# F1 or F4 Cockapoo?



## misjones86

Hi Everyone,

I have wanted to get a cockapoo for a while now and finlly my partner has agreed. I've been looking around at breeders but have got a bit confused. Which is better F1 or F2? I know that F1 is from breeding a pure cocker spaniel with a pure poodle and that F4 is from breeding F3's, but i just don't know which one to go with? 

Please Hep!


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## tessybear

If you prefer a non moulting coat then go for a F1.


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## Soo

I would be interested to see a F4 to see if the coat and look had been stabilised. You rarely see further down the generations that F2 and at that level there are still grand dad pups that my go very much to the poodle or cocker side. 

Most folk stick to the first generation F1 as that one usually gives the nice non shedding coat and good nature.

The other that you frequently see is the F1B which is a first generation cockapoo put back to usually a poodle to increase the chance of that non shedding coat.

The fun in cockapoos is the not knowing exactly what you are going to get but they are all gorgeous dogs!


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## Mez-UK

I would just like to add, while most cockapoos F1 are non or low shedding it is not always the case. As said above the fun is not knowing what they will be like! I have Harley he is F1 but favours the Spaniel, his coat does moult- not bad but a little. Yogi again an F1 has your "typical Poo look" with a soft wavy coat and he hardly moults. My friend has a Cockapoo Ronnie and he has a thick curly coat which doesn't moult at all!!
So it really is the luck of the draw.


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## Jukee Doodles

In reply to the original post - I would also suggest that people go out and meet a cross-section of "F"s if possible - go on the walks and meets and see which style tallies best with your lifestyle - there should be little in it but I'd have thought choosing between American / Show or Working would be a more relevant decision than which F type.

I'd state that the "F2" is known as the least stable of the mix - as Granddad Effect can throw up some Poodly or Cocker looking dogs - not always seen at the puppy stage but develop as time goes on and that's where we often hear "I wish I knew then what I know now".

I'd say that 99% of people looking into Cockapoo only really envisage an F1 - breeders breeding F1b / F2 and onwards should always be totally open about the potential outcomes of their pairings.

Also - I'd also think that the current gene-pool is too restricted at present to support F4 pairings without serious risk of in-breeding (which is one thing we need to be avoiding). So unless you have a full history of all the pairings then I'd be concerned. Added to the fact that we are now beginning to hear of "Cockapoos" that are not Cockapoos and Pedigree Poodles (that do not meet the Breed Standard) being sold-off as F1b Cockapoos - so it would certainly be a case of Buyer Beware.
We are also beginning to think that someone unscrupulous is buying-in (without any knowledge of ancestry) "Cockapoo" puppies from Ireland and selling them on (a Puppy Broker) if they are selling them as their own home-bred Poos then there is something very wrong going on - so be wary of puppies being offered at 8 weeks or older by anyone (whether One-off / Hobby or big Licensed Breeders) - and this is one reason why The Cockapoo Club of GB have put mandatory systems (Code of ethics / Code of Practice and Registration Certificates) in place for it's registered breeders so we can go some way to ensuring open, ethical and responsible breeding of Cockapoos - of any F number on-going. So anyone looking for a Cockapoo should check out the CCGB as any breeder also wanting to protect Cockapoo's future would be welcomed to join.

I'd also agree with Mary (Mez-UK) as not all F1's are non-shedding. All dogs "moult" but some don't shed (that's why they matt-up and need grooming on a regular basis). 
F1's with the curly / wavy coat tend to be the non-shedding - F1's with the "straight" coat do shed but not enough to notice a great deal nor not normally enough to trigger any allergy. Some F2's who favour the Cocker side can grow to be virtually identical to a Cocker - looks and shedding.
I don't think it is that much of a "Luck of the Draw" (unless you have just any puppy delivered without having seen it / or if you select at 2 days old / or even at 2 weeks old) - as if you get to select your pup at around the 6 weeks old mark you should be able to tell which coat type the pups are likely to follow. Also - from 6 weeks old (if socialised properly) you normally then look beyond colour, *** and coat-type and actually get to see the pup's temperament and that, in my book, should be a greater consideration than the others and it's why we always feel that a puppy chooses You - not the other way around.

Happy hunting - sometimes the searching and anticipation can be a fun time too.

Stephen x


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## Happyad

Cockapoos vary quite a bit!
I'm a dog groomer by trade and due to my love of the cockapoo, we have over 30 of them. 
Plus all the other poo mixes!!
So I am lucky and get to see a great cross section and variety, f1s,f2s, and all types of mix. 
The size, the coat, the curls all vary even dogs from the same breeders, this is due to the fact of different parents for every doggy. 
The most poodley one is my f1 and the most spaniely one is another f1. 
It's not totally luck of the draw but near enough, only those breeders that have bred pairs of dogs for several litters and have kept photo track of the outcomes can truly give advice of what the pup may look like. 
But as a math geek, they'd need all pics from pups from all the litters from the pairs to say categorically the chances for wavy is ?%. 
Personality is the biggest success to a great family dog and curls and waves are a super cute bonus😊


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## mandym

Id like to add that there is an exception.pyper is an f4 and is from calafornia so i dont have the ancestry for her because its so far back,her breeders owned both parents who were f3s but i have details of where they came from and further back.she has a very soft curly coat and is adorable.I might also add that its very easy for a breeder to give papers with ancestry but how do you know this is the correct papers to match the correct dog.A friend of mine bought a chihuahua that although not kc reg came with parents 5 gen papers,now i dont know if it was an accident and the breeders genuinly didnt know but this dog is most definately a cross but the papers say otherwise xxx


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## Glendreamcockapoos

"so be wary of puppies being offered at 8 weeks or older by anyone (whether One-off / Hobby or big Licensed Breeders)"

I know of many breeders who don't advertise puppies until they are at least 8 weeks of age. I also breed cavalier king charles spaniels and I've just recently advertised a litter of 11 week old puppies. There were 4 puppies in the litter, all girls. I've retained one myself, but couldn't make up my mind which to keep, so I decided to run them all on and make my selection. The remaining puppies went to their new homes at 12 weeks of age, fully vaccinated, microchipped, wormed, insured, vet checked and litter eye screened for MRD. These puppies have settles into their new homes with ease. My point being there aren't always suspicious circumstances surrounding puppies advertised over the age of 8 weeks.

Personally, I don't think potential buyers should be allowed to touch puppies until they have had their first vaccination. I allow people to view my puppies from four weeks, they can see them, in my home environment, with mum, but I do not allow people to touch them under any circumstances.

Obviously you can get throwbacks in F2 litters but then the same could be said about any breeding combination. Experienced breeders will be able to advise suitably as to the coat type of a puppy and how it's expected to develop. 

In my opinion too many people have now jumped onto the cockapoo breeding band wagon and they are churning our puppies left, right and centre. Perspective buyers should thoroughly vet breeders before they purchase from them. Ask them why they are breeding, what experience do they have with dogs in general and make sure they are 100% comfortable with their knowledge. Some breeders talk the talk, but really, they've no actual dog experience and their breeding ethics are basically based around marketing their puppies in order to make big bucks!

Good luck in your search for a puppy )

Kind Regards,

Paul


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## Janev1000

Hi Paul

I'm unfortunately one of those owners who have ended up with a 'cockapoo' in very suspicious circumstances, so for sure it is definitely happening. Whilst I would have no problem in seeing cockapoos advertised at 8 weeks onwards, I would either expect the larger breeders to either indicate planned litters on their websites, together with information or photos on their adult dogs, which I can see that you do, which makes the whole thing totally transparent when litters are finally advertised. Good hobby breeders also indicate planned litters on 'breeder's online' or are able to let people know their breeding plans when call or emailed. I think people should just be aware of some websites that only show pics of pups ready to go home, without any previous knowledge of these pups being born, or any pics of their parents. And yes, I totally agree that there are too many people out there just to make a fast buck!


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## Jukee Doodles

Hi Paul - Being wary of puppies being offered at 8 weeks old or older is still something to consider if that breeder also offers puppies younger !

If your website sets-out that you don't release puppies until 8 weeks or 10 weeks then that should be the case of all puppies advertised - if your website shows puppies available at 2 / 3 / 4 /5 / 6 / 7 and 8 weeks old - then the likelihood of the older ones having been viewed by lots of people is high - so I'd personally ask myself why did they walk away ?

My comment did actually stem from suggestions that, allegedly, a breeder was buying-in Cockapoos (with no checks to see if they were actually Cockapoos) - in singles and as litters and then advertising them as if they were their own - as most people would not release puppies until they are 8 weeks old - it was simply a message to ask people to be aware - as the broker would not have them themselves until 8 weeks old - so could not advertise them (at a much higher price) until after they themselves took ownership ! 

I again think that potential customers should always look to visit the breeder and ask to see whatever of the breeder's set-up they want - a truly open and above-board breeder should be willing and able to show everything - especially now with the public becoming more aware of ethical practise.

As well as being open about the number of litters planned / born / the names and photos of breeding bitches and their respective health checks - breeders do need to be more accountable for how they operate - if you house any dog with a "Guardian" home then the public, in my mind, should be made aware (there was recently a discussion on Guardian homes on here).

Also if you are a "Hobby" breeder who hides behind the title "Hobby" to brush-off any need to health test then I don't agree with that - as equally as the number of "Hobby" breeders who in reality are far from it - there are increasing reports , allegations of so-called Hobby breeders breeding in excess of the permitted 4 litters - I think that the buying public - and the ones who love their 'Poos and post on such sites as this - also have a duty to out this practice !!!
Anyone breeding more than 4 litters should have a Council License - and the law / rules and regulations surrounding breeding under license should itself lean towards and more ethical approach and an increased level of Welfare - however this too is always not the case !! So the buying public again have a duty to highlight facts like this too !

Stephen x
Cockapoo Breed Advisor for Dog's Today Magazine.


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## mandym

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi Paul - Being wary of puppies being offered at 8 weeks old or older is still something to consider if that breeder also offers puppies younger !
> 
> If your website sets-out that you don't release puppies until 8 weeks or 10 weeks then that should be the case of all puppies advertised - if your website shows puppies available at 2 / 3 / 4 /5 / 6 / 7 and 8 weeks old - then the likelihood of the older ones having been viewed by lots of people is high - so I'd personally ask myself why did they walk away ?
> 
> My comment did actually stem from suggestions that, allegedly, a breeder was buying-in Cockapoos (with no checks to see if they were actually Cockapoos) - in singles and as litters and then advertising them as if they were their own - as most people would not release puppies until they are 8 weeks old - it was simply a message to ask people to be aware - as the broker would not have them themselves until 8 weeks old - so could not advertise them (at a much higher price) until after they themselves took ownership !
> 
> I again think that potential customers should always look to visit the breeder and ask to see whatever of the breeder's set-up they want - a truly open and above-board breeder should be willing and able to show everything - especially now with the public becoming more aware of ethical practise.
> 
> As well as being open about the number of litters planned / born / the names and photos of breeding bitches and their respective health checks - breeders do need to be more accountable for how they operate - if you house any dog with a "Guardian" home then the public, in my mind, should be made aware (there was recently a discussion on Guardian homes on here).
> 
> Also if you are a "Hobby" breeder who hides behind the title "Hobby" to brush-off any need to health test then I don't agree with that - as equally as the number of "Hobby" breeders who in reality are far from it - there are increasing reports , allegations of so-called Hobby breeders breeding in excess of the permitted 4 litters - I think that the buying public - and the ones who love their 'Poos and post on such sites as this - also have a duty to out this practice !!!
> Anyone breeding more than 4 litters should have a Council License - and the law / rules and regulations surrounding breeding under license should itself lean towards and more ethical approach and an increased level of Welfare - however this too is always not the case !! So the buying public again have a duty to highlight facts like this too !
> 
> Stephen x
> Cockapoo Breed Advisor for Dog's Today Magazine.


Ok just incase this post is possibly about me,perhaps not but here goes.I have 9 dogs,3 are retired,one will never have pups due to cateracts,one is only 11 weeks old and one is only approaching one so will not have pups for at least another year,anything under that is too young,that just leaves 3,i will not ever have more than 3 litters a year,ive only ever had one litter a year up to date,all my dogs are health tested and i am still and always will be a hobby breeder,my dogs are first and foremost my pets and will remain with me til the day they die.If this post was not aimed at me then im glad i have had my say incase this was maby what some people perhaps were thinking xxx


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## EvaClareEva

I don't think this post was referring about you as you are a true hobby breeder in every sense of the word that breeds very occasionally you may have 9 dogs but you are not breeding them they are pets and I don't know how anyone could call you a breeder as what a laugh you hardly have any litters xx


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## mandym

EvaClareEva said:


> I don't think this post was referring about you as you are a true hobby breeder in every sense of the word that breeds very occasionally you may have 9 dogs but you are not breeding them they are pets and I don't know how anyone could call you a breeder as what a laugh you hardly have any litters xx


Haha thanks yes im hoping it wasnt but wanted to explain my large canine family lol yeh its a good job i dont rely on any money from a litter otherwise id be living like a hobo lol.yes i may have a lot of dogs but its simply because i do not rehome them x


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## Jukee Doodles

mandym said:


> Ok just incase this post is possibly about me,perhaps not but here goes.I have 9 dogs,3 are retired,one will never have pups due to cateracts,one is only 11 weeks old and one is only approaching one so will not have pups for at least another year,anything under that is too young,that just leaves 3,i will not ever have more than 3 litters a year,ive only ever had one litter a year up to date,all my dogs are health tested and i am still and always will be a hobby breeder,my dogs are first and foremost my pets and will remain with me til the day they die.If this post was not aimed at me then im glad i have had my say incase this was maby what some people perhaps were thinking xxx


Hi Mandy,

No - My comments were in no way directed at you.

Stephen x


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## mandym

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi Mandy,
> 
> No - My comments were in no way directed at you.
> 
> Stephen x


Phew thanks x


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## Glendreamcockapoos

I'm not really getting your point, Stephen. If a breeder has puppies available at 2/3/4 weeks etc; then it surly goes without saying that these puppies are not actually available to leave, but only available for reservation. It's common for breeders to retain puppies for themselves with a view to selecting the one(s) they are planning to keep to continue with an ongoing breeding programme or particular bloodline. In most instances, I'd say these puppies (usually advertised over the age of 8 weeks) have been seen by no one other than their breeder, mainly because until such times that the breeder has eliminated them from their consideration as a 'keeper', they're not technically available.

In my opinion, a truly open and above board breeder would in no way have complete strangers wandering around their premises. How would the breeder know where these 'customers' had been before hand? I would call myself a truly open and above board breeder, as you call it, and there is absolutely no way I would allow members of the public to wander at will around my dogs and premises. With the number of viruses, parvo, distemper etc; there is no way I wouldn't put my puppies at risk like that. Sorry.

It goes without saying that responsible breeders should provide potential puppy owners with all relevant paper work and documentation related to the litter. I personally issue my puppy owners with copies of both parents health screening results, I include these in their puppy pack. I'm not really sure I understand where your coming from regarding Guardian Homes? I would have thought this information is only relevant to members of the public if they are interested in purchasing a puppy from a particular bitch(or dog) who happens to live in a Guardian Home? I have several dogs in Guardian Homes and I've personally never found the relevance to discuss them with anyone other than people interested in having a puppy from the particular dog in question. 

I also think potential puppy buyers should always see the mother of the litter they are interested in. They should ask the breeder why they decided to breed from the particular bitch, what her health clearances are, see proof of certificates, but also ask the breeder to talk them through why the particular bitch is of suitable breeding quality. I've seen so many poor, poor specimens of cocker spaniels on breeders websites, it's absolutely disgusting. In no way do some of these dogs have suitable conformation to be bred from. They have long backs, short legs, snipey faces, poor bone and substance and in general are pretty bad examples of their breed. Most commonly breeders will say 'she has a lovely temperament' but I don't really think that's enough. Half of the mongrels in local shelters have lovely temperaments!

I personally think ALL breeders should attain a breeders licence. It doesn't matter if you breed one litter per year or ten. 

Paul


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## mandym

My friend has just had a litter with her beautiful girl coco,she only has 2 dogs and wont be having any more,are you saying she should have a licence?Im sorry but i disagree,i have never had more than one litter a year sometimes not even that,i dont think that requires a licence its not worth it and is aimed at the much larger breeder and should stay that way.I also allow new puppy owners to visit around 4 weeks old,its the exciting part of bringing a ne puppy in to your family.How do you explain to new families with children they cant even touch their new puppy and of course they want to see how the puppy reacts to being handled etc.In one of my dog magazines i read about a socialisation programme and it included getting the puppy used to things like getting nails clipped,looking in the ears etc but it also included meeting and being handled by various people including children,men,woman etc it was all part of the socialisation period and is apparently very important.This however is just the way i deal with it and understand every breeder does it his or her way xxx


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## Glendreamcockapoos

Yes I am saying in my opinion your friend should have a licence, Mandy. I think everyone who breeds should be licensed by their local authority. Not only would it cut down on the number of indiscriminate breeders, it would also stop as many dogs being dumped in rescue shelters. All these dogs were obviously bred by someone! In the case of your friend, it's slightly different, she's obviously one of the good ones, but sadly there is no one to police the people who do breed indiscriminately.

As it's not the law then anyone who breeds under 4 litters per year isn't required to be licensed, but I still think they should be. JMO

"How do you explain to new families with children they cant even touch their new puppy and of course they want to see how the puppy reacts to being handled etc"

I explain to them quite simply by saying " As my puppies are unvaccinated, please do not pick them up or touch them". When I explain to people why I don't allow people to touch them they absolutely fully understand. I also had someone drop a Cavalier puppy on my tiled floor about 4 years ago, the puppy broke it's leg in two places, it was horrendous. It was a genuine accident, but I'd rather not take the risk.

As I've been breeding dog for over 12 years, I don't really go by what they say in dog magazines. My puppies are born in my bedroom in a snowsilk whelping box, they stay in their with mum for the first ten days. This allows mum piece and quiet away from the other dogs and time to bond with her puppies. At around 10 days, I then move the puppies into the kitchen, where they stay until they are around 6 weeks of age. During that time, they are exposed to all the general hustle and bustle of a household, the other dogs, cats, hoovers, washing machine etc. They have their nails trimmed for the first time at around 12 days old and they are done every week there after. Obviously they see family and visiting friends, as I know where they've been, I do allow them to handle them, so they are handled with a variety of adults and children prior to leaving me, generally at around 8-9 weeks. From the age of about 3 weeks, I also play them a scary sounds CD, to assist with trying to desensitise them to different sounds. I've never had a puppy leave here being nervous or unsocialsied.

As you said- each to their own 

Paul


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## embee

Just because someone has a local authority license it doesn't make them a 'good' breeder - they are just as capable of breeding indiscriminately, with little or no health testing and without proper records or accountability as someone without a license.


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## Glendreamcockapoos

I agree Mandy. But it would mean everyone breeding was monitored and I think it would clamp down on back yard breeders.


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## Mez-UK

As many of you know I have two F1s and - saw Harley at 5wks but collected him at 8wks at that point I knew he wasn't going to have a curly curly coat but wavy however he from 10wks to around 6-8 months he really looked just like a Spaniel his nose at 5-10wks was stubby however it grew long like the spaniel. I really didn't think he was going to change but then suddenly around 9mths (when adult coat started) he went wild with a mane, beard etc but still looks more spaniel especially when he has been groomed. He also moults not excessive but does shed. However at the moment he resembles a warewolf lol yes due for his clip. Yogi I saw and picked up at 9wks (he became available after someones situation changed) he has a soft curly coat your (hate to use this expression)your normal looking cockapoo and doesn't moult. I love them both equally and saw both sets of their parents. Finally I will also add for the people looking for their first CP I have regular get togethers with big groups of cockapoos and they all do vary in looks, size, coat type. Also another thing to point out is how their coat colour can change as they get older, Blacks can go greyish and a friend who owns Yogis sister was jet black but at 20wks has started to get a lovely reddy brown coming through (its only noticable in certain light) Yogi an Apricot has definately got lighter too. So be prepared its a wonderful x breed and takes many many years of breeding before you can be sure to get that "look" but the gene pool at the moment is just not big enough. Unfortunately we also have some money making quick buck breeders who are passing of dogs as one type and another and no parent health checks because they are achieving high prices. Which is why groups like ILMC, CPUK & CPGB are so important to give good advice from good caring breeders and excisting owners.


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## Sezra

Glendreamcockapoos said:


> I agree Mandy. But it would mean everyone breeding was monitored and I think it would clamp down on back yard breeders.


It may cut down on some people breeding but at the present licensing system is fairly useless. For it to be successful the 'rules' need to be more stringent so that puppy farms cannot operate the way they do and that people cannot breed un health tested dogs just make a few hundred ££££s and to satisfy the publics desire to wake up on a Saturday morning and go and buy a puppy. It is all too easy in my opinion to breed or buy a dog without doing any research. I don't know what the answer is and I am sure most of them are unworkable due to lack of resources/finance and the ability to 'police' any system that is put in place. I just feel that at present what is in place is not enough. 

I will probably get shot down now


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## Jon Buoy

Sezra said:


> I will probably get shot down now


Sarah, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. When I hear some of the practices employed by some licensed breeders, it does make me wonder how easy it must be to pull the wool over the eyes of the licensing inspector.

I'm sure some councils are better than others, but the current system is not fit for purpose IMO and too many prospective owners accept that Licensed Breeder=Good Breeder, which is clearly not always the case.


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## ali-s.j.

I agree with everything you said too Sarah.
There will be some councils who take licencing seriously, others will make a token gesture. 
Breeders who are reluctant to up their game will be forced to behave responsibly as potential buyers are empowered by the knowledge they gain from CCGB, COCUK and as the word spreads. He who pays the piper calls the tune. CCGB has set the bar high, and the bar will continue to be raised.
There are an increasing number of pedigree breeders who are making the switch to Cockapoos, some of whom are doing so as they realise the demand for them, and the price they command. These breeders may not always understand the reasons why cockapoos became so popular, and are still living in the "show" world, far removed from the world we inhabit on ILMC!
Personally, I take issue with bitches being removed from their "Guardian" home at 6 weeks pregnant to whelp in unfamiliar surroundings, without the love and support of their own humans (there was a whole thread on this but I can't find it to post link!) In my opinion, using "guardian" homes for bitches is just a way to make more money, without having to look after them. 
I don't care if a puppy is born in front of the Aga, in the dining room, or outside in a warm, made fit for purpose kennel, as long as it is born out of a mother who has been loved and cared for properly, and will have as much guarantee as is possible to not have an inherited disease.


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## Jon Buoy

Here's the thread you were looking for Ali
http://ilovemycockapoo.com/showthread.php?t=7765

I too feel really unhappy at the thought of Guardian homes and can't understand the ethics behind the concept. The only motivation I can see is financial. The Guardian home gets a cheap puppy and the breeder is able to maintain control over more breeding bitches. It does not seem fair to the bitch who is taken away to unfamiliar surroundings at a time when she should be relaxed and comfortable.

It would be a great shame if this practice became more commonplace and / or accepted.


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## Glendreamcockapoos

*Personally, I take issue with bitches being removed from their "Guardian" home at 6 weeks pregnant to whelp in unfamiliar surroundings, without the love and support of their own humans (there was a whole thread on this but I can't find it to post link!) In my opinion, using "guardian" homes for bitches is just a way to make more money, without having to look after them. *

As your not a breeder Ali, the Guardian Home programme is probably not something your familiar with.

All of my bitches in Guardian Homes come back to me for boarding when their guardian families are on holiday, they also come back for grooming and obviously as my guardian families are friends or extended family I have a close and ongoing relationship with the dogs.

I have found that my Guardian Care Home Programme is the best way for me to continue with ongoing breeding plans, without having to keep my dogs permanently in kennels. I know some people are happy to keep 15 + breeding bitches in kennels and produce litters from them each year, but it's really not my idea of dog ownership. 

As with all breeds you get good and bad breeders. Maybe some of the 'pedigree' breeders have turned over to Cockapoos genuinely because they love the breed................

We are all entitled to our own opinions and views at the end of the day but I don't personally understand how people who are not involved with dog breeding are suitable qualified to advise on topics they clearly know nothing about.

I'm not really into tit for tat on forums so if you would like to continue this off list then please email me privately; [email protected]

Have a good day,

Paul


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## Jon Buoy

Glendreamcockapoos said:


> I'm not really into tit for tat on forums so if you would like to continue this off list then please email me privately


Isn't the whole point of a forum to enable everyone to voice their opinions and enable greater understanding of different ideas?

I'm not a breeder and have only recently entered the world of dog ownership, but I was surprised to hear that the practice of guardian homes existed. 

You describe yourself as a hobby kennel, but need to employ these practices "to continue with ongoing breeding plans".

How many litters a year can a breeder produce and still claim to be a hobby breeder?


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## ali-s.j.

Please do not patronise me Paul - you do not know me, nor anything about my life experience. 
I was not aware that we had embarked on tit for tat, I thought we were having a healthy debate on an issue that has been raised on here recently, and as a relatively new practice in the world of GB Cockapoo breeding, it is an issue which many of us believe needs to be debated openly and honestly. I have nothing to say in a private email which could not, or should not be said in the open.


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## Glendreamcockapoos

*You describe yourself as a hobby kennel, but need to employ these practices "to continue with ongoing breeding plans".
How many litters a year can a breeder produce and still claim to be a hobby breeder? *

I think it depends on the individual and their long term breeding plans. I would class myself as a hobby kennel as my dogs are quite simply 'my hobby'. I don't think the term hobby is necessarily relevant to how many litters you breed. I am fully licensed with my local authority, as is required legally, but I would still class myself as a hobby kennel. 

*You describe yourself as a hobby kennel, but need to employ these practices "to continue with ongoing breeding plans".*

No, actually I don't need to, I make the choice to do so. I find the Guardian home programme works extremely well for me. I couldn't possibly compete with the one to one family homes that my Guardian families provide and as I've said having kennels full of dogs isn't really my idea of dog ownership. As this thread isn't about Guardian Homes, if you would like to talk to me further about it, then you'd be best to email me; [email protected]

Paul


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## Glendreamcockapoos

*Please do not patronise me Paul - you do not know me, nor anything about my life experience.*

Likewise, Ali! 

Paul


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## Jukee Doodles

Glendreamcockapoos said:


> *
> 
> We are all entitled to our own opinions and views at the end of the day but I don't personally understand how people who are not involved with dog breeding are suitable qualified to advise on topics they clearly know nothing about.
> 
> *


*

I believe that as a Licensed Breeder myself that I am qualified to observe that not very many Council Licensing Officers have had any dog breeding experience what so ever. They learn what the issues are from training and of course their trusted checklist. They have no particular knowledge of EMRA or the dogs emotional welfare and are primarily looking to see that the facilities are up to scratch. You may find yourself very surprised to find on forums like this that through a lot of open debate, actual training in welfare/rescue centre, onsite training in the field in breeding kennels and in depth meetings on the protocols that will aid and guide ethical breeding in the Cockapoo community, that there are a number of very well educated non-breeders here that have an excellent understanding of dog breeding. Julia*


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## Glendreamcockapoos

*you do not know me, nor anything about my life experience*

PS. Actually, I do! My mum lives in West Barns and I walks my dogs at Barns Ness most days


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## ali-s.j.

I do not know about the official classifications, but the understanding on this forum has always been, to my knowledge, that a Home breeder is one who produces the occasional litter (like Mandym) a Hobby breeder is one who produces fewer than 4. Surely you cannot be licensed, breeding more than one breed, sending bitches out to Guardian homes and still claim to be a hobby breeder.
This is not intended to be a criticism Paul, just my opinion.


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## ali-s.j.

Glendreamcockapoos said:


> *you do not know me, nor anything about my life experience*
> 
> PS. Actually, I do! My mum lives in West Barns and I walks my dogs at Barns Ness most days


Oh, have we met then? Do you mean John Muir country park, I am there most days. I have only very occasionally walked mine at Barns Ness. I don't remember meeting any men with Cockapoos, or Cavaliers come to think of it. 
Perhaps I will see you over there some time, we could have a healthy debate face to face.....


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## Glendreamcockapoos

No, John Muir is very busy with dogs and as I usually have several with me, I avoid it. They are also doing building work there at the moment so lots of vans, diggers, etc.
Barns Ness is quiet. I've not met you that I'm aware of .................... yet!


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## Jukee Doodles

ali-s.j. said:


> I do not know about the official classifications, but the understanding on this forum has always been, to my knowledge, that a Home breeder is one who produces the occasional litter (like Mandym) a Hobby breeder is one who produces fewer than 4. Surely you cannot be licensed, breeding more than one breed, sending bitches out to Guardian homes and still claim to be a hobby breeder.
> This is not intended to be a criticism Paul, just my opinion.


In your keenness to let Ali know you live nearby you seem to have skipped responding to her query. Julia


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## Glendreamcockapoos

Thanks but I can read, Julia. I don't feel the need to reply.

Paul


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## ali-s.j.

Paul, we have had them all on ILMC - the cross breed haters, the puppy farmers, the people who just like to stir things up......
In the main, we are a group of cockapoo lovers, owners or enthusiasts, some also are home, hobby and licensed breeders, we have seen the birth of 2 clubs, each with a different way of doing things, but with a common goal - to safeguard our beloved breed and to see all breeders conforming to an ethical approach to breeding.
Most members are here to share stories of their pets, to seek advice when needed, and to share experiences they have had to help others. We have all cried together when one of our number has been gravely ill, and offered comfort to those in need of it in their personal lives.
Since you joined the forum in April, you have posted advice on 2 threads, and entered this debate. You have not introduced your dogs. I am not sure what your motivation for joining the forum is.


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## wellerfeller

I have taken off irrelevant posts, it's getting way off track.


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## ali-s.j.

Disagree with that Karen, could have moved posts to another thread.....


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## wellerfeller

This could all have been posted on the relevant thread in the first place, there was already one in existence as you know.
I know all threads go off topic but this is about generation cockapoos, so let's get in back on track. If you wish to carry on this discussion, take it over to the guardian thread or create a new one. Thank you.


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## Pollypiglet

mandym said:


> Haha thanks yes im hoping it wasnt but wanted to explain my large canine family lol yeh its a good job i dont rely on any money from a litter otherwise id be living like a hobo lol.yes i may have a lot of dogs but its simply because i do not rehome them x


Just had to say that the internet is a great place to rubbish breeders. Hattie and Mintons breeder was wrongly accused of being a puppy farmer on a Horse and Hound forum purely due to her pictures of her breeding bitches, she was accused of having far to many dogs by people who had never met or even spoken to her. The saddest thing was the original post on the Horse and Hound forum was from a lady who's mother wanted a cockapoo. Due to the thread being hijacked by trolls this poor lady was bullied out of her choice of dog and went for another breed in the belief that cockapoo breeders were asking far too much money and all ran puppy farms. Only pedigree dogs were the ones to go for?!! Always make up your mind having had personal contact with a breeders what you see on the net is not always the real story.


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