# Jekyll and Hyde



## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, i love our little Maisie and she's bring us lots of joy but every so often she just goes wild and crazed and growls and bites and scratches and won't stop!! We both look like we self harm!! We've tried distraction and shouting no but she just won't listen. Man, puppies are hard work! 

On the plus side she is toileting pretty well and last night slept from 11pm - 6am with no whimpering or barking at all


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

Mable would have a mad half hour where she just charged around... presume they just have too much energy maybe thats what it is with Maisie. I think I'd just try engaging her in some sort of game or ball throwing or even get treats out and see if she'll respond to them and get her to work for them, unless by then she wont concentrate for training. If she's biting ,which puppies do, have a toy in your hand and encourage her to bite that rather your hand. Maybe keep a special squeeky toy which would distract her when she's like this, but then put it away after playing. Dont worry the phase wont last and yes puppies are hard work... but you'll get there x


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## kendal (Jul 16, 2009)

its just bing consistent. 


try leaving a lead on her so you can get controle of her without having to touch her. 

try screaming realy loud or set up a situation you know she will start bighting and keep someone about who can make a loud noise or back something noisey together to startle her.


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## jaimia (May 19, 2011)

great pic of the girls Kendal x


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Dexter is angelic all day and turns into this crazy little biting monster for about an hour each evening. I either take him in the garden for lots of play or I give him a raw meaty veal bone. The bone is more effective as it really tires him out pulling and chewing at it. I'm afraid all of us with puppies are going through the same thing! (love the new photo Kendal)


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

Vic3112 said:


> Don't get me wrong, i love our little Maisie and she's bring us lots of joy but every so often she just goes wild and crazed and growls and bites and scratches and won't stop!! We both look like we self harm!! We've tried distraction and shouting no but she just won't listen. Man, puppies are hard work!


Hi Vic3112 - Could you describe these "outbursts" a little more ?
Do they come on all of a sudden ?
Do Maisie's eyes appear any different (during the aggression - and then after it) ?
Is it more like a "fit" of aggression as opposed to a "leave my things alone" protective bout ?
Does she come out of it as suddenly as she goes into one ?
Does she look sheepish and very sorry once the bout has ended ?

Lastly - what cross is she ? Is her Mum a Orange English Show Cocker ?

Stephen xx


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## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

Hi Stephen, her mum is a black and tan show cocker. 

Maisie will just be playing nicely with her toy and then discover that my hand is much more tasty to chew and will start chewing and biting me. I try to push her away with a harsh NO but she then starts to growl and bites me even more!! Her eyes don't look any different i don't think but he does seem to get very mad. Last night i put her in her pen for 'time out' and she quietened down within a couple of minutes and then licked my face as if to apologise.

She is fast asleep like a little angel now so me and hubby are quietly watching TV not daring to move  x


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## Ali79 (Mar 30, 2011)

Hello Victoria - Beau went through this stage but it was always aimed at my daughter who is 17! She never growled but would bark at her and keep jumping up and biting her and wouldn't give up! She too looked like she had self-harmed! Our trainer then said that Madeleine (my daughter) needed to push her away with a firm "NO" and if she continued after one "NO" she got time out for a couple of minutes in another room where she couldn't see us. After a couple of days of being consistent with this she stopped as hates to be shut away from us. Good luck


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## mandym (Jun 5, 2011)

I think this is simply her puppy mad half hour as i call it and perhaps she is also seeing ho far she can push you which she has discovered ends up in time out so you are doing the right thing.The minute the rough behaviour starts end the game immediatey so she soon realises that the silly behaviour has no rewards.Most pups go through a silly mouthing stage but as long as its corrected ( as kendal mentioned making a loud noise to startle them and end the mouthing) it shouldnt last long xxxx


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## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

I think this is just a phase all our puppies go through. For me it was usually for about 30mins after I had put the kids to bed in the evenings. I put it down to the fact that Obi was bored and annoyed at being ignored while I was seeing to the kids upstairs (Obi is not allowed upstairs). His play would quickly turn aggressive and a firm NO didn't seem to work. I tried putting him in another room to calm down but I always felt guilty and would go get him and he would start again! I discussed it with my trainer and she suggested taking him for a walk which isn't an option for me as a single parent. So, then she suggested doing an activity to "brain drain" him and so I got the treats out and started doing training sessions with him. It kept him focussed and after about 15-20mins he was much calmer. I still do this most evenings (whether he has gone bonkers or not!) and when we are done he has not only learnt something new but is then relaxed enough to just flop next to me on the sofa. 

Try all the advice from everyone here and see what works for you.


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## Mogdog (Feb 6, 2011)

Its interesting to read that they all seem to have a "mad half hour". Maisie certainly did as a pup, and it was always in the evening. She would go mad shredding newspaper making the place look a complete mess, and would then flop! We didn't get the biting thing but they are all different. 

I will use the tips other people have given, if needed, with new pup.


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## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

Mogdog said:


> I will use the tips other people have given, if needed, with new pup.


am green with envy


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## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks a lot for the advice guys, i will keep persevering with the NO and time out. I have a gig tonight and feel a may have to explain my cuts and scratches to everyone haha  x


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Yes I have bruises on my arm where my naughty little Dexter has bitten me during his crazy time!


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

Vic3112 said:


> Hi Stephen, her mum is a black and tan show cocker.
> Maisie will just be playing nicely with her toy and then discover that my hand is much more tasty to chew and will start chewing and biting me. I try to push her away with a harsh NO but she then starts to growl and bites me even more!! Her eyes don't look any different i don't think but he does seem to get very mad. Last night i put her in her pen for 'time out' and she quietened down within a couple of minutes and then licked my face as if to apologise.


OK - That sounds good - as the more severe version (hence my questions) could have been linked to "Rage Syndrome" - I say "could" as it is in itself rare - though none the less it does exist.

One suggestion (and it is only a suggestion - but it works for us and those that have chosen to use it) - is to put your hands around her muzzle (around her mouth keeping it closed) and gently squeeze until she pulls away - a more assertive pup will come back at you so do it again slightly harder - and again if need be - it is something YOU must win.


Dogs are pack animals and even when "play" fighting in their own litter they are actually working our who is top dog and what the pecking order is. Basically it is not a game to them - it is a way of working out their social structure. 

If you bring a puppy who is dominant into your home and if it thinks it needs to be above You / your partner and mostly kids - it needs to be shown that it is the lowest in the pecking order.
A more dominant pup will take on a more assertive role within your household and as such will worry more; be more aggressive and snappy - it thinks it should be "looking after" You not the other way around.

If you observe dogs socially and if you watched pups with Mum when little - you will see Mum "correct" pups if they get too much - normally with a deep growl and "snap" at them - they soon learn and back down - this is effectively what YOU have to do - you need to show your puppy that YOU are in fact a bigger more aggressive dog - and YOU do not like the game they are playing - so YOU need to give the short sharp shock dominant barked "NO !" at them.

It is the same principle as having something loud to shake at them.

Some people say that they dare not hurt - or cannot get hold of the pup around the mouth - but it is worth a try - You must keep you pup on the bottom of the pile "pack-wise" - as that is where it will be most happiest. xx

Stephen XX


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## strof51 (Sep 26, 2009)

I have always used the method Stephen has explained and it does put your puppy in its place, so don't be afraid to us it and in as short time the pup will learn that this means stop.
Its 6:15 am and I have just watched Poppy put Rosie in her place.
A bit of boisterous play and Rosie started to go to far, Poppy grabbed hold of her just firmly enough for her to yelp this calmed her down for a bit then she started again. Poppy stood over her and pushed her to the ground so she rolled onto her back grabbed her leg till she yelped, she kept her on her back till she calmed down then let her up, end of game. They are now both lying on their bed asleep.
Poppy is doing the job that I did to her to show her that she is bottom of the pile. I know this mite seem harsh but in the end you get a well behaved dog, they may still mouth your hand but without nipping you.


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## jools (Nov 11, 2010)

Thank goodness its not just Dexter ........... when we first got him we all looked at one another with despair as we thought we had the naughtiest puppy in the world ....... we've used the mouth closed thing which does work but perserverance is a must as we don't need it very often now but time out works massively as my youngest is a target as Dex thinks he is an easy target but hes timing dex out behind the child gate and Bens got lots more respect from him!!! But we changed his food & that seems to have calmed him down & also walk him at 8pm to wear him out!!! Its hard work but i think everyone elses right its the hard work you put in at the beginning!!


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

Vic3112 said:


> ...... but every so often she just goes wild and crazed and growls and bites and scratches and won't stop!! We both look like we self harm!!


Having sat and given this some thought - especially as several other people have reported similar traits - we can honestly say that we have not experienced such issues with any of our puppies nor have we had reports back asking for methods to resolve it either. If you fancied taking a look at one or two of our puppy "update" videos you will see them "at play" - this can get heated to a degree with pups but rarely if at all with humans.
We actually go through all the "dominance pack play" with our customers and explain the need for the hand over mouth bit in detail - as dogs are pack animals and respond to being kept at the bottom of the pile when in their new Family. We would be interested to hear of any JD pup that goes through these "frenzied" bouts to the degree of leaving marks.

We do use Working Cocker Mums partly for their famed "soft mouth" trait though ALL puppies will "play" using paws and mouth.

A simple question would be - Does Your breeder clip their puppy's nails before collection ??.......because puppies grow long hooks if left and these are very sharp - an easy way to tell if they need clipping is if the pup has difficulty walking on carpet or if the nails readily hook into jumpers.

As Julia had a dog grooming business - she baths; micro-chips; cleans ears and clips the nails of all our pups the day they are collected.

Stephen xx


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## Bini (Jul 4, 2011)

Really helpful for me as well to read this thread. Cider takes my children as his main target. And he has his mad half hour after his dinner time, before my kids go to bed! He seems like a compete different dog, but I love it that they crash out after and they are like little angels asleep. Lots is said in the thread already, but I only would suggest, to put Maisy for time out behind a stairgate or in a different room, rather than in her crate. We are working hard, that the crate is only a positive place with treats or food or simple for a nap in peace.
We put Cider in the crate at dinner time and we all sit right next to it at the table. I thought it will never work, but he settles right away and knows after waiting nicely for us having our dinner, it cannot be long for getting his 
Good luck and enjoy the puppyhood


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

Bini said:


> ......Cider takes my children as his main target.....


Hi Bini - Children are always the first "target" when an assertive pup thinks of moving up the pecking order. Pups in a litter "play fight" for a reason - they are always using this play to find and assert themselves within a "pack" environment - and when with their new families - children are the most likely to "play fight" with them not knowing that the pup is gauging the child's ability.
We always suggest that children don't end up playing the "hand game" with a pup as children who are considered should be lower in the pecking order will allow the pup to exert a more dominant role and then biting and growling can increase. If the pup is left to think it is scaling the social ladder in Your family - they become more anxious; more nervy and more aggressive as they feel it is their duty to protect and keep kids in line ! If your pup is shown that it is on the bottom of the pile (by slightly more assertive children putting them in their place too) pups normally relent - they are by far the most loving; playful; cuddly and happiest when at the bottom of ladder of Your family "pack".

Stephen x


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

fallon said:


> Dogs are animals, not human beings. They are pack animals by nature. Every pack has a leader, known as the alpha animal, who dominates and leads the other members of the pack. The alpha is the boss who makes decisions for the entire pack. Usually the pack will have an alpha male and an alpha female. All the other members of the pack form a hierarchy of dominance and submission where everyone has a place.
> 
> In the wild, the alpha dog is the dog who has established itself as the leader of the pack by controlling the behavior of the other dogs. When you have a dog for a pet, it is important that you let your dog know that you are the alpha dog so that it will listen to you and respect you. The only way to do this is by training your dog.
> In your home, you and your family become your dog's pack, as do any other dogs you may have. It is your responsibility to establish yourself in the alpha position. If you fail to do this, your dog will do it as a natural behavior. Many people assume that they are automatically in charge just because humans are superior to animals. But are you really the pack leader? Does your dog know it?
> ...


can i just pick up on this,the pack theory has long since been disproved, wolves live in family groups so naturally the breeding pair are dominant over their offspring, wild canids dont fight for order within their group, in times of plenty they all feast together but in leaner times yes the breeding pair eat first as they have pups to feed, its all about surviving and procreation, so in domestic dogs there is no reason to be 'alpha' we provide everything they need, dogs arnt tying to rise in rank and become our leaders  All training should be done using positive reinforcement, dogs are very smart and soon learn to manipulate this so mutually beneficial, this is how great bonds of friendship are built between dog and human


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

fallon said:


> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdog.htm
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdogrules.htm


these links are based on true studies

http://gooddogschool.webs.com/What is pack theory.pdf

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

I am trying to find out a lot about this at the moment. There appears to be two camps of dog training, the pack leader theory and then some more modern trainers who are saying this has been disproved. I am trying to find a local obedience class for my new puppy but I have yet to find one who doesn't use the pack theory method so that I can talk to them in more detail.


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> these links are based on true studies
> 
> http://gooddogschool.webs.com/What is pack theory.pdf
> 
> http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


Thank you for the links. I have just ordered this;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Other-End-L...678X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310900002&sr=8-1

Looks fascinating and has good reviews. It will give me some good holiday reading!


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

This is another book that was reccomended to me by a trainer on a another forum.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Culture-Cl...7054/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310900551&sr=8-1


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Sezra said:


> I am trying to find out a lot about this at the moment. There appears to be two camps of dog training, the pack leader theory and then some more modern trainers who are saying this has been disproved. I am trying to find a local obedience class for my new puppy but I have yet to find one who doesn't use the pack theory method so that I can talk to them in more detail.


Lol i think you can tell which camp im in . Heres another excellent link http://www.tarynblyth.co.za/articles/pack-theory-fact-or-fiction/

good luck with your search for a positive trainer, dont know if youve had a look on here http://www.apdt.co.uk/




Sezra said:


> Thank you for the links. I have just ordered this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ive not read that one, but funnily enough it happens to be on my list of books to read im a big fan of Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson too


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

fallon said:


> Dogs respect their leaders, so being the pack leader strengthens the special bond of love and trust between human and dog. Even if you are not a natural leader in our human world you can lead your dog.
> been involved with rottweilles and gsd and having to deal with dogs that come to me with problems I may be old school when it comes to dog training i am very strict at the end of the day dogs are animals Iv seen a westie do a lot of damange to a 3yr old boys face. why he was in a family that treated the dog like a baby he had no leader he could do as he wanted. its like children as parents we need to let our yes mean yes and no mean no. I had a call from a family having problembs with her rottweiller male he was 18mts old he would not let them take his food away he would show his lips and if pushed would bite. I had this male in my kennel for 3 weeks he tried it on with me but never did it again! I showed him I was the boss not him.Becoming a dog owner means you need to become a pack leader. Whatever breed of dog you choose you need to lead your dog through life.having run a dog training club with over 500 members the main problem with dogs is Bad ownership we all have our own ways of training i can take 4 rottweiller males in a filed for a run and they know I am the boss they respect and also trust me. why as i am there leader


how did you show the rottie who was boss if you dont mind me asking?


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

On another thread there is mention of how like baby/toddler books the puppy books are. There are many differing "experts" opinions on rearing babies as well, with for example advice on demand feeding vs.regimented 4 hourly feeding, and leaving the baby to cry or not. To my mind, with puppies, it would make sense to mimic the behaviour of the pups mother, and how the pup would be treated in the wild, I tried to raise my babies in the manner of cultures where "experts" have yet to interfere and hope with the help of my older dog, and the experiences of friends on the forum, to raise Izzy as she would have been in her natural environment.


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

ali-s.j. said:


> On another thread there is mention of how like baby/toddler books the puppy books are. There are many differing "experts" opinions on rearing babies as well, with for example advice on demand feeding vs.regimented 4 hourly feeding, and leaving the baby to cry or not. To my mind, with puppies, it would make sense to mimic the behaviour of the pups mother, and how the pup would be treated in the wild, I tried to raise my babies in the manner of cultures where "experts" have yet to interfere and hope with the help of my older dog, and the experiences of friends on the forum, to raise Izzy as she would have been in her natural environment.


dogs dont live in the wild they became domesticated thousands of years ago..


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Indeed, but do they not still conform to the same pattern of behaviour as pack animals?


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

fallon said:


> by using techniques and experience and knowing how the breed thinks, rottweillers are my first love have bred shown and trained them from a child


theres really no need to be defensive, i was genuinly interested 

i too have grown up with large breeds my family are all dog people



ali-s.j. said:


> Indeed, but do they not still conform to the same pattern of behaviour as pack animals?


 dogs are social animals yes, do they live and interact as a pack no not as such, its a very loose and fluid relationship, unlike a wolf pack which consists of a breeding pair and their offspring ...even feral dogs dont have the same structure as the wolf. This link explains it far better than i can

http://www.tarynblyth.co.za/articles/pack-theory-fact-or-fiction/


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## Bini (Jul 4, 2011)

Thank you, Stephen,
your words made me more aware again, how important it is, that the kids end the play by turning around with folded arms, when Cider is biting. The other alternative I give the kids is to give him his toy to bit in instead of their hands and feet. If Cider is too hyper, and would even bit in their heels, we seperate him behind the stairgates into the kitchen. I have to remind me that I try the kids to sort it out themselves instead of me, so that Cider learns that way as well, that they are able to do so. Ahhhh, education every single minute of the day isn't it?


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi Bini - Children are always the first "target" when an assertive pup thinks of moving up the pecking order. Pups in a litter "play fight" for a reason - they are always using this play to find and assert themselves within a "pack" environment - and when with their new families - children are the most likely to "play fight" with them not knowing that the pup is gauging the child's ability.
> We always suggest that children don't end up playing the "hand game" with a pup as children who are considered should be lower in the pecking order will allow the pup to exert a more dominant role and then biting and growling can increase. If the pup is left to think it is scaling the social ladder in Your family - they become more anxious; more nervy and more aggressive as they feel it is their duty to protect and keep kids in line ! If your pup is shown that it is on the bottom of the pile (by slightly more assertive children putting them in their place too) pups normally relent - they are by far the most loving; playful; cuddly and happiest when at the bottom of ladder of Your family "pack".
> 
> Stephen x


just how should a child put a puppy in its place?


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

The same way an adult should !

PS: I'm totally in "Team Fallon" when it comes to "pack instinct" !
I live; breathe; work; rest and play with all my dogs - I know them all - and I know; feel; knowledge and use "pack" in everything we do xx
Domesticated or not - they have a social tiered system in everything they do - most accept it and some challenge it - I know my place and I they know mine too - as do they know Julia's. Females are different to Males and they react differently to each of us.
Again - don't always believe everything you read in black and white - go get your hands dirty with people who work with dogs and you may pick up some valuable insights first hand - then when you offer advise and information - You know it to be true - first-hand x

Stephen xx


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Jukee Doodles said:


> The same way an adult should !
> 
> PS: I'm totally in "Team Fallon" when it comes to "pack instinct" !
> I live; breathe; work; rest and play with all my dogs - I know them all - and I know; feel; knowledge and use "pack" in everything we do xx
> ...


well how should a child put an adult in its place then? lol

oh gotya! i mean how would an adult put a puppy in its place?


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## curt3007 (May 28, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> well how should a child put an adult in its place then? lol


doodlebug were not talking about children putting adults in their place, think you are getting a bit mixed


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

fallon said:


> i dont know what you are getting at ?


i was responding to this -------If your pup is shown that it is on the bottom of the pile (by slightly more assertive children putting them in their place too) pups normally relent.

i just asked what was meant by it, what does a child or adult do to put a pup in its place? i seriously dont know, do you?




curt3007 said:


> doodlebug were not talking about children putting adults in their place, think you are getting a bit mixed


ive amended my post


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> how did you show the rottie who was boss if you dont mind me asking?


If you don't know the answer to this question then I would assume that you have not worked with dogs. 

My experience of working with them is that Rotties are great dogs who are one of the best I have come across at reading the body language of both other dogs and humans alike. They respond well to confidence, consistency and acting with good intentions around them (I don't know how to elegantly explain this feeling - perhaps Fallon could help me out here?). They seem to be aware of weakness and/or shifty behaviour. They are easy to train and loyal to the hilt. Probably why they make great guard dogs and much loved family pets.

Julia


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Jukee Doodles said:


> If you don't know the answer to this question then I would assume that you have not worked with dogs.
> 
> My experience of working with them is that Rotties are great dogs who are one of the best I have come across at reading the body language of both other dogs and humans alike. They respond well to confidence, consistency and acting with good intentions around them (I don't know how to elegantly explain this feeling - perhaps Fallon could help me out here?). They seem to be aware of weakness and/or shifty behaviour. They are easy to train and loyal to the hilt. Probably why they make great guard dogs and much loved family pets.
> 
> Julia


 i have worked with dogs in various contexts, but i was just wondered what training methods were used

and im a huge rottie fan myself, my parents breed was Akita and they got to know a fair number of the rottie crowd Im not a fan of how some people believe, especially because they are a large guarding breed, that they need to 'dominate' them, they respond so much better to positive training methods and its much more pleasent and fun for the dog.


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## Anne's Daisy (Jun 25, 2011)

Hi finding it hard to find time to use site at the moment.Got daisy home safe and sound and things are going quite well.She is doing really well with her house training we have very few accidents in the house if she is taken out every hour or so and she has amazed me with the tricks she can already do ( sit,give paw,lie down and we are working on roll over)Shes only 10 weeks old! BUT she has started to growl ,bark and snap at me and only me it does seem to happen when shes been excited and i try to stop her doing a certain behaviour.It has worried me as i keep thinking shes becoming aggressive.I think she could be bored because she seems very intelligent.Any tips please, i so want this to work but i have started to get a bit upset.She is my first dog as I've said and I'm so inexperienced.

Thanks Anne x


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## kendal (Jul 16, 2009)

Anne's Daisy said:


> Hi finding it hard to find time to use site at the moment.Got daisy home safe and sound and things are going quite well.She is doing really well with her house training we have very few accidents in the house if she is taken out every hour or so and she has amazed me with the tricks she can already do ( sit,give paw,lie down and we are working on roll over)Shes only 10 weeks old! BUT she has started to growl ,bark and snap at me and only me it does seem to happen when shes been excited and i try to stop her doing a certain behaviour.It has worried me as i keep thinking shes becoming aggressive.I think she could be bored because she seems very intelligent.Any tips please, i so want this to work but i have started to get a bit upset.She is my first dog as I've said and I'm so inexperienced.
> 
> Thanks Anne x


she is just pushing boundrys just like kids do, trying to work out what she can get away with. just be concistent, its early days to start calling it agression. if you dont wat to touch her when she is like that leve a lead on her and let her drag it. that way you can get controle of her without having to touch her. also set up a situation you know will trigger the behavur you dont want so you a prepared to correct it, rather than waitng for the next one and having to think on the spot.


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## strof51 (Sep 26, 2009)

I am firmly in the pack camp, and I believe that a dog that is brought up this way is easy to train as it wont to please. But this achieved by setting rules for your dog and being consistent, being stern but not aggressive, using simple commands or sounds (my daughter clams I sound like I am growling when I tell the dogs off).

Dogs will try to assert themselves and if they find a weakness they will try to dominate, if you nip it in the bud you will have a better dog in the long run.
If your pup starts to do something that you do not like remove the pup until it calms down (puppy play pens are good for this or a room with a safety gate not their crate as that is their space and not for punishment). If your on your own us the muzzle grip method, if you watch a puppy and an older dog play if the pup nips the older dog to hard she holds the pup hard till she yelps, this is pack discipline at work you are only mimicking it.

I also recommend going to training classes and other dog activity's so you can socialize you dog, you will see dogs interact in a controlled environment and meet like minded owners, bad owners do not go to these sort of activity's.

The first month is one of the hardest, you have to stimulate your pup (cockapoo's are very intelligent dogs) with play and training so they do not get bored. You will see a change in them when you can get them out for a walk. Find the activity that you and your dog can enjoy and the bond between you will make the hard work and it is hard is well worth it.


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## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I can see that people are very passionate about the way they bring their dogs up and so long as they are brought up happy, obedient and healthly we can't go far wrong! We've been much firmer with the NO's and have been tapping her hard on the end of her nose which seems to be working. She just thinks it's a game but needs to know that growling and biting are NOT FUN!


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Well hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire but at puppy playschool that Dexter goes to every week which is run at my vets, I was told never show aggression/anger to your dog as it teaches him to be aggressive back- they said always give time-out or ignore him when he shows bad behaviour. I must admit I see the logic in both but I lean towards the ignoring method.


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## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

I got bitten on the bum when i turned round to ignore her yesterday  hahaha x


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Ha ha!!!!! They are too clever for their own good aren't they!


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## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

Yes!! Little tykes! She bit me then sat down and tilted her head as if to say sorrrrrweeeee mummy!  x


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## jools (Nov 11, 2010)

Can you put a gate up anywhere .......... not only is it good for time outs but you can go the loo in peace


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Vic3112 said:


> Thanks for all the advice everyone. I can see that people are very passionate about the way they bring their dogs up and so long as they are brought up happy, obedient and healthly we can't go far wrong! We've been much firmer with the NO's and have been tapping her hard on the end of her nose which seems to be working. She just thinks it's a game but needs to know that growling and biting are NOT FUN!


please dont tap her on her nose it can actually damage it and make her hand shy, all puppies bite and growl its all normal puppy behavior, have you tried yelping when she bites? often puppies who have learned good bite inhibition from their siblings will stop when you yelp, if she wont then ignore her fold your arms, turn your back on her once shes calmed praise her and give her a treat, its also good to give her time out area when shes over excited somewhere she can wind down give her something nice to play with like maybe a kong stuffed with something tasty, puppies arnt trying to dominate they arnt biting or growling because they are being aggressive its all normal behaviour. .Training should be a pleasant for dogs theres no need to tap them or shake their noses, they learn amazingly with positive and kind methods

this is a free download it gives a month long training program and fee download

http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/syp-month/


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## Vic3112 (Mar 25, 2011)

Funnily enough before i read this post we'd decided to stop tapping her on the nose as she just came back more agressive and growled even louder. Yes we have a baby gate on the living room door which was for the cats really so they could escape upstairs and she couldn't get to their food in the kitchen. We had a play pen that we used for 'time out' but she learnt to climb out of that on Saturday


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## weez74 (Feb 9, 2011)

I don't know if I am in the 'pack' camp or not. I think dogs have been domesticated long enough for us to treat them as their own species, not as some sort of tamed wolf. But I think it is clear that a big problem people have with dogs is allowing them to become the boss. I completely agree with Fallon and Stephen's approach, I just don't know if I agree with the reason being 'because in the wild this would happen'. Personally, I think it is 'because this is what works with dogs and we, who have worked with dogs a very long time, are the proof'. The 'we' most definitely not being me!

And it works with children too. How many of us know children who are insufferable because they have not been given boundaries? And I'm pretty sure I remember a study done on rats that found that those who had no control over their environments and were not given boundaries or predictable responses, suffered from very high levels of stress horomones. I think it is a pretty universally a good thing, to provide a young animal with boundaries, and rules and someone they can rely on to act in a guiding way. 

(and of course my children and my dog are SOOOOOO well behaved because I am such a good example to follow - that's sarcasm, in case it didn't come across )


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## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Vic3112 said:


> Funnily enough before i read this post we'd decided to stop tapping her on the nose as she just came back more agressive and growled even louder. Yes we have a baby gate on the living room door which was for the cats really so they could escape upstairs and she couldn't get to their food in the kitchen. We had a play pen that we used for 'time out' but she learnt to climb out of that on Saturday



thats because it winds her up more, 

lol well have you got a crate?... if you have pop her in there but make it a pleasant experience by maybe filling it with toys and the stuffed kong, when shes calmed let her out and praise her. she'll soon grow out of the biting stage honest


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## weez74 (Feb 9, 2011)

Yes, I second that - we used the crate for time outs with Rosie, without shouting or anything. Just quietly removing her from the family and putting her in the crate for a bit. 

I forgot to say that Rosie seemed to grow out of her phase quite quickly, but I think it was around the time that she was big enough, and the weather was good enough, for her to go outside with the kids. It might just be that all the running around with them tired her out too much, or that it replaced this particular form of play with another form.


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