# Resource Guarding



## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

I'm new to this forum but have read many of the threads over the months we have had Milo, all of which have helped us loads, so thanks!

In particular I have taken interest in the resource guarding threads, as sadly that is a problem we have been going through with our puppy. 

Apologies for the length of this post but I figured it might help to understand it all - something might click with someone here that might help us. We are feeling pretty desperate at the moment and life is almost on pause.

We got Milo at 9 weeks old. We met the Mum, Dad (and Grandad!) All was well with Milo in the early days, aside from the usual expected puppy antics! 

Milo will be 1 next week.

We took great care to socialise him (I believe), taking him on the school run (I have 3 children), to the shops, puppy classes etc. Even before he could go out we would carry him places. With 3 children (13, 11 and 9 years old) we have a fairly busy house with friends in and out all the time (although sadly this has decreased due to Milo's behaviour).

He has always been great at sleeping, being left, playing with other dogs etc. I work from home so he isn't really left for long periods of time.

I should point out that we are working with a behaviourist and have been for some time, I just wanted to come here for further support and advice from experienced Cockapoo owners.

At about 4 months old we noticed a change in Milo. He started becoming reactive towards the boys - but only in the evenings. He would start lungeing and barking at them if they walked into the lounge, with the occasional nudge on them with his nose. Not quite aggressive, but definitely a back off signal. We worked through this by giving Milo treats every time they came in the room and the boys ignoring him (in case their presence was overwhelming him) and it worked a bit, but we have had a few set backs. He doesn't do it so much now but can randomly do a mild form of it - so he might kind of grumble as they come in but not get up to do anything.

90% of the time he loves being all over the boys, desperate for strokes, cuddles and all the usual loving. But we've had to really curb their interaction with him as he can be unpredictable. He'll come over for a stroke, tail wagging, roll on his back for a belly rub, then a minute or 2 in growl/and or air snap for them to get off. He's done it once or twice with my husband but never with me. Thankfully he has never ever bitten anyone and we're working our hardest to make sure it doesn't get to that stage. I should add that this behaviour isn't daily. We can go a week or 2 and everything is perfect, then he'll suddenly react. I'm keeping a diary of everything to see if we can work out his triggers.

Also at 4 months old we were in town with Milo sat on my eldest's lap on a bench. He had a treat by him too. A man came over to chat with us (I was stood up next to the man) and all was going well. Then randomly out of nowhere this man (who was wearing a cap and glasses) leaned in and actually kissed Milo on the mouth (!!!) And Milo reacted pretty badly - clearly frightened - and he growled and snapped at the man, more an air snap, and the man backed off. Milo is now anxious around random men we meet out and about and I am working on this by crossing the road, walking in an arc around them to show to Milo that he can trust me not to let strangers invade his space. We do encounter people out on our walks and he seems fine if the person has a dog and so he'll go in for a stroke. However, I am considering getting him a nervous lead though so that people don't just lunge in for a stroke when I'm not able to tell them not to.

Milo's other issue, and probably the hardest to manage, is his resource guarding. He doesn't guard his food bowl or any of his toys. The only food he has ever guarded are his pigs ears. I started to only give him one whilst it was just me in the house, but then a few weeks ago he guarded that from me so he doesn't get them at all. I didn't try to take it from him (I never would) but I had given it to him at 10am and by 2pm it was still untouched, but next to him. When I walked past him (within 1 metre of it) he started snarling and growling at me. I backed off and went about some chores. Thankfully he then ate it all and was then back to normal. 

So, although hard, we can manage his guarding around obvious things. But it's things that he finds or steals that are a problem. We've learnt to pick our battles and not even try to get stuff back that doesn't matter. However, 2 incidents that have been really hard to deal with lately have been when he had found a piece of string and had it in his mouth (we didn't even know he had it) and my husband picked up a blanket next to him, he growled and snapped at him. Milo obviously thought he was coming for the string. The other one was last night when Milo picked up a leaf that had fallen off a house plant. We ignored it and Milo took it to his crate and sat in there with it. Which was fine until he then started growling and snarling at my husband (it was the whole works, whale eyes and everything!) when he was within 1 or 2 metres of his crate. My husband left the room at which point Milo stopped growling. I stayed, but moved further away. I went to the kitchen to get some cheese and Milo eventually came out to get some. But then went straight back to guard the leaf just standing over it, no growling). This went on for about 5 rounds (me getting cheese out him coming for it and then darting back to guard). Eventually I managed to get him to stay out by playing with him and then I closed him in the kitchen whilst I went and got the leaf. I couldn't risk leaving it with him until the morning in case the kids were on the receiving end of it.

There is plenty more I could say, but I'm aware that this post is pretty long already! Sorry! 

In a nutshell, we are working so hard to resolve these problems with Milo but it has become such an emotional roller coaster, one that I never dreamed would happen. We longed for a family dog to do everything with us and waited until the right time, done our research and worked hard to give him the best start - but somewhere along the line things have gone wrong and life has become really hard with him in it. We love him like mad and certainly intend to keep on working hard to make him a secure part of our family - but it's tough.

Oh and one last thing! He has been for a vet check and all is ok. On our own research we are getting his thyroid tested as well as a food sensitivity test - they may well both come back clear and if they do, at least we can cross it off the list of possibilities.

Thanks for listening to my novel - if you have any words of wisdom, or just encouragement, I would really appreciate them. We just want to do the best by Milo whilst keeping the rest of the family safe.


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

Sorry to hear things aren't going so well with Milo. I don't have any advice but hope that working with the behaviorist he will get better. Has Milo been neutered?


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## cfriend (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi that is a certainly a tough one. Although I have to say I am very impressed with how you are handling this. There are just 2 things I could add. What is your most high value treat for him? I'm sure you've heard of the exchange game to work on resource guarding but I think sometimes people don't think out of the box enough when it comes to high value treats to creat positive associations. Also there is a group on Facebook (if you have access to it) called Beyond Caesar Milan that is full of positive reinforcement trainers that give great advice if you were looking for more ideas. Hats off to you and good luck. I wish all dogs as dedicated parents as you are.


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## cfriend (Dec 22, 2016)

Oh and I forgot: there has been a book recommendation given many times on resource guarding it's called MIne by jean Donaldson. She is a PhD behaviorist and trainer that has written many fantastic books.


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Thank you for your kind words. It has certainly been a tough ride with many tears along the way, but I'm kind of hopeful we'll get through it with the right guidance. 

I won't lie, rehoming did cross my mind a month or so ago, mainly because of the children, but then I decided we couldn't just give up on him without trying everything. Of course if after working hard with him it was thought he would be happier elsewhere (somewhere without children) we would do what is best for him. I just don't want him to get worse so that if we ever had to his chances of being taken in would be less. If that makes sense!

But for now that isn't on the agenda, we need to stay positive!

Our most high value treats are dried sprats & sliced frankfurters. I'll check out that FB group, thanks. We do exchanges for high value but it all depends what mood he is in as to whether he's interested. Our final high value exchange is his harness and lead with shouts of walkies - which of course we follow through with, even if it is ridiculously late at night! But he always drops/leaves what he is guarding for a walk.

Yes I have that book by Jean Donaldson, I read through it a while back and felt a little overwhelmed, but maybe I should give it another go.

There just seems to be no rhyme nor reason to the stuff he sees as worthy of him guarding (well to us there doesn't, to him of course there is!) Like he guards his own sick as determinedly as a pigs ear. Or like yesterday a birthday balloon popped and he grabbed part of it and instantly gave it up for some cheese. Yet a few hours later the leaf was his most prized trophy. 

In answer to your question Lindor - no he hasn't been neutered.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Life with a resource guarder is hard work and I applaud you for all you are doing with Milo and wish you every success.

Things that have helped me with Molly are reducing her stress levels - the more stressed she is the more she guards so we try to keep a happy balance. The more you can read him the more you can avoid incidents so things like the string incident can be avoided as you can see the warnings without needing to know what he has got. It can be difficult to read cockapoos with fluffy faces and not hugely mobile ears but the eyes give it away every time.

The other thing I found when Molly was guarding was she was hugely suspicious about attempts to separate her from her goods - what worked really well was to let her have a treat and go back to her stolen stuff, then another treat and again go back to her stolen stuff, you could generally see the tension fall away as she realised I was not trying to take the thing back. As the tension falls away she gets happier to leave the item and can then be drawn into a game or a bit of training which lets me retrieve the item. 

I got Molly at 17 months when her first owners could not cope with her. At that point she was hugely stressed and would guard almost anything fairly seriously. She is now at the stage where she sometimes steals things and guards them but the guarding is pretty much a token effort and she knows she will get something swapped for it - her last stolen sock I directly swapped for a piece of kibble


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

@2ndhandgal - thank you for your reply, I've read many of your posts and think it is incredible what you have achieved.

It has been such a steep learning curve for us. I've had dogs previously and a dog like Milo has been a real shock for us - but I have to learn not to compare as all dogs are so different. Outside of the guarding and random grumpy reactions Milo is a wonderful dog who does bring a lot of joy to our family, we just need to work that little bit harder to manage him and make him feel secure with us.

He used to be terrible for guarding socks, until we gave him 2 of his own to play with. Now if he picks up a random sock we don't want him to have he's quite ok with swapping it for his 'toy' sock. 

He does love training and at the moment he is doing scent work at the weekly class we go to. That is helping too as if he takes something I don't want him to have I grab a slice of frankfurter/cheese and do a 'find it' game. It doesn't always work but I'm hoping it will build up his confidence to trust us more - and yes I think letting him go back to his stolen stuff between treats is something we should do a lot more, thanks.

The eyes! You are so right. It has taken me a while to learn his body language but I am getting better and the kids are becoming more aware of it too. They say 'Mum, Milo's giving me the eye!' I think dog communication should be on the school curriculum  

Keeping my diary is also a great help as when we have bad days I can look back and see what progress we have made. It's easy to get caught up in the moment and feel like we're getting nowhere when actually we are.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

It sounds like Milo is a very lucky lad to have landed with you and I think with your positive attitude, work and above all understanding you will be able to improve things hugely 

The diary is a fantastic idea and if at any time you find things get worse it is worth stopping and looking back to see if something has happened to cause an upset. I did this once with Molly where I had a couple of weeks of really challenging behaviour from her and finally took stock and traced it back to me telling her off when I was in a bad mood from work and causing the whole cycle, once I realised I was the cause I apologised, relaxed and so did she 

On a very positive note I know when I am out my slippers are totally safe from burglars  










You may recognise the "look" from the photo but it is very toned down version and she allows me to take the slipper without problem when I come back


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

What a brilliant photo  Molly is a beauty. 

I have noticed how in tune Milo (and cockapoos in general) seems to be to my emotions. It certainly takes some work on my part not to show any anxiety when we're in a situation.

I did have to chuckle at today's stolen loot as it was our home telephone. He took it to his bed and I could hear the numbers being pressed and had visions of the police rocking up at our front door - do you think they'd believe me if I said our cockapoo called them?! I had to engage the walkies trade off to get that one off him quickly.


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## Rory (Nov 27, 2009)

What can I say, I totally feel your pain and know exactly how you feel. We have a 2 year old male cockapoo called Barney. His behaviour is exactly the same as Milo.
He will protect/guard the most random things, but particularly his bed. You just don?t go near him when he is in it!
We can?t allow him on the furniture because if he falls asleep and then you move he will try and bite you. 
We were referred by our vet to the university of Lincoln who have a specialist in dog behaviour - apparently the best there is in this country, but we were told it?s just a case of managing him. They think it?s fear aggression. So for example don?t take anything off him always trade. Call him out of his bed, make him come to you rather than go up to him. 
Everything you describe is so similar ie: rolling on his back and then growling. I could go on and on with examples. Unfortunately my husband has been bitten quite badly.
He is particularly aggressive with my son when he comes back from uni- it?s almost as if it?s someone new coming into the pack and he wants to fight to be top dog.


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Sorry to hear you are going through similar things with Barney. Has he always been like that or is it a recent development? Have you had Barney since a puppy?

Milo isn't allowed up on the sofa anymore because he would get grumpy if anyone else sat down on it when he didn't want them to. He does still try his luck getting up there from time to time, but will get down when I ask him to. I do give him random treats when he gets down too so it's not too confrontational.

Unfortunately our eldest son (13) has taken the brunt of Milo's grumpy behaviour, yet he is the one that does the most for him (after me that is!) He takes him out for walks, feeds him, takes him to training every week. But one theory is as my son is going through puberty right now, especially his voice changing so much, it is making Milo more sensitive to him. But who knows, it could be something else. But both Milo and my eldest are teenagers, that's for sure!

Sorry to hear your husband was bitten - was that during a resource guarding episode?

Milo has his crate, as well as a dog bed he can go and sleep in. He isn't bothered by people near his bed at all, but he can get a bit weird about his crate. Normally if he has taken something he's stolen inside. I think that's because we started giving him a sprat each night to go to his crate when he was much younger. Now at around 830/9pm each night he goes and sits by his crate or in it waiting for a sprat! My husband also made the innocent mistake one morning of leaning in there to clean up some sick when Milo was sat in there - this was when he was much younger and he wasn't showing any guarding issues. Milo didn't take too kindly to that so it could be another reason why he can guard both his crate and his sick! Interestingly when Milo went to the home boarders for 2 weeks over the summer he didn't guard a thing apart from his crate. She took it away completely so he slept with the other dogs, and he was as good as gold. Well as good as a puppy can be!

So the behaviourist didn't give you anything other than managing it and trading up? Ours has told us the trading up, as few confrontations as possible, as well as calling Milo to us for interaction rather than us going up to him. Equally, we're not to always show him affection when he comes bounding up to us. The hardest part to manage is making sure everyone is on the same page as there are 5 of us in the house. 

The belly rubs are currently banned in our house because of the unpredictability of his reaction. One thought, and one that my diary shows as well, is Milo's grumpy days with belly rubs always fell on days he had beef. So that has been cut from his diet to see if that makes a difference. We might be clutching at straws but anything is worth a try!

In my relentless hunt for information about how to help Milo I have read quite a bit about both how food can effect their behaviour, as well as the often overlooked thyroid issues - hence why we are getting Milo tested for at least the latter. It might be wishful thinking (meant in the nicest possible way) that it could be something medical - but we need to rule things in or out, rather than wondering. 

Our behaviourist also told us that if we keep up with our positive training, trading up, less confrontations, bonding etc Milo will start to feel less anxious and in turn not feel the need to guard as much. Now he's approaching 1 (next week!) we are going to think about agility with him. We thought our eldest could do a lot of it with him to help their relationship.

Is Barney like it all the time or just occasionally? And one last question - has Barney been neutered? We've had mixed advice on this, and for now we've decided to wait until he is fully matured before making a decision.


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## Michele (Nov 12, 2015)

I’m sorry to hear about the challenges you face with Milo. I, too, have a resource guarder, and, in addition to the wonderful advice from 2nd, our vet suggested we train Rufus with the phrase “This is happening” when we need to do something important that we know he won’t like—touching his paws, giving him his Frontline or ear drops, taking away a pork chop bone stolen from the open bin while we’re cleaning plates, etc. Surprisingly, telling him this prepares him for whatever he finds distasteful. He knows he gets praise and a bone following the phrase after he complies with whatever needs to be done, and, if we’ve had to put him in a hold and he grumbles after we release him, he takes his treat and we tell him to go to his bed where he’ll sulk for awhile until he’s ready to engage with us again.

We rescued Roo two years ago this week when he was 10 months old, and it’s been a bumpy ride—my husband has a nasty scar on his hand and we’ve had to train ourselves to be very aware of establishing routines and reading his nonverbal cues, but he’s come a loooong way, so don’t give up. Lastly, do you notice a pattern in terms of the time of day he’s most grumpy? We found that Roo is moody and needs down time after dinner from 7 to 8:00 or so. We also established a bedtime routine that involves him getting first dibs on cuddles in bed ahead of our other two poos before he takes himelf off to his own bed. Patience and perseverance is key, and you’re doing everything you need to do.


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## Michele (Nov 12, 2015)

Also, I forgot to mention I also taught him “high fives” to desensitize him to having his paws touched. He’s a funny little cuss though...when he’s in a bad mood he won’t give them, but, overall, he’s far less protective of his feet.


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Thank you for your encouraging words - it's helpful to know there are others in similar situations. You sound like you have made incredible progress with Rufus.

How did you train him with 'this is happening'? We're trying with 'show me show me' which I guess might be similar. He stole a chicken leg off the table this week (our fault for leaving it within reach) and I had to act fast on that one. He didn't growl or try to bite me but he was very edgy and barking at me afterwards. I know I undone some of our work with that episode but I couldn't risk him swallowing it. 

Thankfully Milo only seems to have this random reaction to his belly being rubbed every once in a while, but is ok with other physical interaction - he loves being groomed, by us with a comb, and every 8 weeks at the groomer. We just have to be aware of his body language and sometimes it's hard to get it exactly right when he is all over us with cuddles one minute, and had enough the next. It's like he's torn between wanting to be with us and cuddled, but not feeling entirely comfortable with it, if that makes sense.

I notice that he shakes a lot after physical interaction, even after his harness has been put on, which our trainer told us is him shaking off his adrenalin - which I guess is good as it's releasing the stress - but it tells us that there is something he doesn't like about being touched too much. Which is what I feel odd as we've had him since he was a puppy and he has always been positively handled by us. Our trainer is also a TTouch practitioner and she has suggested we practise that with him too.

In answer to your question, his reactivity to the boys entering the room, or the table area is only at night. We have a routine with him now where he goes to his crate at 830/9pm (he willingly does this) and he'll sleep until we get up around 7am. I'm hoping it won't always be like this as his reactivity to them has significantly reduced in this area, so much so that if I say 'enough' to him when he starts barking, he will. But him being away prevents him from getting the chance to practise it and also he is sleeping when he goes to bed at this time. 

Thinking about it he has always been reactive to certain things, since he was super young. Like trying to chase cars (we got over this through 'watch me' and treating him) but now we're going through it with bikes. But only if they approach us from behind.

Resource guarding is my biggest worry with him due to the unpredictability of what he guards. But I'm hoping we can at least get him to a point where we can manage it safely. 

He's definitely an intriguing character - it's a good job we love him so much!


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

I thought I would update this thread, hopefully what we are going through might help anyone else in a similar situation.

We had a great 10 day stretch of no incidents at all with Milo. And then last weekend it all went a bit wrong again. 10 days to 2 weeks seems to be a normal length of everything being fine. Saturday night he was a little reactive towards my eldest son moving around the lounge, Milo was in his bed and was grumbling as my son moved across the room.

Then Sunday evening he lunged, growled and snarled at my husband when he leaned over to say something to me. Luckily I had him on a lead as he'd been acting a little odd earlier in the evening.

Monday evening he done the same again to my eldest son when he came up behind me. Then Monday night he was sick, was up every 2 hours with a bad belly. This continued through until Wednesday and Thursday he was fine. But then at 5am Friday morning (today) he barked as if he wanted to go out. My husband went and let him out but he wouldn't leave his crate. My husband didn't get any closer than 2 metres from him but he was really snarling and growling as if guarding his crate, so my husband just left him and went back to bed. He quietened down and when I went down at 630 he was ok but kept running back to his crate. Once I managed to get him out in the garden and check the crate I realised he'd been sick in it, which is obviously why he was guarding.

Tonight he started showing signs of him being funny when my youngest son walked over to me for a cuddle. He ran over the room and jumped up at my son kind of mouthing him.

So, essentially he is guarding me I think? As well as his sick too. It really worries me that he guards me from the children as now I'm on edge when they come close to me when he is around, which obviously makes the situation worse. 

I'm going to speak to the behaviourist, but I'm wondering if we could make him see the kids near me is a good thing if he gets treats every time they are? Perhaps set it up so he is behind a baby gate with my husband, and me and the kids on the other side. Every time they make physical contact with me and he doesn't react, he gets a click and a treat? This behaviour is only in the evening. 

I don't think his sickness this week helped, but I do feel like sometimes we make 1 step forward and 2 steps back. It's so emotional, we just want to do the right thing.


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## cfriend (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi great that you're seeing a behaviorist and your intuition about clicking and treating sounds good to me. Sorry if you've mentioned this before but have you gone to the vet to check him out completely. I know that often times behavioral problems like this can result from some health issues... like pain or a hyperactive thyroid comes to mind. If you haven't already please go to the vet.


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Yes we have been to the vets twice about it, two different vets. Neither can find anything wrong. 

The first suggested Adaptil to help calm him (it didn't). The second suggested castration. We're not anti castration and it is a consideration- but we want to rule out medical stuff first as Milo is a nervous dog castration could make him worse (so I'm told).

We have however after much 'debate' managed to get the vet to agree to take his bloods to test his thyroid, this will hopefully happen next week. The vet doesn't think it can be that but we are of the opinion that we need to rule anything out. I've been in touch with Dr Jean Dodds who is the expert in this field and she agrees he needs testing going on what I've told her. I've read her book on hypothyroidism in dogs and so much does fit Milo. It also says castration can make it worse, so another reason to delay that. 

Then our second plan is a Nutriscan. This article also fits Milo https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit...9/20/stevie-background-behavior-problems.aspx except Milo has been fed a raw diet since we got him at 9/10 weeks. He doesn't have what I would call 'chronic diarrhea' (apart from this week!) but for a raw fed dog his poos are nowhere near as solid as other dogs I know fed this way. 

I do find it odd that his reactive behaviour towards the boys/guarding me only tends to surface later on in the day. Could it be stress build up? Noise sensitivity (there are 5 of us in the house, me being the only female!) or tiredness later in the day where he has less self control?

I've contacted the breeder to see if there have been any other reported problems with the litter but she hasn't responded. I'm hoping this is a simple case of not getting my email so I will contact her again.


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## cfriend (Dec 22, 2016)

Looks like you've got all bases covered. I find it odd that a vet would be opposed to testing his thyroid. I'm nowhere near a vet but I have heard of several cases where this was the case and they calmed down considerably after getting meds. Him being worse in the evenings sounds logical to me as dogs are crepuscular (most active in the mornings and evenings) maybe something that could help keep him calm is actively exercising him during those times?


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sorry that you are having an unsettled time with him - any illness and him feeling off colour will definitely have a poor effect on his behaviour. If any degree of sickness is also something he suffers from now and then it is also worth looking at pancreatitis which I discovered Molly had and yes if she feels rough from that she is more likely to be grumpy and guardy. I also had an episode where she was not entirely right in terms of energy levels and her guarding was far worse than usual (aimed at Chance not me) - it took a while but we eventually discovered she had SIBO which was another gut problem - once that was resolved she was back to herself (and the vet apologised for telling me in the first place there was nothing wrong with her) 

Sounds like a good idea to pair the children with good stuff happening and I would be taking advice from the behaviourist about neutering not the vet. 

Hope you are able to get things to settle down more especially with the boys - another though is if in the evenings I guess that is after he is eaten so could also be discomfort from food? Guessing if he is raw fed you are using different protein sources on different days it might be worth keeping a diary of food and see if you can identify a pattern of the days he is more grumpy?


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## Breezy (Jun 28, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear Milo has been a bit of a challenge! If I read everything right, Milo is 1 and not neutered? To me it seems like his behaviour issues started to appear right at the start of puppy puberty. I do have to wonder if getting him fixed might help curve his impulsive behaviors, especially towards men. It sounds to me like he's being protective of you and maybe feeling a bit of "competition" from the other men in the house. I know that unfixed females tend to act out towards other fertile females (even their lady humans) in the house because of competition, and I wouldn't be surprised if males do it to. If you don't intend on breeding him, I would really consider getting him fixed! Might help! 
Good luck!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Poor Milo, being sick and stressed is no fun. Do your children go to school? Was it just a coincidence that he regressed at the weekend? Some dogs really thrive on a quiet routine. Maybe try to follow the same pattern on weekends that you do on weekdays and see if it helps?


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## GreenEnvy (May 1, 2017)

Milo211116 said:


> I'm new to this forum but have read many of the threads over the months we have had Milo, all of which have helped us loads, so thanks!
> 
> In particular I have taken interest in the resource guarding threads, as sadly that is a problem we have been going through with our puppy.
> 
> ...


Interestingly, our 9 month old, Kira, also only seems to resource guard pig ears. Anything else you can walk up to her, take it away, give it back, she doesn't care.
With pig ears she will often growl at the kids if they get close, once in a while me or my wife.

Not sure what it is about pig ears. We don't give them to her anymore when the kids are around. 

She absolutely loves every person she's ever met. Kids especially. She goes up on 2 legs and 'dances' for random kids to come over whenever we go for walks. At our kids soccer games this summer she was in heaven with all the kids around.


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Sadly Milo can't even have pigs ears with just me in the house. I tried it and he guarded it quite intensely. We can't really give him anything like that. He has an anchor root which he chews on and is fine with so that's his only chewing outlet really.

@2ndhandgal - thanks for the suggestions on the other potential medical problems. We have been keeping a food diary for a while and we thought beef was a trigger and so that was removed. But lately there seems no correlation between his behaviour and what he eats. But I'm keeping up with the diary anyway to see if we can spot anything.

@fairlie - yes my children do go to school, but there seems to be no differences between weekends and weekdays. Yesterday in the daytime when they were all at school he growled and snapped at me when I briefly stroked him on his side (he was wagging his tail at the time). This is the first time he has ever done that to me. 

@cfriend - the vet didn't think it could be that at such a young age. But I've read so many cases where it has been that at a young age. She has agreed to do it so we're hoping to get him in this week.

@breezy - we haven't ruled out castration but need to get the thyroid results back first as if it is that castration can make it worse.

His behaviour does seem to be escalating lately and to say life is difficult is an understatement. He really growled and snarled at my husband tonight when he took his harness off. It's the unpredictability of it all that is hardest to cope with. I'm dreading the Xmas holidays already


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sorry that behaviour is escalating at the moment  I know how stressful it can be but do not have children to worry about so things are much simpler. Are you still getting help from the behaviourist?

Harnesses are often something dogs are not really comfortable with so I like to sit and make a proper training exercise of it with lots of treats and rewards for them tolerating it so it becomes part of the normal routine and nothing to worry about. If you were close enough to me in the Midlands I would be happy to come and do a visit to see if I can help?


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately we don't live close by, we're in the south west. Yes we are still getting help from our behaviourist who has been amazing in all of this. I don't deny yesterday I was ready to give up after such a testing time, but she said although she would 100% support our decision she thinks we're doing so well, and we shouldn't give up now.

So today is another day (well it's almost over!) and we started afresh. Yes, the kids change everything with getting through this. Not only is management really hard to make sure nobody gets hurt, but we have to make sure everyone's on the same page. It's taken a lot of work to teach them not to show any emotion when Milo has something of theirs, even if it is their homework! As soon as he knows we want it, it's game over. 

I think you are right about the harness, we need to do more regular training around it. He tolerates having it put on because he knows there is a walk at the other end. He has a Perfect Fit harness but I've been looking at the TTouch ones which might be better for him.

I've been watching a lot of his body language and actions around the boys and so many times he'll rush up and get in between us whenever one of them approaches me, or he'll jump up on his hind legs to almost push them away.

It doesn't help that he is going through a major teenage defiant stage and we need to be careful that we don't mix up the guarding with that.


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## R00 (Dec 20, 2017)

Morning 

How is Milo getting on? I came across your post last night after being on this forum a few times before & it sounds like we have a very similar story with our 8 month pup, Roo. 

We got a behaviourist in last week after things came to a bit of a head but have been finding the whole thing incredibly stressful, overwhelming & upsetting. We're meant to be staying with family for Christmas and are dreading it! So please know you're not alone in any of this (I'm sure you know already by the rest of the great replies on here) but we can definitely relate if you need any further moral support. 

Where about's in the South West are you?


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Hello - sorry I didn't get round to responding sooner - sorry to hear you've been going through similar problems with Roo, I know how stressful it is. How was Roo over Xmas? Have you seen any improvements since you saw the behaviourist?

Our last incident with Milo was 2 weeks ago where he growled and snapped at my husband. 2 weeks is our record length of time without any issues, when I say issues I mean really unacceptable behaviour like snapping, lungeing at the boys etc for know obvious reason.

Fortunately we had a Xmas without incident with Milo, in fact we have had 2 weeks of a super loving family pet, but today we've begun to notice his usual change in behaviour where we know he has switched into the more unpredictable Milo. His whole personality changes and he becomes more withdrawn, on edge and can go off his food. Then he'll react for what seems like nothing. Or guard something really random.

It has made life so hard - we haven't really been able to have people over which makes family life tough, not to mention the constant worry of the kids getting in harms way.

But, the good news is we 'might' have a reason. After a lot of back and forth we finally got the blood results from both the UK lab and the US lab where we sent them for further analysis, and the US vet has said she would consider Milo to have hypothyroidism. Although he is only slightly out of range for what is considered normal, as he is so young he shouldn't be anywhere near this low. So a 6-8 week course of medication has been suggested and then another blood test to see where we're at. So, it's back to vet this week to get him on the meds and hopefully we'll see some improvement. I really really pray we do!!

For anyone that is interested in more info that we've discovered re hypothyroidism please feel to ask me - I am of course far from an expert but have read so much info about it I can certainly point you in the right direction. 

In the meantime, this is the most relevant paragraph regarding Milo and what he has and every bit applies to him;

"Some dogs with suppressed thyroid functioning still test within the laboratory’s “normal” references ranges. These dogs are said to suffer from sub-clinical hypothyroidism. Sub-clinical hypothyroidism is a controversial topic within the veterinary community, since dogs with borderline-low hypothyroidism often display none of the typical clinical symptoms of full-blown hypothyroidism (weight gain, skin and coat problems, and lethargy, for example). However, there is substantial empirical evidence that animals with borderline-low hypothyroidism experience increased issues of aberrant behavioral, especially aggression, and also commonly suffer from inflammatory bowel disease. "


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## R00 (Dec 20, 2017)

Morning

Christmas was pretty awful to be honest - we were in the aftermath of having him neutered (which was towards the end of November) which I now VERY much regret having had done. With an ear infection in both ears he was stressed & agitated & visiting family for a week was just a nightmare. We came back before new year & he was much better while we were home but it's definitely been a case of us managing the situation. 

We're really on top of his body language & know when he's got the potential to be guarding something so don't go near him which has meant we have managed to mostly avoid incidents. Originally it was just v high value things but now it could be anything (the other day he flinched at me ready to snap when I touched an envelope he was chewing). 

We've realised that in some cases he has really specific triggers (bags is one of them!) - we can manage stuff to a certain extent but I don't know how sustainable it is. Im on edge when people come round & I'm self employed so he's often out & about with me which just feels impossible to imagine doing at the moment. 

Fingers crossed the medication helps - did you go through your regular vet for that? Roo had a blood test & it came back clear, but I've heard that sometimes they only do one particular test for thyroid & that a full panel might be more appropriate. Though I wonder if I'm just clutching at straws with something like that for Roo. 

We've had a few exercises to work with him on but not really seen any improvement - they focus on getting him away from whatever he's guarding which has never actually been a problem for him, you can lure him away fairly easily, it's more the 'approach' that's impossible. 

I seem to hugely peak & trough between 'I'm sure we can work to train this out of him' and then just worrying it's too much for us (and him!) to manage, though I can't imagine him not being around.

Are you on a 'wait and see' now with the medication to see if there's improvement? I really hope it helps. Have you been given any training with your behaviourist too?


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Sorry to hear Xmas was so hard. Roo sounds the same with regards to guarding - it's not the kind of items you would imagine they would place value on, but I guess to them they are.

Recognising triggers are definitely key, but sometimes they can throw you with the sudden change of mood. Our general rule is if he takes anything we pretend not to have noticed (not always easy, especially with kids!) and then either leave him with it, or if we really need it back, we'll do a trade. But I'll never just take something from him. If he is guarding something like his sick (!) I have to go to the ultimate trade which is getting his lead out and taking him for a walk. But our problem lays with the things we don't know he has in his mouth (like leaves, string etc). Our rule has to be that we only ever call Milo to us for interaction, we never just approach him, that way if he doesn't come we usually know he has something. 

As Milo is getting older (he is now 13 months) he is beginning to take less stuff and so the guarding is less, but when he is in one of his phases he will actively try and take stuff that we have put out of reach.

The other day I got some treats out to do some training and he rushed to his bed, lifted up his cushion and pulled out a sweet wrapper he'd stashed there and promptly brought it over to me - which kind of made me chuckle, but also I know had we have gone near his cushion without knowing he might have reacted to us moving it, it's sure adds to the stress levels. 

With regards to the testing - we did go through our regular vet but it wasn't straightforward as she didn't agree that it could be anything other than behavioural. It didn't help that we wanted to send the blood results off to the US to get them analysed by Dr Jean Dodds (considered the expert on thyroid issues in dogs) as she holds a large database on the thyroid levels of many breeds of dogs over various ages to compare them against.

Eventually we came to a compromise where the vet here took the blood, we got them tested in a UK lab and then they sent us the results to send to Dr Jean Dodds to analyse. We had to pay an extra £100 to send the report to the US but I really wanted to cover all bases. As far as the UK lab report is concerned, although Milo is out of range, it is only of 'mild concern.' But Dr Jean Dodds explains that because all dogs are different we shouldn't be using just one range for all dogs. Larger breeds, and older breeds should be in the lower range, whereas Milo should be in the high range, and he's not, he's lower than the lowest point.

The thing with thyroid issues is they are not usually tested for on such young dogs and it isn't until the obvious symptoms (weight gain, skin problems etc) occur in later life that they are tested - and then a lot of the thyroid has already been destroyed.

So this week we are seeing the vet again to ask if she will give us the medication to test Milo on for the next 6 to 8 weeks. I'm hoping she will be on board, or we will have to change vets.

I'm not expecting the meds to be a magic pill to cure all our problems with Milo, we still need to continue with the behavioural work, but if we can take away the mood swings that we believe the thyroid is causing we'll have a much clearer picture of why it is happening (I hope!)

If we still struggle after all that then I don't know the next step to be honest. I know we can't continue as we are, our life is almost on hold the way things are, but like you, the thought of not having Milo in our lives absolutely breaks my heart. 

It's been such an emotional rollercoaster, with feelings of we can do this, to we really can't live like this. Then feelings of guilt and failure that we've caused this, whilst knowing that something didn't quite feel right - Milo isn't our first dog so I knew he seemed different to the others.

If you have had a blood test done can you ask your vet for a copy? You can see what was tested and where he fell in each range and see whether it's worth investigating further?

Does Roo have any other behavioural concerns or is it just the guarding? (which I know is more than enough!) It's just that Milo can have random growling/snapping incidents with us when he comes to us for a stroke, or he can suddenly react to one of the boys when they walk by, move suddenly (even when not anywhere near him).

I know that 2ndhandgal here has worked wonders with her dog Molly and resource guarding so she'll be able to offer more experienced advice than me.

One last thing, does Roo have any problems with diet? Milo's other factor was he can suffer with gut problems which can make things worse. His bloods came back with mildly elevated liver enzymes which could signal leaky gut (among other things). I'm keeping a diary to record everything he eats, drinks, behaviour and yes, poo/sick to see if we can see a pattern there too (yep, it makes delightful reading - a poo diary in more way that one!!)

If it helps you at all, I remember when Milo was 8 months and if I compare him to how he is now we are in a better place with him - whether that is due to us better managing the situations, or Milo maturing, or I guess a mix of the both. We've just got to get to an even better place to make family life less stressful!


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Everything crossed that the vets are helpful and the medication does help with Milo - the changes in mood you describe do sound very much like something medical is going on. I have found when I see a decline in Mollys behaviour it is usually because she has something hurting or is otherwise not well. I did once go to the vets based on the fact Molly was far more grumpy with Chance than normal - I had little in the way of other signs but knew she was not right - took us a while to work it out and eventually diagnosed a gut problem - SIBO - once that was treated she was back to her usual self.

Sorry to hear things have been so difficult with Roo over Christmas - can I just ask what you mean by this bit "We've had a few exercises to work with him on but not really seen any improvement - they focus on getting him away from whatever he's guarding which has never actually been a problem for him, you can lure him away fairly easily, it's more the 'approach' that's impossible."

When Molly was at her worst I found if she had stolen something and came away for a treat it was best to let her go back to the item and call her away again for a second treat, and then again return to it, calling her away for a third treat and I would usually see the tension leave her body and she was not worried and at this point I could get the stolen whatever with no problem. Getting it while she was still stressed lead to an overall increase in her stress levels the next time she had stolen something - and the more stressed she was the more likely she was to steal in the first place - hope that makes sense?


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Sadly things haven't been great since I last updated. After our lovely Xmas period with Milo he began to regress to his unpredictable ways. 

We were really optimistic after we got the report from Jean Dodds that she considered him to be hypothyroid and he should be on medication. However, our vet felt otherwise and said Milo wasn't hypothyroid and any medication could make him worse. We agreed to wait 2 months for another blood test to compare results. 

However, as things have got so bad we have decided to get a 2nd opinion and we are visiting another vet on Monday. I pray with all my heart that he can help us.

Since Xmas, things have been awful. We're managing the guarding of stolen items quite well (so long as he hasn't hidden something we don't know about), but he has stepped up his guarding of me, sometimes my husband, as well as his sleeping areas, and almost all of the downstairs (he isn't allowed upstairs). Sometimes one of the boys will be on the sofa (Milo isn't allowed on there due to his guarding) and they might slightly shift their weight, and Milo will fly at them from the other side of the room, growling and snarling until I can get him out and in the kitchen. I should add this is not all the time - only at random times (more so in the evening but it can happen in the afternoon too). At other times he adores them and will happily lick them to death. But I can no longer risk him in too close proximity alone with them and so he is spending more and more time alone in the kitchen which is horrible for us all. His crate is another hot spot that takes careful negotiation.

We've tried so hard to help him and do things right, but we just can't carry on like this anymore. Not only do I feel he is a risk to the children - he hasn't bitten them, but I'm scared he will, but he is also clearly stressed in our environment. And I know that's not good for him either.

We've got so much love to give him but I fear he needs an adult only house. I know until we speak to the vet on Monday we can't make any decisions, I just feel so anxious about him and his future.

Sorry to be so negative, but the whole situation is truly heart breaking for us all


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

So sorry that things are so hard at the moment and hoping very much that the new vets can help.

He sounds a lucky lad to have such great owners prepared to try so hard and I am very sorry that things have got so much worse. As you say if things really can not be resolved he may do better in an adult only home although I hope it does not come to that.


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## Milo211116 (Nov 16, 2017)

Thanks for your kind words @2ndhandgal. We went to the vets last Monday and she was amazing. She asked all the right questions to get a proper understanding of what was going on. 

She prescribed us the medication that had been recommended by Dr Jean Dodds, and advised us that it could take up to a month for them to start showing any real effect. She also gave us some mild anti anxiety tablets to help us calm him whilst we wait for the medication to take effect. She also agreed that we were right not to have had him castrated yet. She said if anything chemical castration should be tested with him first - but not until we have a better understanding of what the thyroid medication might do for him.

We are a week in to the medication and things are exactly the same with him - which I guess we should take as a positive. At least they are not worse and we know we might not see a change for another 3 weeks yet. So we are taking things one day at a time and managing his reactivity with the children the best we can until the meds hopefully start to work.

Whatever happens I'm so glad we sought a second opinion, even if it means we now have to travel 90 minutes each way to see the vet!


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Phew - have been worrying about you all. So pleased the new vet was much more positive and very much hoping the medication will make the difference with him. Let us know how things go.


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