# Puppy Paperwork



## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

Hello everyone,
I went this week to visit someone whose own cocker spaniel has had cockapoo pups. I fell in love with one of the pups and gave a deposit. I forgot to ask to see the paperwork (KC registration for both parents and PRA test clear for the stud). How can I be sure when I go back to see the paperwork next week that it is for the stud and bitch in question? I haven't met the stud or seen a picture - he was a 'professional' brought in for the job. 
Thank you!


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## Sue T (Aug 1, 2012)

Hello. I have just purchased a pup, and the breeder e-mailed me the relevant docs (Such as KC details and PRA DNA check from vet). I then verified the KC details by checking them online with the Kennel Club. The stud in my case was a professional one too. The breeder let me have the link to the site where the Sire was listed, so that I could see the poodle Sire and listed health checks. I also saw the hard copies when I paid my deposit. I think checking the Sire it is a matter of trust with the breeder with yours as of course you don't see the Sire! In addition I felt very comfortable that the Sire was in fact the one on the website by the questions I asked the breeder. Hope this helps. Kind regards

NB: I also telephoned the stud breeder and asked questions to verify the association with the mother.


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## Florida Cockapoo (Aug 24, 2012)

lauralotta said:


> Hello everyone,
> I went this week to visit someone whose own cocker spaniel has had cockapoo pups. I fell in love with one of the pups and gave a deposit. I forgot to ask to see the paperwork (KC registration for both parents and PRA test clear for the stud). How can I be sure when I go back to see the paperwork next week that it is for the stud and bitch in question? I haven't met the stud or seen a picture - he was a 'professional' brought in for the job.
> Thank you!


I would think he should be able to give you the name of the owner of the stud. That way you can contact him your self and maybe you can see the dog that way. The mother should be with the pups as she is the one "taking" care of them and feeding them.


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## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

*Should I back out?*

Hello everyone,

Thank you very much Sue and Kim for your replies. I have had no internet for a while due to moving house so I apologise for not thanking you sooner. 

I went back to visit the puppy for a second time. I was shown a KC registration for the stud which stated KcBVA test for GPRA 'unaffected' but did not mention a DNA test. I was shown a 5 year pedigree for the Mum but no KC registration. I am also a bit concerned that when I have visited only one or two puppies have been there (even after I specifically asked to meet the whole litter). I have been told that the others are at a friend's house. The cocker mother has been present both times.

This puppy is £850. I have paid £150 already but am now strongly considering backing out. I am due to collect very soon. Does anyone have any gut reactions/advice?

Thank you.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Sounds strange. The litter mates shouldn't be separated until they are ready for rehoming.


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## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

Hmm. I felt this was wrong but wasn't sure why. Thanks for your input Ruth. Would you pull out?


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't know.. I sometimes think that these little pups need rescued to a loving home... It's a difficult call.


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## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

*Advice needed!*

I want to rescue him but, at the same time, don't want to give £850 to a breeder who I feel is not being terribly honest and not adhering to recommended breeding standards. Also, I don't want my puppy to go blind!

Any more thoughts out there?!


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Hi Laura, this must be a very difficult situation for you. do you mind answering a few questions? How old are the pups? Did you see the same pups both times, or different ones? 
Did the breeder tell you, when you first enquired, that the parents were both KC registered, and did they tell you then that the father was DNA tested?


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## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

Hello! 

The pups are 7.5 weeks. I was told at first meeting, upon asking, that there was a DNA PRA test however now the person is appearing not to know the difference between BVA and DNA. 

I am worried about giving out identifiable information. I tried to message you but am not allowed as I have only made 4 posts to this forum in total. Are you able to message me an email address? 

I think I saw the same male puppy both times. He was the same colour. My partner and I felt uncomfortable enough that we have examined photos from both meetings and think its the same puppy! There was a sibling there once. 

Yes, advert said they were both KC registered.

Aargh!


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## Jon Buoy (Sep 3, 2011)

*Difficult Decisions*

Buying a puppy does need a certain degree of trust on both sides. You need to be sure that the breeder has shown you the right documentation for the actual parent dogs. The breeder needs to trust that you will care for the puppy as you promise.

If I've understood you correctly, the breeder has told you that both the dam and the sire were KC registered, but you've since discovered that the dam is not. You were told that the sire had been DNA tested clear for PRA, but this is also incorrect, and worse still, the breeder does not appear to know the difference.

The fact that the full litter were not together is also very strange. Was this the case on both occasions? I have heard of disreputable breeders, moving puppies from the kennels where they have been born, to a different home environment in order to portray a different image of the first few weeks of their lives.

The breeder is charging a premium price for these puppies, but does not appear to be offering a premium service for you or the puppies. There are many other breeders who are carrying out the necessary tests and have the required knowledge to breed. You and other prospective owners need to ask the right questions to expose the ignorant or bad breeders and be prepared to walk away if you don't get the right answers.

Your gut instincts have raised these doubts and unfortunately only you can decide what to do.


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Hi Laura,
I echo everything Jon has said above. It is a very difficult decision for you to make, but you have obviously done your research and are well informed.
Your experience highlights the sensible advice often given not to take your cheque book with you when you go to view puppies, as the heart can so easily overrule the head.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.


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## Sue T (Aug 1, 2012)

Hello again. I can only echo the comments what John has said. I personally would have very strong doubts about the person you are buying the puppy from. You could request your deposit back outlining the above reasons. This would give the "breeder" the opportunity to clarify your personal doubts.

In addition I would question if you would feel supported by your breeder with any additional questions you may have, after you have come away with this puppy. 

I have recently paid a deposit for my pup, and by choice (distance), will only see her once before we collect her. I have regular picture updates, and know only too well how attached my husband and myself have become even with the lack of interaction, so its a very personal decision you have to make. Whatever decision you make the people on this board will support you. 

Kind Regards/Sue


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

I too have to echo Ali and Jon's posts as a paper-trail back to parents can be very useful in the longterm.

If you ever chose to breed yourself then you would have paperwork to compare to and check the background of any potential mate - as avoiding in-breeding has got to be high on people's agenda. Without paperwork how can you check that you are not breeding a brother and sister together (and they don't have to come from the same litter to be that close) - if you chose F1B then how can you tell you are not potentially putting daughter back to Dad or Mother to Son ???. There is also the fact that a large amount of the core breeds are in some way related (in-breeding - line-breeding) even with looking to mate a Cocker to another Cocker still requires a high degree of research likewise Poodle to Poodle. KC papers are invaluable - though you would certainly need to make sure you are looking at genuine KC papers - as there are those out their who just down-load a form off the internet and fill it in with whatever names they want to make it look good (and having seen sight of a few used for Cockapoos they don't even use names that are KC recognised either). So if you are asking to see paperwork then most certainly insist on KC documents.
It would also protect you from being miss-sold a dog - as there are reports of dogs being sold as "Cockapoo" that have subsequently resulted in DNA genetic tests that show otherwise.


As for the PRA tests - these have got to be the single most import test to carry out to safe-guard the Cockapoo of tomorrow today.

Avoid or question any advert that merely states "Tested clear for PRA" or just "PRA Clear" as this is likely to be just the BVA test (a good test in it's own right - but not a conclusive result for the breeding of dogs). Any breeder having carried out the DNA test would be more than happy to state it and confirm it. Dogs can either be "Normal / Clear", a "Carrier" or "Affected" - until it shows itself you cannot tell what the dog is unless it is DNA tested. It's ideal to breed with a Clear dog and it's OK to use a "Carrier" (as long as the other half of the paring is Clear - as the worst-case is that the pups would be "Carriers" themselves and as such not develop the condition - as "Affected" dogs would need to have inherited both halves of the gene).

The main worry here is that loads of Cockapoos are being born and more people sometime down the line equally warm to the idea of breeding a litter themselves - so unless DNA testing is done then the likely-hood of "Affected" dogs being bred is huge !....and as the blindness may not show itself for some years I shudder to think how many "Affected" dogs would be bred from before the condition appears. There will be a glut of Cockapoos going blind in time - so making sure any puppy bought has had DNA tested parents is a must. Though breeders should be doing this test - if the Masses openly ask about it (and walk away from those who don't have it) it should prompt those breeders with nothing to hide to do the testing.

Your thread has posed a great question - and I hope we have gone someway to providing some answers - and buying a puppy for anyone should be a great experience, owning a dog can be truly rewarding - but caring for a poorly dog in older age also potentially comes as part of the package so it is certainly worth-while doing the research.

Stephen x


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## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

I personally feel that £850 is far too much to pay for the lack of research with this breeder. I went through a similar experience in that the ad said one thing and then gradually things became uncovered, such as the PRA test not being a DNA one (although it was done soon after) and even worse, our F1B cockapoo turned out to be a cockachon x poo. Although he is now a firm member of our family and we wouldn't change him for the world, that is not what we set out to buy and I feel we paid far too much money for what my breeder called 'just a hobby'. Breeding can never be just a 'hobby' and I feel the term 'hobby breeder' was taken a bit too literally in my case and used as a poor excuse to try and make the issue seem acceptable.

I think if you have doubts, then it's best to ask for a refund of your deposit....like I almost did......as you have very valid reasons for doing so and walk away. It's not worth the years of wondering whether your pup is going to be ok or not and this is obviously something that is important to you.

Good luck! x


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Jukee Doodles said:


> KC papers are invaluable - though you would certainly need to make sure you are looking at genuine KC papers - as there are those out their who just down-load a form off the internet and fill it in with whatever names they want to make it look good


I have only ever seen a form with my pups heritage written on it going back to Gt Gt grandparents which I thought was ok. Having read this thread I thought it would be interesting to check that the names I have are registered with the KC. I'm struggling to find out how to do this... Am I being a muppet?

Ta all!


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

Lozzie said:


> I have only ever seen a form with my pups heritage written on it going back to Gt Gt grandparents which I thought was ok. Having read this thread I thought it would be interesting to check that the names I have are registered with the KC. I'm struggling to find out how to do this... Am I being a muppet?
> 
> Ta all!


Hi Lozzie,

If you follow this link to a page on the Kennel Club's online services, put in a dog's exact registered name, if the system finds it then it's genuine and it will also tell you if any health tests are logged with the KC for that dog too. If it can't find the name on the system then the dog is not KC reg (or you may have put in a typo so it's worth another check): 

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

Below is a link that shows you what the official KC papers look like:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/378

All KC Papers will be endorsed with their Logo.



The Dog Lovers Registration Club UK is equally as acceptable for Pedigree Papers.
Below are example of The Dog Lovers Registration Club UK Ltd papers:





















As you are aware "Cockapoo" is not recognised by the Kennel Club - so The CCGB has set-up a registry for any Cockapoo bred by an approved breeder member.
Below is an example of CCGB Registration Papers:














Below is a link to a website that provides a blank template for anyone to "create a Pedigree Certificate" that could be used to fool people into thinking their dogs come with some kind of genuine background. These Certs can have any name whatsoever entered and it all looks pretty convincing:

http://www.sitstay.com/dog/supplies/servlet/PedigreeGeneratorView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1


Hope that helps.

Stephen x


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## loopyloo (Aug 18, 2012)

Lozzie said:


> I have only ever seen a form with my pups heritage written on it going back to Gt Gt grandparents which I thought was ok. Having read this thread I thought it would be interesting to check that the names I have are registered with the KC. I'm struggling to find out how to do this... Am I being a muppet?
> 
> Ta all!


Don't know if I dare ask but have you found anything Laura?


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the info Stephen!


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Hi, apart from the DNA PRA and all other paperwork the biggest alarm bells would be that the rest of the litter are at a ' friends' house there is no good or logical reason that should happen. I am afraid I would cut my losses and run.


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## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

*Thank you everyone*

Thank you all so much for your support. It was a terribly hard decision but I did not purchase the puppy. I was so tempted to go ahead and 'rescue' him but my partner stood firm. I was so emotional I didn't even ask for my deposit back. I have about 50 photos of him and I had named him the name I have been planning to use for years. 

The story continues...

My partner will be working from home, starting this week, for at least the next 4 months. After that I can work flexibly and family are available to help - but we wanted to have the puppy from the beginning of my partner's time spent working at home so as to give him the longest possible time with someone home all day.

After I pulled out I began my Cockapoo hunt again and found a breeder who had two 13 week old Cockapoos left from a litter after the person who reserved both of them had to pull out. 

We went to see this breeder yesterday. She seemed very nice (and honest) and both of the parents were there to meet. The dogs were family pets and seemed lovely. The breeder had pedigree and registration details for both parents and a clear DNA PRA certificate. As he is already 13 weeks old we took him home with us! He is microchipped and came with a whole heap of paperwork and information.

It's all been a bit of a whirlwind but I have learned a lot about good and bad Cockapoo breeding. I am very happy to have found Norman and slowly need to forget about the first puppy. Norman is so handsome. I'll upload a photo...


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Laura, it was a horrible experience for you, but if more people can be as strong as you, and dodgy breeders find it harder to sell, fewer puppies will be born from untested parents, in less than satisfactory conditions. 
Draw a line under it, and congratulate yourself on having found Norman - now that is a fantastic name, looking forward to seeing photos of him. Have a wonderful time with him :hug:


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Well done for sticking to what you knew was right, it can be so hard when you see the cute little pups, hope you will enjoy Norman - brilliant name!


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## Jon Buoy (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm sure that you have made the correct decision and Norman is a lucky boy to have found you.


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## Sue T (Aug 1, 2012)

I am thrilled that you came to this decision, however difficult it must have been. As you say, its all been a rollercoaster, and all in addition of the house move. So pleased that you have the health tested pup that you wanted all along. Thanks for letting us know the outcome of the right decision. You will be able to enjoy your pup now knowing that he is DNA PRA checked and that your pup has come from a reputable breeder who truly cared. Kind regards to you/Sue


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## lady amanda (Nov 26, 2010)

can we see a picture of your new baby?


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## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

Well done for following your head and not your heart...which is all so easily done. I sounds like you've hit the jackpot with Norman! Look forward to seeing a pic! x


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## lauralotta (Sep 27, 2012)

*Norman*

Thank you everyone. It's very reassuring that you all agree with our difficult decision.
We are very happy with Norman!


















These close up pictures seem to make him look bigger than he is. He is very yummy and babyish!


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## Sarette (Mar 21, 2011)

Have I missed photos of Norman?! he sounds lovely and I am so very pleased for you and so thrilled that you had the strength to walk away from the first "breeder". Bravo! 

xxx


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## Mogdog (Feb 6, 2011)

Ahh, Norman looks adorable, so glad you made the right decision and are very happy with the result!


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Norman is very very handsome, and really suits his name


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## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

Fantastic news with the arrival of little Norman!! He is gorgeous with a great name. I definitely think you did the right thing. im glad u found what u were looking for. He really is stunning xx


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## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

Norman is gorgeous and his colouring is really lovely. Do keep us posted as to how you all get on! x


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