's a joker or not - maybe he's just covering all options without really knowing  I'm not thinking about it anymore - unless I have to


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Janey153 said:


> I don't know if he's a joker or not - maybe he's just covering all options without really knowing  I'm not thinking about it anymore - unless I have to


Very wise. 
Will you be moving before Christmas? You must have more than enough to think about.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

No I suspect it'll be January but I've got much chucking out/selling to do which is why I'm making a start now! Already made £150 by auctioning some stuff  Plus its a relief from thinking about Paris at the moment


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

I think barney is like Sid and hit adolescence, SIDS has turned into a monster  the worst of his behaviour being when I let him out of the kitchen he lunges himself at me and when I'm sitting down he jumps from the other side of the room and try's to eat me!!  this is an issue when we have visitor to! 
Yes I've tried the standing still turning my back,which hasn't helped so if anyone out there can give me advice I would be extremely grateful. I'm kind of at my wits end with his sudden behaviour. 
He's alway been an excitable dog but this is too much! 
But on the other hand when he's being good he's a cute and full of cuddles


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Ha ha, Sid's just trying to show you how much he loves you (by eating you)!

It sounds like you can anticipate this behaviour though so I would try and do something about the trigger situations eg scatter kibble as you enter the kitchen and when he's eaten it have a bit in your hand for a sit command and maybe some 'close' or 'watch' training. Before you sit down call him over to another part of the room for a little play and then practise 'settle' - I sat on the settee with a pot of lovely things and I put a blanket down for Poppy, every time she laid on the blanket quietly next to me, with her head down ideally, I dropped a treat (in the hope that she stayed in a 'down' position) and quietly said 'good settle' without a fuss or even eye contact, it was flipping hard work because she was so excitable and this takes a lot of self control! But I'm just trying to think of sort of distraction ideas for the crucial mad-dog times


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I get him jumping up at me in the kitchen if I've dared to leave him there for an hour while I have a peaceful cuppa back in bed in the morning! It's like I've been away for years... Sounds like Marion has some good suggestions  x


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Ha ha Marion I was hoping he could show me another way of loving me I would rather a lick than half eaten ears etc! 

Some good ideas, it's definetly going to be hard work. It seems that when he's that excited not even food can control him. The situation is probably not helped by the fact that Molly is a scatter brain too and very vocal when I come in. He learns a lot from her


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

You have my sympathies, Poppy was a furry blur of hormones, instinct and energy (with sharp teeth) and it felt like little could be achieved at times  Although we constantly tried things and seeds must have been planted, I do honestly think that so many issues were solved purely by time and growing  So sit back and open the wine


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

I think you're so right Marion, when I look back at what Molly was like and what she's like now! Yes she still has her faults some of which Sid hasn't,but overall a lot of her ways have changed. She's calmed down a lot ! You must be right it's like the seeds are sown and it's only when they feel it's the right time they show us what they have learnt. I think this is what make us love them so much. Fun filled dogs lots of character and lovable! 
Don't worry the wines open already!


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

I've just discovered gin  Puppy days would have been _much_ easier if I'd found it earlier


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Don't like Gin but love Sloe gin so make sure I make a batch of that each year! Dudley has just started jumping up at us again when we come in - he has not done this for almost 3 years!! It is so difficult telling other people to please stop fussing him as he jumps up, its usually too late by the time I do say it.


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Dawn, I never liked gin but there are some amazingly tasty ones out there now and a tonic called fever tree which is delicious. Mmm, yes, sloe/damson gin is also gorgeous


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Mazzapoo said:


> Dawn, I never liked gin but there are some amazingly tasty ones out there now and a tonic called fever tree which is delicious. Mmm, yes, sloe/damson gin is also gorgeous


It's like an olive - you never really like your first one, but you pick away and end up loving them!
I've just had some very special Yorkshire gin! Mason I think - delicious!! 
I'm a convert from vodka to gin....
I recommend gin mare & opihr! 
Dawn - drink more gin until you like it!!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Make mine a vodka please ☺


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Make mine a vodka please ☺


I'm more of a southern comfort kind of girl only ever had vodka jelly 😉 x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Oh you're dead sophisticated aint ya?! 😅 x


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Janey153 said:


> Oh you're dead sophisticated aint ya?! 😅 x


I wouldn't say that not after a few glasses 😂 x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Yes, I can well imagine  x


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