# New beginnings



## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

https://vimeo.com/134176697

Ok so to some people this might not seem very amazing , but ...
Walks with Lola were normally off lead ( when we got to her field ) however the 100 metre path to that was via lead and pull pull pull. Part of Lola's new regime is to be kept in a lead for now. Bit tricky to film but this was the first walk out after Ken came Sunday. Now I wish I had one of her pulling prior but ...... 


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Desperately trying to film that she was next to me but had visions of tripping up  but you can see her lead is loose ... YAY !!! 


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Fabulous and very impressive loose lead walking!
If you could go back to the beginning with Lola - what would you have done differently, with the wisdom of hind sight and Ken's input?


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Treated her like a dog and not a human! 
Too much fuss spoilt her 
She thought she was one of us and in turn thought everything in the house etc belonged to her hence the guarding issue 
Now she has nothing to guard or worry about and is calm! 
In my defence if she had been mine then I would have done things different from the start .... But I told my daughter that she was the owner and therefore in charge 
So I respected her and went with her way I guess 
Doesn't matter now obviously as we've reset her ️!!! 


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## Nia'smum (Feb 13, 2015)

Can I ask what the difference is I know you said treat as a dog not as a human it interested in what that actually means. What are you doing on a day to day now that is different to last week??? I'm very pleased for you all xxx 


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

As in we would talk silly to her, pick her up and fuss her constantly , allow her up on the sofa with us etc etc 
Now she gets ignored initially when we come in 
Now sofa , no silly talking no fuss for no reason !! Basically put her last in the pecking order so she is a follower and not a pack leader.
Thankyou I am too! xxx


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## Nia'smum (Feb 13, 2015)

Oh dear that sounds like us with Buddy..... It makes sense. Did he say this was way of behaving with a dog always leads to the troubles you had or can do? As part of the reason we do it is obviously they are so cute and hard to resist but also I keep thinking he is 13 weeks old he is just a baby...... But don't want to store trouble for the future. 


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Lola is the poster girl for loose lead walking. I wish she could come and give Rufus a few pointers.

It's so hard to put into words the "air" or "aura" or "zen" you need to have with a dog and so easy to misinterpret it as domination. I like to suggest that newbies walk with an experienced dog person (with well behaved dogs) to pick up the vibe for themselves. Once you get it then all the fussing in the world will not spoil your dog but without it I suppose treating them like a dog is the easiest fix.


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Nia's mum, I'm far from an expert and prior to our mans advice if you'd say to me about auras and energy I would have prob smiled politely and thought you were mad! 
Personally if I had the time over again at 13 weeks as hard as it is, I'd lessen the affection for now and remind your puppy that it's not in charge 
It's the last one on the list as far as greeting, eating etc goes. There's loads of time for affection once the puppy has respect and trust!! 
Lola was perfect at 13 weeks so we carried on with spoiling her 
A bit like a child can be when they're spoilt I guess.... 
Lola hadn't any respect for us nor did she trust us such 
Luckily we didn't ignore it or leave it too late to turn it around . 
Like I say I'm no way a pro at all 
My opinion is literally what we were told and it was spot on . The techniques now in use are 100 % working and all I give on that is my word xx


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

The easiest way to think I think of it is the same as kids. If you raise a child without rules and discipline then you are making trouble for everyone and just because you have rules and discipline it does in no way mean you love less.
However as much as some people love their dogs they cause confusion in them by humanising them. A dog will never be a person, think like a person or react like a person and vice versa. Simple, calm and co operative relationships are the best ones. When you spoil a pup with endless rewards, fuss and love that's what you get..... A spoilt pup.
I don't want to dominate my dog I just want him to trust me and they don't trust those they don't respect. It's stuff everyone knows but can fail to implement on a cute bundle of fluff!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

The trainers I've had with Barney are confident, upright, calm - I'm trying to copy that behaviour - and I guess that's what you mean Fairlie?


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Yes, it's a pilot to copilot dynamic, you being the pilot.


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

So glad everything has finally been resolved and everyone is happy. Beautiful loose lead walking.


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Awww thankyou! 
Hope to improve on it but it was first day x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

fairlie said:


> Yes, it's a pilot to copilot dynamic, you being the pilot.


Oh I rather like the idea of that!


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## jeanette (May 10, 2015)

Fantastic loose lead walking Lola, keep up the great work x


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wonderful loose lead walking. Good Girl Lola. These little pups are so cute, but they are pups with a whole different way of looking at things. You don't ever need to dominate them, you just need to be kind, but mean what you say. If you don't want them biting your ankles, then stop it right from the start, don't ever laugh when they do it to someone else. It's ALWAYS a no, no. If we are consistent about everything we want from our dogs, then they know, understand and trust us. Otherwise dog and humans get confused. It's really quite simple.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I understand we should ignore them till we're ready to greet them, and wonder if that applies eg first thing in the morning when they rush up (my legs usually) to say hello... I'm guessing the answer is yes isn't it?! 

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## Biscuit (Feb 21, 2015)

Delighted for you and Lola that things are looking so positive. Really felt for you when you thought that you might have to re home her. She is a beautiful dog.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Cat 53 said:


> It's ALWAYS a no, no. If we are consistent about everything we want from our dogs, then they know, understand and trust us. Otherwise dog and humans get confused. It's really quite simple.


I totally agree with you here but I'm confused as it seems according to many positive reinforcement trainers, we shouldn't say no, we should just ignore bad behaviour. Frankly I think a firm NO when necessary is going to be clearer to the puppy and speed up the process. Does that not make sense?


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

If you would like some reading then look up Jan Fennell dog listener, she has written lots on this kind of bonding.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Another good book is The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell.


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Re mornings 
Yes def! 
It's really hard but stick the kettle on and make a cuppa then say hello!! 
️


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## Nia'smum (Feb 13, 2015)

What let out of crate ignore make cuppa then say hello? or keep increase till you made cuppa.... As I get up either at alarm... he hears us, wakes up barks to get out, or we hear him bark to get out, get up to let him out and open door to do a wee then make a cuppa with a pup going mad at us jumping up running scatty etc x 


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

I would get up 
Let him out but without fuss 
Make a cuppa whilst he does his business then when back in fuss? 
X 


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Just ignore the jumping up 
Put a knee up to stop it 
He will soon give up and wander off 
Then gets cuddles x 


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Janey153 said:


> I totally agree with you here but I'm confused as it seems according to many positive reinforcement trainers, we shouldn't say no, we should just ignore bad behaviour. Frankly I think a firm NO when necessary is going to be clearer to the puppy and speed up the process. Does that not make sense?


Distraction is my method of choice, right from the start and everyone had to do it. We said 'no, don't do that, chomp on this you little monster' but in a conversational sort of way. Like you would to a toddler who has put a whole loo roll down the toilet, but hasn't yet grasped the English language! Inwardly cursing, outwardly calm and reasonable. I think the ONLY time I yelled at Max was when I had mopped up after home for about the twentieth time and I knew that he knew better. He never did it again.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

So yelling did work then?!


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Completely!


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I rest my case m'lud!


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Despite what all the books say about saying no, I give my two a firm no when they're doing something they're not meant to be and they stop straight away !


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

I do find it all a bit confusing. I realised I had the Jan Fennell book and so I've been reading it today. She talks about ignoring them after an absence, which I understand, and also if your dog sits in front of you and looks at you, you should ignore him /her. Yet my trainer says I should reward him when he looks at me, on walks particularly. And never tell him off! 

I realise we have to take what works for us from these different methods, but I guess it's the leader /dominance thing that confuses me particularly. Should we eat before them? Should we go out the door first, or is that old hat now? 

Confused of Brighton 😊


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Try not to worry about it too much. That itself can tie you in knots and cause problems. The difference between a dog coming and sitting staring at you at home is more a demand for attention, when they look to you out on a walk they are looking for guidance and so that's why you reward it. It's a different communication.
If you want Kens number then pm either myself or Zoe. He does puppy visits to get people off on the right path. It will clear up all the confusion for you as when you see it for yourself it is so easy to understand. It is so hard to explain thoroughly by writing. I'm not sure what he charges for this but consider it an investment into the next 15 years of happy living with your pup. Just an option for you to consider.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Karen. I'm trying to just take bits that work for me, and much of it is crosses over from both methods. 

Barney looks at me on walks for treats rather than guidance, something my trainer says is fine. Previous trainer with previous dog said wasn't fine! 

I'm a little dubious about some so called 'dog whisperers' and though I'm delighted that Ken worked so well for Lola's Grammy, there are some aspects that look a bit too much like the Cesar Milan way which wouldn't suit me. I'm happy with my trainer right now and will continue with her, and realise I need to be consistent which can be difficult for me at times! Patience is required! 

Thanks again. X


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Puppies should follow 
Eat before and walk out the door before 
Makes sense 
If you had a toddler and an open door would you walk first or your little one? 
Leading is a huge responsibility for a puppy 
Ken doesn't agree with cesar milans methods his are different more calming ️


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you! That's good to hear 😊


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Think what works for some people might not always work for you. What ever your method . Consistency is the main thing.
Even that is hard sometimes, like when asking them to sit at the kerb and rewarding but not verbally is hard to remember as you often treat and say good girl or boy at home, but not meant to when asking to sit at the kerb. its all a bit confusing at times! Oh well we are only human and even we can't get it right all of the time.


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

We're not meant to reward verbally at the kerb? Barney actually sits automatically at the kerb - such a clever boy! - so I can treat him but not say good boy? What's the reasoning behind that? 

And I'm sure you are way more than human  x


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## Goosey (Aug 22, 2014)

Not sure Lou about the last comment 
I've been told that you shouldn't tell them that it's good because it's something that they're expected to do. Like I said it gets confusing. I guess if they get treats then that's as good as saying they're doing right. Molly will sit and Sid does most times but he gets distracted by just looking at Molly so he just stands and looks at her with that silly look, but then he is a male x


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Lou you are over thinking this and getting all tied up in knots. Of course you can speak to your dog, reward can be verbal, physical or food based. You are trying to understand something that is impossible to do so by being written on here. I would stop trying to use bits of this and bits of that and just go by what your trainer is telling you. Most important thing is to be calm and relaxed.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Marking is telling the dog it's doing what you want, doesn't matter if it is a click, yes or good boy. Treating is the reward or reinforcement for doing as asked or used to shape the behaviour. In the kerb situation you can lose the mark as soon as he sits reliably and then lose the treat because the moving on to wherever becomes the reinforcement. At first you can randomly throw in some marks and treats to cement the behaviour, that is called an intermitant variable schedule of reinforcement, just to confuse you further.


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

I will also add that these two methods are not the same thing. Training is teaching your dog commands, sit, stay, don't jump the other is more about respect and bonding between the dog and human. If you have the right foundations the training is much much easier.
X


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you all 😊x


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## Janey153 (Mar 26, 2015)

Actually Karen, though I can see that the training class I went to (and left!) was about teaching commands, the 121s are more about our bonding and behaviour together as well teaching me how to manage his (improved) leg biting on walks and loose lead walking. 
I'm also learning from the Jan Fennell book about the basics of being the leader and how to put that into action, and her particular methods of dealing with specific areas do cross over with what my 121 trainer advises.


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

It's us humans that need the training !! 
Not the dogs! 


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Agree 100% and it is why some trainers who are really, really good with dogs cannot convey the info required to the people who are trying to learn. The really good ones are fabulous people teachers too, not just dog teachers. If I was King every new puppy person would have to take a class with a great trainer *pre* puppy.


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## beekeeper (May 3, 2015)

In the past and on poor advice, I ignored my puppy's unwanted behaviour. For weeks and weeks I was told "just ignore him, he will stop". It was the worst advice I was ever given and it came from a dog trainer. She was wrong. My puppy needed to know boundaries. He needed to know it was unacceptable to bite me. It took a very long time to 'undo' his behaviour. I believe in kind methods and positive reinforcement but dogs still need to know what is acceptable and what is not.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I honestly think it depends on the dynamic between the dog and owner. Someone who knows dogs well and has an easy going puppy can probably ignore bad behaviour. My previous dog Max was like this, she was eager to please and wanted to do the right thing. Rufus was fiendishly bad and I needed to tell him off with a throaty growly "no" on several occassions. One was for pooing in the house after he knew to go outdoors and the other was for loose leash walking after hours and hours of trying all the other techniques. Otherwise I kept him on a house line to stop the biting, cat chasing, demolition, jumping up, stealing stuff and all his other charming habits.


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## arlo (Mar 11, 2013)

Lola's Grammy I am so so pleased that things went so well with Ken. I have been away and was very eager to see how you got on, what great news. I admire you greatly, how is your daughter finding the new rules? We are having some problems with Arlo having mood swings and when he is being good and comes for a cuddle I don't feel strong enough to turn him away. I know we will have to do something as he has drawn blood on my husband more than once and bitten him several times he has bitten me a couple of times. None of this started until he was about two so probably a totally different situation. Good luck with Lolas training it looks like she is going to be a real star.


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

Arlo 
She struggled to start with but she can see the benefits so is on board ... She does miss cuddles but I've assured her they aren't gone forever . That's odd that he should do that now? I just presumed it was a young dog thing... has anything changed ? 
Thankyou for you luck wishes
Means a lot ... Everyone's does xx


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## sueanddaisy (Jun 17, 2015)

Lola'sGrammy said:


> Treated her like a dog and not a human!
> Too much fuss spoilt her
> She thought she was one of us and in turn thought everything in the house etc belonged to her hence the guarding issue
> Now she has nothing to guard or worry about and is calm!
> ...


so glad things are better and you are all happier


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Well done Lola's Grammy, it is interesting reading all this, I think i read far too much and tried every possible method with Dudley when he was a pup, he has turned out pretty good, although has some little anxieties and I think that could be down to us trying too hard to get everything perfect when he was a pup...luckily he has never had any kind of guarding issue's, he is still too spoilt with attention though to be honest, it is so hard to ignore them isn't it?! The best behaved dogs you find are quite often those kept in kennels, they see far less of their owners and so are very eager to please them and get a slight pat or a 'good boy/girl'. Dudley gets lots of fuss just for looking good or being there - no wonder he can't be bothered to do anything when we ask - unless of course there is a high value treat on offer. But I am so pleased that he is good natured with all people and other dogs, he will tolerate nippy pups and he will play with much larger dogs too so i count my blessings, as that makes life with him very enjoyable. - Had a large young Goldendoodle here today, he pinched Dudley's stag bar but Dudley just played and held on to it in a little tug of war, no possessiveness at all.


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## sueanddaisy (Jun 17, 2015)

Janey153 said:


> I understand we should ignore them till we're ready to greet them, and wonder if that applies eg first thing in the morning when they rush up (my legs usually) to say hello... I'm guessing the answer is yes isn't it?!
> 
> Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


I have now leant from greeting diesel early in the morning a bad thing, he is so excited he just pees all over the place ...ooooops.... but now I don't talk to him or look at him until he has been outside and had his pee, then I give him a little stroke, not too much fuss. seems to be working. even when I get visitors I have to tell them not to make a fuss of him as he WILL pee on them haha


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## Lola'sGrammy (Mar 1, 2015)

At the end of the day a puppy is just that.... The humans rule the house and as long as puppy knows his or her place in the pecking order, a happy house it should be. Puppies are happiest when they only have to be " a dog" they don't want to be leaders it can stress them out and lead to problems ( sometimes) Lola is far happier being a follower now 


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## Barneyboy (Apr 5, 2015)

I find it all very confusing. When Barney started being nippy and crazy I went back to basics and gave him very little attention, telling him "down" or "leave" when getting into mischief and, if needed, putting him on his house lead. But with lack of attention he went from being a lively bouncy happy looking pup, to a subdued shadow of his former self who would just lie there like he daren't move in case it was wrong - he wouldn't even chew on his toys. I want a dog that will cosy up next to me for a cuddle, and there is no more welcome sight than the waggy bum shake and ear nibble in the morning .. do I have to give these things up to gain doggy respect?


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

No you don't. Key to me is the balance between rules and fun. You need both in equal measure. For every "you can't do that" provide a "but we can do this" that meets the need they were expressing and you will gain his admiration, trust and his friendship. For me a day without a waggy bum shake and ear nibble would not be worth getting out of bed for.


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