# Barf



## embee

Since BARF and raw feeding is such a hot topic, especially for those of us making or thinking about making the switch thought I'd start up a specific thread.

I called Natural Instinct and placed an order yesterday so 10kg of Natural Instinct Chicken is arriving on Tuesday. I spoke to a lovely lady on the phone when I placed my order who was really helpful. She also said she'll put some free jerky in with the order for Flo to try.

I said I was giving Flo a couple of frozen chicken wings for some meals (about 200g) and she said not to give them completely frozen as the cartilage in the wings would be really brittle. She said to thaw or at least partially thaw them.

I dropped by a local butcher on Friday and picked up two big raw bones Friday
and Flo had her first one today - she has been gnawing on it constantly since 10.00 this morning with no signs of stopping and it is now 1.00pm!

Wilfiboy - Are Wilf and Mabel just on Natural Instinct now with no Orijen kibble meals? Do you do one Natural Instinct and one chicken wing meal each day? How much food are you giving them each day?

Dylansmum - Do let Dylan gnaw away at his bones when he wants or do you only give them certain times. I think Flo will be chewing her bone till midnight if I leave it out!

Cara - let me know how it goes switching Izzy over and will be interesting to here if she has any stomach problems once on raw.

Jukee Doodles - Do you feed your dogs once or twice a day?

Flo has suddenly put on weight since her last check-up and has gone up from 10.7kg to 11.3kg at 15". She doesn't seem (feel) overweight as she is a really stocky/broad build but vet suggested aiming to keep her at 11kg so I'm thinking I'll give her 200g Natural Instinct per day with half about 8am and half about 6pm.


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## Dylansmum

embee said:


> I said I was giving Flo a couple of frozen chicken wings for some meals (about 200g) and she said not to give them completely frozen as the cartilage in the wings would be really brittle. She said to thaw or at least partially thaw them.
> 
> I dropped by a local butcher on Friday and picked up two big raw bones Friday
> and Flo had her first one today - she has been gnawing on it constantly since 10.00 this morning with no signs of stopping and it is now 1.00pm!
> 
> 
> Dylansmum - Do let Dylan gnaw away at his bones when he wants or do you only give them certain times. I think Flo will be chewing her bone till midnight if I leave it out!
> 
> Flo has suddenly put on weight since her last check-up and has gone up from 10.7kg to 11.3kg at 15". She doesn't seem (feel) overweight as she is a really stocky/broad build but vet suggested aiming to keep her at 11kg so I'm thinking I'll give her 200g Natural Instinct per day with half about 8am and half about 6pm.


That's good to know about the chicken wings - I wouldn't have realised that, although I'm not giving them any more anyway.
Glad to hear that Flo is enjoying her bone!
I leave Dylan's bones out all the time, as they don't seem to go off. They just dry up. But it's entirely up to you. Whatever works best for you. Flo will probably get tired eventually and leave it for a while! Dylan always has a few knocking around the house which he'll gnaw at when he's bored. When there's too many I throw a few away.
I had the same thing with Dylan's weight - I think it was the castration combined with him stopping growing. I went away for a week and noticed that he looked podgy when I got back and he'd put on nearly 2 kilos. As a puppy I was feeding about 360g a day, and I've cut him back to about 220-240g now, split into 2 meals. He's lost half a kilo and weighs 9.5 now. I reckon 9 would be ideal, but he's pretty much ok now.


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## caradunne

Nasty picture - this bone chewing thing is going to be difficult for me! Ughhhhhh - but I will get one when the butcher opens on Tuesday and overcome my sillyness. Izzy weighs about 6.3 ks and I am going to give her approx 150g per day eventually. I am going to phase in the NI over a week. The NI web says if you want to phase it give 3/4 daily food kibble in the morning and some NI in the evening. I think Iz will burst if she has so much food in one sitting, but I am going to try. I don't want to switch in one go as she has such a sensitive gut. She also eats nice food far too quickly and I can imagine the NI going in and then coming back out if I try a whole meal to begin with. How exciting, but I keep thinking of negatives - eg I had planned to get a pet passport and take her gite - ing in the future, I guess I would have to make her food from scratch. Kendal what does your kennel do if a dog is a Bark dog? I am sure this will be a busy thread! xx


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## caradunne

Of course I meant BARF dog! The silly computer with its spell check changer!!!!


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## Dylansmum

caradunne said:


> How exciting, but I keep thinking of negatives - eg I had planned to get a pet passport and take her gite - ing in the future, I guess I would have to make her food from scratch. Kendal what does your kennel do if a dog is a Bark dog? I am sure this will be a busy thread! xx


If you keep one of the insulated boxes from a Natural Instinct delivery, then the food will stay frozen for about 48 hours in that. Assuming you are driving to your gite, you could take 2 or 3 packs with you and pop them back in the freezer when you arrive. Even if the food defrosts a little, it is still safe to refreeze.


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## kendal

i live the bones out to lol but with 4 but maily just Echo and Delta the outer meat is gone in no time. 


never had an isure with frozen chiken wings. 


dogs eather lose weight when on raw or put it on, it just means their bady is absorbing the right nutrience from the food. just play it by ear if she feels ****** cut her back. 


nutered dogs are prone to putting on weight


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## wilfiboy

I just swapped them both straight over, my Orijens had run out so bought some Applaws pouches to tide me over and when the Natural Instincts came I just went for it. I've made a 1kg pack last 3 days so, I suppose that makes it approx 165g each a day and a chicken wing. I feed them about an hour after a walk so often around 11ish then chicken wing between 5 and 6 ... I say between these times it used to be 6 but Mable can start meowing at you from 5 !!! The woman was lovely on the phone was lovely, my order came promtly. We've had no adverse effects..just Mable being able to eat even quicker than normal. Flo looks to be loving her bone .... good luck next week x


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## embee

Once on a raw diet do they need more regular worming? Flo is currently wormed every 6 months.


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## Dylansmum

I wouldn't think so - never heard of that being an issue.


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## embee

Dylansmum said:


> I wouldn't think so - never heard of that being an issue.


When I mentioned BARF to my vet when I first got Flo he threw up his hands in horror and persuaded me against it because he said if she was ever ill they wouldn't be able to rule out diet deficiency and also said she would need worming more often. It's only through finding Natural Instinct that I'm confident enough to get started as the vet put me off.

My packs on Tesco Value chicken wings arrived today with my shopping delivery - quite a shock to realise that human consumption chicken wings are cheaper than some cheap dog kibble! One wing (at 100g) is the perfect size for a meal. For the moment all animal parts (wings, bones etc) are confined to the garden).

Natural Instinct arrives tomorrow - how exciting (but how sad that the highlight of my week will be a raw dog food delivery and an agility lesson)


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## embee

Dylansmum said:


> I wouldn't think so - never heard of that being an issue.


When I mentioned BARF to my vet when I first got Flo he threw up his hands in horror and persuaded me against it because he said if she was ever ill they wouldn't be able to rule out diet deficiency and also said she would need worming more often . It's only through finding Natural Instinct that I'm confident enough to get started as the vet put me off.

My packs on Tesco Value chicken wings arrived today with my shopping delivery - quite a shock to realise that human consumption chicken wings are cheaper than some cheap dog kibble! One wing (at 100g) is the perfect size for a meal. For the moment all animal parts (wings, bones etc) are confined to the garden).

Natural Instinct arrives tomorrow - how exciting (but how sad) that the highlight of my week will be a raw dog food delivery and an agility lesson 

Interestingly when we went for our off lead walk this lunchtime Flo came across the bottom half of a rabbit and I did wonder if she would see it and think "ohhhh a picnic" now that she is tucking into raw food at home but she sniffed it and just walked away (helped a little by my letting out a huge roar and running at her like a crazed thing to persuade her that isn't wasn't on the menu)


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## Dylansmum

When I put my last dog on Barf, my vet practically accused me of abuse, but he lived to 17 and was walking in the park the day he died. He also didn't need to see a vet for the last 5 years of his life, so I figure I had the last laugh. But I too prefer the "respectability" of a balanced vet-approved raw diet like Natural Instinct. They don't treat you quite like an mad person with that! Don't know for sure about the worming. I use Advocate anyway, which also works for most worms, so my vet told me that I only needed to use Drontal every 6 months for roundworm.


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## weez74

I tried Rosie on Orijen, but it really didn't suit her 

I'm going to look into Applaws next (after giving her a suitable period of time without a tummy upset, poor little girl) and I might build up to Natural Instinct some day.


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## embee

weez74 said:


> I tried Rosie on Orijen, but it really didn't suit her
> 
> I'm going to look into Applaws next (after giving her a suitable period of time without a tummy upset, poor little girl) and I might build up to Natural Instinct some day.


You should watch to see how Cara does with Izzy when she switches her to Natural Instinct as Izzy has had tummy problems as well I think.


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## wilfiboy

Loiuse are you going dry Applaws? At least the rabbit was dead Mandy lol. I dont weigh the chicken wings they just get one a day even though they can vary a great deal in size ... feel a bit mean on the days they are small. Yeh I was excited for my delivery .. shows what an exciting life we lead at least you're going to agility I'll be going to work x


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## caradunne

Sadly I am also excited about the delivery tomorrow! I will keep you updated re her tummy, hopefully it will all go OK. Have to face the butcher tomorrow though to get a bone! Also ordered some of the deer antler bits, they sound good and not as messy as bones. Ohhhhhhhh it is nearly as good as waiting for a new frock to arrive from House of Fraser or John Lewis, no such shops here!xx


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## embee

caradunne said:


> Sadly I am also excited about the delivery tomorrow! I will keep you updated re her tummy, hopefully it will all go OK. Have to face the butcher tomorrow though to get a bone! Also ordered some of the deer antler bits, they sound good and not as messy as bones. Ohhhhhhhh it is nearly as good as waiting for a new frock to arrive from House of Fraser or John Lewis, no such shops here!xx


I felt really awkward going into the butcher but when I asked if he had bones for dogs he fetched a tray out of the freezer as if it was a common request. She has really enjoyed her bone and it isn't all that yucky really. Now she has chewed off all the 'bits' and got the marrow out it is quite clean. She keeps returning to it and is slowly gnawing away at the bone - it must be doing her teeth the world of good. Up to now when she has got bored she has rummaged in the hedges and pulled out a stick which she chews but now her bone is in the garden she is happy to keep returning to it. Flo has just tucked into another wing for her tea - although she polished it off really quickly so she may have swallowed it whole - I'm not prepared to do what Wilfiboy does and hold a raw wing while she tucks in to slow her down.

I must say it is heartening to see Flo have a good gnaw on a bone and I would swear she had a skip in her step when we went for a walk today and looked just a little bit more 'doggy'.


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## Dylansmum

embee said:


> Up to now when she has got bored she has rummaged in the hedges and pulled out a stick which she chews but now her bone is in the garden she is happy to keep returning to it.
> I must say it is heartening to see Flo have a good gnaw on a bone and I would swear she had a skip in her step when we went for a walk today and looked just a little bit more 'doggy'.


So pleased that Flo is having fun 
Just one thing to bear in mind - I get foxes in my garden so I don't leave any bones out overnight in case they decide to share them!


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## wilfiboy

You're getting yours tomorrow as well Cara... ooh exciting ... I think more exciting than getting a frock cos every time you "have" to get a frock its just a reminder that you are no longer a size 10 lol . Im sure Izzy will be fine, its probably easier on her stomach. Look forward to hearing how Flo and Izzy get on. Are you going for it or intruducing it slowly Mandy? x


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## embee

wilfiboy said:


> You're getting yours tomorrow as well Cara... ooh exciting ... I think more exciting than getting a frock cos every time you "have" to get a frock its just a reminder that you are no longer a size 10 lol . Im sure Izzy will be fine, its probably easier on her stomach. Look forward to hearing how Flo and Izzy get on. Are you going for it or intruducing it slowly Mandy? x


Just switch straight over as Flo is already having some chicken wing meals and has been just fine. The 'helpful' lady at Natural Instinct said a straight switch is OK with non sensitive dogs but she advises a gradual change for dogs with stomach/skin problems or allergies.

I still have quite a bit of Origen left so will use it as training treats and may give a kibble meal once or twice a week till it's gone then I'll decide whether to give the occasional kibble meal now and again so she can still 'tolerate' kibble. Have you switched Wilf and Mable right over now? Do you plan to use kibble or biscuit based treats at all or are you now a BARF purist??


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## Sarette

Am following this thread with interest


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## wilfiboy

I just swapped them over when it came Id already run out so bought some Applaws pouches to tide me over.Been using liver cake as a training reward so kibble free here. It feels right .. in time I might even go back to making my own food/ barf patties or maybe do both if they'll tolerate what i make !!! Thats why I went onto kibble in the first place cos Wilf went off it so wait and see... have been googling cook books lol obviously nowt better to do ... good luck tomorrow looking forward to seeing if she likes it, I'm sure she will x


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## weez74

Wow, Karen. That's devotion! I normally find it hard to muster up the energy to cook for my kids. 

I haven't thought that much about Applaws, tbh - I've just noted that you guys have been using it, and am going to look into it after I've let Rosie's stomach settle. The JWB puppy food recommends that you switch to Junior food at 6 months and Rosie is already 5 months, so I think I'll phase in the Junior food in the same flavour (am hoping the same brand/flavour won't be too much of a change for her), leave it a couple of months and then try Applaws.


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## wilfiboy

Mine loved the pouches Louise, it looked really nice i think my son would have gone for it if Id served it lol. So if the dry is made of the same then Im sure Rosie will like it, Wilf would take or leave the Orijen, you said that Rosie was nt that bothered. x


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## caradunne

Well it has arrived - looks a bit like hamburger mix. I have partially defrosted one pack and cut it into 50g portions so that I can phase it in over the week. Once the grandual switch is completed I plan to give her 180g a day NI divided into two meals, some horrible looking dry liver treats and bones. She weighs 6.5k and is very active. Looking at the 50g segment I cut, 180g will make two quite small meals. I hadn't thought of continuing some kibble meals, I guess that could be useful and I do have two packs of Burns over half full. I will let you know if she gobbles it up and then looks at me to say 'well where is the rest?' xx


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## Dylansmum

caradunne said:


> Looking at the 50g segment I cut, 180g will make two quite small meals. I hadn't thought of continuing some kibble meals, I guess that could be useful and I do have two packs of Burns over half full. I will let you know if she gobbles it up and then looks at me to say 'well where is the rest?' xx


I give Dylan about 100-120g x 2 meals as he weighs 9.5 kilos and that is plenty. Didn't realise Iz was so small! Hope she enjoys it.


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## caradunne

Dylansmum said:


> I give Dylan about 100-120g x 2 meals as he weighs 9.5 kilos and that is plenty. Didn't realise Iz was so small! Hope she enjoys it.


I have disected a bone out of a half leg of lamb and Izzy now has it, Everytime I go near her she growls and snarls at me! She now has it on the sofa and there is no way she is letting me move her! It has made her into a wild dog! I actually felt that she would go for me if I got any closer - is this a common response? xx


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## lady amanda

Well to say the least....she really likes it!!!!!!!!!!! she is just worried that you are going to take this fantastic thing away from her....make sure to nip that quick.


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## Dylansmum

Think it is quite common - brings out the wolf in them! Never had that from Dylan though - he's really chilled and docile.
But think you should nip it in the bud. You must be able to give and take bones as well as everything else from her. Unless you really think that she will bite you, I'd take it away and put her outside to calm down. Then practice giving it in a really controlled way, making her sit and keep taking it away and giving it back until she chills.
Just one point though - I wouldn't introduce too many new foods at once. If you are giving her her NI today then I would keep the bones a week maybe. You can pop it in the freezer meanwhile. Good luck!


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## lady amanda

Also try the trade game. when you take something away. give her something else, like her fav toy or something....that way when something is taken away, it doesn't mean it is gone and you get nothing, it just means you might get something else


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## caradunne

Phew - traded going upstairs. She calmed down after about half an hour and the remains are now in the bin. I do really think she would have bitten me, she was really snarling at me. I will wait a while before getting another one and try and work out how to manage this - oh she is searching for it! xx


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## wilfiboy

Gosh Izzy the wolf !!! Hope the NI was a little calmer, has she had that yet. Got my bones from butcher today she did nt charge me ... I had to wait until "they'd boned out"...they were stood in the field a coiuple of days ago !! Just during conversation it turns out they can get chicken carcasses... so she's getting me some .. they put them through the mincer for some people... will message Jukee Doodles to see exactly what they do. Hope you got your delivery as well Mandy x


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## Dylansmum

I tend to give bones mostly when I have to go out, so I would give it and then leave the house. If you use a crate you can give it in the crate, or else wherever you leave her when you go out. Alternatively when you are in you could give it to her in the garden and just leave her to it. However in principle I think you should teach her that you are in control until she stops being aggressive with them. The only wierd behaviour I get with Dylan is when he walks around with a bone in his mouth whining endlessly.


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## Dylansmum

wilfiboy said:


> Gosh Izzy the wolf !!! Hope the NI was a little calmer, has she had that yet. Got my bones from butcher today she did nt charge me ... I had to wait until "they'd boned out"...they were stood in the field a coiuple of days ago !! Just during conversation it turns out they can get chicken carcasses... so she's getting me some .. they put them through the mincer for some people... will message Jukee Doodles to see exactly what they do. Hope you got your delivery as well Mandy x


I used to give whole chicken carcasses to my cavalier and he loved them. Just one thing to watch - a diet very high in bones can make them constipated. If that happens then you need to give a lower proportion of bones.


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## wilfiboy

I can imagine its already very dry and sometimes even powdery.. what made you stop giving the carcasses? Is the noise him ttrying to find some where to hide it.. Wilf will often hide a pigs ear either inside or out ... it often takes us a while to find them, if he brings them in when they ve been weathered they go in the bin !!!


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## tessybear

My cocker spaniel used to bury her bone instantly then spend hours digging up the garden looking for it! They certainly can act weird when they have a bone. She was a very docile animal but she turned into a scary monster when she had a bone in her mouth!


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## caradunne

She has had her first portion of NI, she surveyed it for a while then ate it quite slowly - savouring the juicy blood - yummy! xx


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## wilfiboy

Oh Cara your such a lovely Mummy going to all this trouble with your baby when you can tell you really dont like it... Well Done x


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## caradunne

Thank you - I was then going to write ' bow, bow', meaning I am taking a bow, but it may be interpreted in a doggy way! xx


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## Dylansmum

wilfiboy said:


> I can imagine its already very dry and sometimes even powdery.. what made you stop giving the carcasses? Is the noise him ttrying to find some where to hide it.. Wilf will often hide a pigs ear either inside or out ... it often takes us a while to find them, if he brings them in when they ve been weathered they go in the bin !!!


I think it was laziness as much as anything. It was hard to get them. I switched to necks which the pet shop sold in frozen packs and also gave nature diet packs. The main reason I don't go that route now is partly because I find it easier to give a ready mixed barf diet also because I know it is balanced and has the extra nutrients like salmon oil and kelp. It's just simpler and no hassle and Dylan is happy on it.


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## kendal

my lot only realy grown at eachother when they have bones but i still thend to tak it off them if i think its to much and will switch them about so that they share propperly. 

when first giving a bone i normaly keep a hold of it (no good for the veggies sorry) but i like to teach them that it is my bone and i am only letting them have it. 

next time keep a lead on her so you have something that you can get a hold off witout having to touch her. be firm and remove her from it, then take her back to it but make her work for it. 

the reason why they can get growly over bones is because they want them so bad, it like if you had three thing put infrount of you and one of them was your ultimet fave thing in the world youl want it at what ever cost. look at kids they always want the bigist bit of cake or the better toy. 

its a very high value treat for a dog.


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## embee

wilfiboy said:


> Gosh Izzy the wolf !!! Hope the NI was a little calmer, has she had that yet. Got my bones from butcher today she did nt charge me ... I had to wait until "they'd boned out"...they were stood in the field a coiuple of days ago !! Just during conversation it turns out they can get chicken carcasses... so she's getting me some .. they put them through the mincer for some people... will message Jukee Doodles to see exactly what they do. Hope you got your delivery as well Mandy x


My NI arrived today so I'm just putting first pack in fridge overnight to defrost. I'm planning to give Flo 2 x 100g meals per day as she also gets quite a lot of training treats. It will be difficult to know if that will be a sufficient amount as she always seems to be ravenously hungry!

Sounds like you've found a great butcher to support your raw feeding Wilfiboy. When I visited Jukee Doodles they just gave each spaniel a chicken carcass each which the dogs just chewed away at, they didn't mince them down.

Flo was like Izzy when she got her first bone (which was a leg of lamb bone). Her whole stance and behaviour changed through instinct and I had to be really firm taking it away - she did look quite 'cross' but I just took it anyway made her sit them gave it straight back. Now she gets a bone often and also chicken wings to chomp through she's not quite so 'possessive'. They clearly get a huge amount of pleasure and satisfaction from being able to eat like a 'dog' and gnaw at real bones. Same as Izzy - when I took her first bone away she was bereft and paced about looking for it.


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## embee

caradunne said:


> She has had her first portion of NI, she surveyed it for a while then ate it quite slowly - savouring the juicy blood - yummy! xx


You're really getting into this aren't you  I'm getting great pleasure out of seeing Flo relishing her new diet and my eldest boy sat watching her eat her chicken wing. As she crunched away he said "it just looks right".


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## Dylansmum

I think that one of the reasons that some behaviour therapists believe in barf for problem dogs is that they think that gnawing the bones helps to relieve aggression and alleviate boredom. In satisfying the animal instinct they believe that some problem behaviours will be helped. That and of course achieving optimum nutrition.


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## caradunne

Thanks for the advice Kendal, I have been pondering how I will manage the training. Mandy you are right, it does feel very appropriate and I am already looking forward to cutting a chicken wing off a chicken to give her next week. She is still her gorgeous cuddly self this morning all yawny and wanting a massage to wake up. I was amazed at her behaviour yesterday as I can usually take anything out of her mouth - her favs are tissues and bits of bread the birds have dropped. I couldn't get closer than a foot, I wasn't even going to take it away, I just wanted to share the pleasure! xx


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## embee

caradunne said:


> Thanks for the advice Kendal, I have been pondering how I will manage the training. Mandy you are right, it does feel very appropriate and I am already looking forward to cutting a chicken wing off a chicken to give her next week. She is still her gorgeous cuddly self this morning all yawny and wanting a massage to wake up. I was amazed at her behaviour yesterday as I can usually take anything out of her mouth - her favs are tissues and bits of bread the birds have dropped. I couldn't get closer than a foot, I wasn't even going to take it away, I just wanted to share the pleasure! xx


Tesco do a pack of 12 Value Chicken Wings for about £2 if you haven't got a chicken handy to take wings from. When I asked NI if they did wings they said they didn't as they couldn't do them for a better price than wings for humans in the supermarket. Flo had her first NI meal this morning. The food looks good, really meaty and not at all yucky. She normally seems to just swallow her kibble whole but she ate her NI really slowly as if getting real pleasure from eating it.

How is Izzy's tummy with her new food?


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## caradunne

How is Izzy's tummy with her new food?[/QUOTE]


Yes Izzy really savoured hers - tummy OK this morning xx


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## wilfiboy

I think they'll all be fine,glad Flo enjoyed it as well. Asda do trays of chicken wings similar price, Im sure they all do, occaisionally asda and tesco are out of stock so dont leave it til you really need them x


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## caradunne

Hilarious - the bone consumed yesterday resulted in 6 little white poos this morning! Took all of 10 secs to eat this evening's NI portion - tummy still OK. xx


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## Dylansmum

caradunne said:


> Hilarious - the bone consumed yesterday resulted in 6 little white poos this morning! Took all of 10 secs to eat this evening's NI portion - tummy still OK. xx


You will find that that is mostly what they will look like from now on. You can see how they are absorbing everything from their food.


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## DeKneez

you'd only need to worm more if the food was contaminated with worms or worm eggs! hence worming a bird or mouse catching cat more often because they carry worms etc which get eaten


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## DeKneez

oh and a question, our little oscar is just 2kg at min, how much would he eat if i switched to natural instinct? i'm thinking the food will go off before he's finished a box?


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## caradunne

They say 2 - 3% of body weight per day. Izzy is 6.5Kg and very active so I am aiming at 180g a day. She was so fine this morning that I have now just gone for it and given her all NI today, no kibble. She is certainly eating without any enticement. xx


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## caradunne

Forgot to say that I bought it in 400g packs, which was more expensive. It would have been easy to cut it up when slightly thawed and put some back in the freezer, so you wouldn't waste any. xx


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## Dylansmum

DeKneez said:


> oh and a question, our little oscar is just 2kg at min, how much would he eat if i switched to natural instinct? i'm thinking the food will go off before he's finished a box?


When they are puppies they need more food - 4-6% of their body weight daily. Then once their growth has steadied, adult amounts are 2-3% of their weight. I used to give Dylan 100g x 3 meals a day. Around 9-10 months I took him down to 2 meals a day of about 150g, but then he put on too much weight so I reduced him to adult amounts of 100-120g x 2 meals. He went up to nearly 10 kg, but is now down to 9.5kg which is about right - maybe 9 would be slightly better. So Oscar would get about 120g per day (sorry can't remember his age but I'm assuming he's very young). They do grow and put on weight really fast though! Cara's suggestion about thawing slightly and refreezing is a good one - NI have assured me that it is perfectly ok to refreeze as long as it is not completely defrosted. The only downside is that you would have to repackage the portions. You can keep it in the fridge for about 4 days after defrosting completely.


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## tessybear

I really like the sound of the barf diet. At what age can you put a puppy on it?


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## embee

tessybear said:


> I really like the sound of the barf diet. At what age can you put a puppy on it?


I think they can be weaned onto barf, so any time.

The NI food Dylansmum has recommended is fantastic. I was kind of thinking the whole thing would be gruesome and yucky but the NI product looks great and doesn't smell at all as it is just good quality minced down chicken and veg.

Flo does so little poo now it's hard to find any to pick up and anything she does do is really small, light and dry!!


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## tessybear

It looks brilliant, thanks I've pretty much decided to go for it. I wish I'd thought about it for my cav he never liked dog food.


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## caradunne

My experiece so far is the same as Mandy's with Flo - poo is geat and also she is drinking less. The only downside at the moment is that she does seem hungry after her meal. It is so concentrated that there is less of it and I guess she has to get used to that. AS you all know I was very worried about the transition as she has such a sensitive gut, but there has been no problem whatsoever and I think I could have just switched over. As Mandy says the quality is amazing - a bit of salt and pepper and you could probably fry it up! So a big thank you to Helen for all the advice. We gave her another bone yesterday from the butcher and that was successfully managed, she had it for half an hour then back in the fridge. The deer antler is still not being touched at all xx


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## Dylansmum

caradunne said:


> My experiece so far is the same as Mandy's with Flo - poo is geat and also she is drinking less. The only downside at the moment is that she does seem hungry after her meal. It is so concentrated that there is less of it and I guess she has to get used to that. AS you all know I was very worried about the transition as she has such a sensitive gut, but there has been no problem whatsoever and I think I could have just switched over. As Mandy says the quality is amazing - a bit of salt and pepper and you could probably fry it up! So a big thank you to Helen for all the advice. We gave her another bone yesterday from the butcher and that was successfully managed, she had it for half an hour then back in the fridge. The deer antler is still not being touched at all xx


Cara, I'm surprised that her portion size is lower with NI. I would have thought that it would be smaller with kibble. However it might not be hunger but just that she really likes it and wants more! Keep an eye on her weight and adjust the amount accordingly - she seems to be quite active so you could probably give 3% of her weight if necessary.
As regards the deer antler, I think if something is too hard then they are not keen. On their website I vaguely remember they advise roughening the surface and soaking it to soften a bit to gain their interest. It's like nylabones - Dylan is not interested at all in those.


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## caradunne

Thanks Helen, I will try softening the antler. xx


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## embee

caradunne said:


> My experiece so far is the same as Mandy's with Flo - poo is geat and also she is drinking less. The only downside at the moment is that she does seem hungry after her meal. It is so concentrated that there is less of it and I guess she has to get used to that. AS you all know I was very worried about the transition as she has such a sensitive gut, but there has been no problem whatsoever and I think I could have just switched over. As Mandy says the quality is amazing - a bit of salt and pepper and you could probably fry it up! So a big thank you to Helen for all the advice. We gave her another bone yesterday from the butcher and that was successfully managed, she had it for half an hour then back in the fridge. The deer antler is still not being touched at all xx


I put Flo's evening meal into her kong and into the hole in her bone where she got the marrow out then put them in the garden, so supper lasted her a bit longer than when I just put it in her bowl. She seemed more satisfied as it took longer to eat and she spent quite a while afterwards licking and chewing the bone.

I'd just watch her weight until you get the amounts right to make sure she's getting enough. When Flo had her 1.5 year check up a few eeks ago she was 11.3kg and the vet thought she should really be kept at 11kg for her height and build. I weighed her yesterday and she is now 11kg. I'll probably let her go down to 10.5kg then adjust the NI to keep her at that weight. She is only 15" in height but quite broad and stocky (like her dad).


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## wilfiboy

Good idea about hollow bone and kong cos Mables ahs gone in literally seconds !! Got some kibble off my sister and did a "kibble test". Put 2 bowls down at the same time for both dogs, one with kibble one with NI, Mable did nt even sniff the kibble, tucked straight into Ni with gusto, my more sedate boy sniffed the kibble then ate the NI .... chosen x


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## DeKneez

Dylansmum said:


> When they are puppies they need more food - 4-6% of their body weight daily. Then once their growth has steadied, adult amounts are 2-3% of their weight. I used to give Dylan 100g x 3 meals a day. Around 9-10 months I took him down to 2 meals a day of about 150g, but then he put on too much weight so I reduced him to adult amounts of 100-120g x 2 meals. He went up to nearly 10 kg, but is now down to 9.5kg which is about right - maybe 9 would be slightly better. So Oscar would get about 120g per day (sorry can't remember his age but I'm assuming he's very young). They do grow and put on weight really fast though! Cara's suggestion about thawing slightly and refreezing is a good one - NI have assured me that it is perfectly ok to refreeze as long as it is not completely defrosted. The only downside is that you would have to repackage the portions. You can keep it in the fridge for about 4 days after defrosting completely.


He's 17 weeks hes a mini dads a toy poodle and oscar was the runt, i've been kinda doing the freezing etc with natures way or whatever its called. I've been giving him sardines too which he loves! Just pondering the idea of raw as he is so tiny I want him to grow to his full potential x


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## Dylansmum

So glad everyone's enjoying their new grub! It's satisfying to know that you're giving them the very best chance of a healthy life - especially when NI make it so easy!


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## wilfiboy

If its a more natual diet, like they would have in the wild then you would assume they would grow accordingly i.e how they should in the wild . One of the ideas behind Barf is that the pups dont grow too quickly as with some commercial dog food and that the pups bones grow slowly and healthy so to avoid later skeletal and joint issues. x


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## embee

When they eat raw they get so much out of the food nutrition wise that very little comes out the other end so they are clearly getting all the nutrition they need and their body isn't working to expel all the stuff that is of no benefit and can't be digested that is found in some kibble or 'commercial' wet food.

I'm having trouble even finding any poo in the garden nowadays and when I do it is small, very dry and light in weight. Forgive the detail but seeing the difference compared to what I used to have to pick up from kibble and Nature Diet is quite remarkable.


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## embee

Now don't laugh but...

I was working today so I left hubby with Flo and told him to give her a new raw meaty bone to keep her occupied. For some reason he decided to take the bone off her. As he tried to take it she bit his finger - not intentionally but in the tussle to hang on to it - it hurt his finger so much that he gritted his teeth together and broke his front tooth crown . Looks like he'll also lose his nail. He's driving to Prague tomorrow at 2am and can't see a dentist before leaving so he is now in the garage with a tube of super glue thinking about trying to stick his tooth back on - we are advising against it as, to add insult to injury, he may accidentally glue his lip to his tooth.

Flo is in the dog house...


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## Dylansmum

Oh dear  I did try not to laugh - honest! Poor hubby. Moral - a dog with a bone is a wolf in disguise - apart from Dylan who is just plain daft.


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## kendal

embee said:


> Now don't laugh but...
> 
> I was working today so I left hubby with Flo and told him to give her a new raw meaty bone to keep her occupied. For some reason he decided to take the bone off her. As he tried to take it she bit his finger - not intentionally but in the tussle to hang on to it - it hurt his finger so much that he gritted his teeth together and broke his front tooth crown . Looks like he'll also lose his nail. He's driving to Prague tomorrow at 2am and can't see a dentist before leaving so he is now in the garage with a tube of super glue thinking about trying to stick his tooth back on - we are advising against it as, to add insult to injury, he may accidentally glue his lip to his tooth.
> 
> Flo is in the dog house...


their is a product you can get out of boots the chemist that is ment to stick a crown back on untill he can see a dentist.


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## Kel

ohmygosh, your poor husband! Makes me cringe just imagining it all


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## kendal

get dentek

http://www.boots.com/en/Dentek-Cap-and-Crown-Cement-Repair-Kit_867969/


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## wilfiboy

Sounds abetter option than super glue Kendal ... al least he'll be able to talkand smile !! x


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## Jukee Doodles

"No More Nails" !!! well worth a trial ! lol ......................please let me know if it works xxx Stephen x


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## Guest

my thoughts on the BARF diet is its ok but dont feed totally raw food give a complimentary buiscuit as well like royal canin or james welbeloved ,problem with bones is that they can impound in a dogs stomach and the dog will at first do very hard stools which it can have difficulty passing i had a rottweiler called blue and it was touch and go if he survived as he had been given the barf diet and became very bloated and constipated we rushed him to the vet he was operated on and the vet kept the contents of bowel and stomach to show us what they removed from him yuk yuk and more yuk another 30mins and he would of died my vet said to me DO NOT FEED ALL RAW MEAT IT IS DANGEROUS AND EVEN MORE DANGEROUS FOR SMALL DOGS google barf diet dangers of feeding ....


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## Dylansmum

romeo said:


> my thoughts on the BARF diet is its ok but dont feed totally raw food give a complimentary buiscuit as well like royal canin or james welbeloved ,problem with bones is that they can impound in a dogs stomach and the dog will at first do very hard stools which it can have difficulty passing i had a rottweiler called blue and it was touch and go if he survived as he had been given the barf diet and became very bloated and constipated we rushed him to the vet he was operated on and the vet kept the contents of bowel and stomach to show us what they removed from him yuk yuk and more yuk another 30mins and he would of died my vet said to me DO NOT FEED ALL RAW MEAT IT IS DANGEROUS AND EVEN MORE DANGEROUS FOR SMALL DOGS google barf diet dangers of feeding ....


There is absolutely no reason to give dogs biscuit. Yes, if you give too high a percentage of bones then the dog can become constipated. That is one of the reasons why I give Natural Instinct, because not only are the bones ground, but the food is correctly balanced. To give cereal in the form of biscuit is to negate one of the main benefits of barf - ie cereal-free.


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## embee

Dylansmum said:


> There is absolutely no reason to give dogs biscuit. Yes, if you give too high a percentage of bones then the dog can become constipated. That is one of the reasons why I give Natural Instinct, because not only are the bones ground, but the food is correctly balanced. To give cereal in the form of biscuit is to negate one of the main benefits of barf - ie cereal-free.


and cereal based biscuit mixed with BARF can cause digestive problems as BARF is digested easily in 5-6 hours and cereal based food (that takes a lot longer for them to digest as they are not evolved to eat cereal) takes 11-12 hours to digest.


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## Guest

oh well REST IN PEACE BLUE the vets obviously havent got a clue i shall recommend all vets to join this forum they may learn some thing from you 2 experienced cockapoo owners LOL XXX LOVE YOU BOTH LOTS And one more thought BURNS DOG FOOD created by john burns B.V.M.S.M.R.C.V.S.


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## kendal

you dont feed bone every day, you juggle it about, some days all my girlls will get is a joint bone that hase meet on it. they will sit chewing and crunching for hours. other days they will just get meet, then other day just chiken wings, or other days you can mix the two, i also like giving one day in the week where they dont get fed, which is what a number of barf feeders do. 

as of yet i have not herd of any problems with barf other than a frinds collie whos stomoch is ovely sensative to everything.


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## embee

romeo said:


> oh well REST IN PEACE BLUE the vets obviously havent got a clue i shall recommend all vets to join this forum they may learn some thing from you 2 experienced cockapoo owners LOL XXX LOVE YOU BOTH LOTS And one more thought BURNS DOG FOOD created by john burns B.V.M.S.M.R.C.V.S.


Vets will know perfectly well about the pro and cons of feeding regimes but probably don't trust badly informed owners to get the nutritional balance right so recommend commercial kibble and tinned food the safest option.

Lots of celebrities and qualified professionals are used to endorse commercial products, it doesn't make them the best products. Anyone making a decision about a product should do their research and not just make a superficial decision. I looked into BARF feeding and took advice for quite a while before switching Flo over and decided to use Natural Instinct as it is a nutritionally balanced, complete food with right amount of ground bone. I would not have enough knowledge and skills to fed BARF from scratch and wouldn't have tried.


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## kendal

vets only do a very small part of their coarse on feeding, most vets also get a percentage of the profits of brands like science plan (how many of you have been to the vets and that is the brand they have pushed to solve you problem?)

barf is not for everyone, but i have seen it help dog with sever skin allergy's, or weight problems, other dogs becoming calmer and more focused because of the lack of sugars and additives that are in commercial brands. 

i am now on my 4th year of raw feeding. i have slim happy dogs with clossy coats, fab teeth and who have not needed to go the for anything other than the vacc (other than incas mistery sore foot which the vet and i both asume was an insadent while out running )


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## Dylansmum

And by the way, Natural Instinct is vet approved.


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## Guest

very good i appreciate you like it ,but i had a bad experience feeding raw meat and bones and that is my opinion non of you comment on the fact that ahhh how sad i lost a good dog and a beloved pet and i saw the cause of it raw meat and bones be careful what you recommend girls in the hands of experienced one dog owners and new puppy owners it is DANGEROUS .......


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## embee

romeo said:


> the vets obviously havent got a clue i shall recommend all vets to join this forum they may learn some thing from you 2 experienced cockapoo owners LOL


Ummmmm - are you being sarcastic


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## kendal

i compleatly agree once burnd twice shy, can i ask how long her had been on it and exactly what it was he had been eating. 

did he actualy die from that event. very sorry to hear about his passing i have a big soft spot for rotties.


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## embee

romeo said:


> be careful what you recommend girls in the hands of experienced one dog owners and new puppy owners it is DANGEROUS .......


We are simply recommending a pre-prepared, complete dog food that you spoon into your dogs bowl. Why would that be dangerous? If you feel that Natural Instinct food is dangerous you should take it up with the manufacturer.


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## Guest

mandy now who is being sarcastic ! i dont wish to take anything up with a manufacturer im just stating my dog nearly DIED on raw food and i have also had other bad experiences with raw food and i no of many other people also who have been scared by what CAN happen when some dogs dont get on with it .
kendal he was having chicken wings and fresh raw beef the correct amount for his size he was a show dog there are pics on sarah (fallons) website he did live till he was 12 years but went on to eat complete dog food i became paranoid after that ... do you understand how i felt mandy ?? maybe not ...


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## Dylansmum

romeo said:


> non of you comment on the fact that ahhh how sad i lost a good dog and a beloved pet and i saw the cause of it raw meat and bones


Janice, I'm obviously not very bright, because I certainly would sympathise with you if your dog had died, but I think that you stated that he fortunately survived.
I agree with you that there is a lot of controversy surrounding BARF and that it can be dangerous in the hands of inexperienced owners. Just like home-cooked food for dogs, it needs thorough research and care. That's why I only confidently recommend Natural Instinct or similar complete food because it is safe and free from all the hassle and risks. They are experts, the food is balanced and the bones are ground. Those of us who see the benefits to our dogs come to a realisation that it is a win/win diet. 
Anyone who wants to feed BARF independently, like Kendal, or the way that you did, must research and take care and also observe their dogs. If a dog becomes constipated then action must be taken long before it gets to the life-threatening stage. But feeding biscuit is not the answer. Extra veg and less bone would be appropriate without departing from the diet.


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## Jukee Doodles

Romeo - with respect - you demanded sympathy earlier - but he did not die at that time - - thankfully. I must also point out that your feeding plan did not sound BARF to me - as we would certainly not feed fresh raw beef for one - secondly we feed soft raw meaty bones (young boned-out chicken carcasses) - no legs and no wings (though wings would not be a problem) - we also give a starve day at least once a month (to help with their digestion and it acts as a detox) - we also give a "veg day" at least twice a month - where we lightly steam carrots; cabbage; parsnips; swedes; greens; apples; pears; broccoli; cauliflower etc (no onions; garlic; leeks or potatoes) then add some offal (liver; dog mince) just as a flavour - then one complete (inc shell) raw egg per dog into the warm mix and mash it together - they get a couple of ladles full each (which they love !!!) and it clears them out the following day with softer and bigger poos.
We have been doing this (extra work but worth the effort) for the past 2 years and the resultant healthiness of our dogs has vastly improved over the complete kibble we used to use (Purina Pro Plan) - our vet backs us 100%. The condition / cleanliness of their teeth were even remarked about by a new customer at the weekend !

The important elements to include in this diet is the starve days and veg mix - or you are not feeding BARF and thus cannot judge it's effectiveness and as such should not be offering warning or advice against it !

It is misconceived to mix a "biscuit" element into / alongside this diet (as mentioned above several times) because dogs cannot digest both cereal and meaty bones at the same time as they both require differing enzymes to digest. In fact dogs never evolved to eat any cereal and it is purely used as a bulking agent by feed manufacturers.

What I do agree with you Romeo on is that "a little knowledge can be dangerous" - so anyone changing / altering or starting out on a new diet regime must look into that diet completely and understand the balance; subtleties and consequences of their actions.

Stephen x


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## embee

Jukee Doodles said:


> we also give a starve day at least once a month (to help with their digestion and it acts as a detox) - we also give a "veg day" at least twice a month


Do you think a starve day and a veg day is needed when fed a complete raw diet like NI? I suppose it wouldn't do any harm and maybe these principles used with a dog fed any diet would be beneficial.

Does anyone else using NI do starve and veg days?


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## Dylansmum

embee said:


> Do you think a starve day and a veg day is needed when fed a complete raw diet like NI? I suppose it wouldn't do any harm and maybe these principles used with a dog fed any diet would be beneficial.
> 
> Does anyone else using NI do starve and veg days?


I don't think you need a vegetable day as they are in the food anyway. If you fed meat only then you would need it. A fast day would probably be a good thing, but I'm afraid I'm too soft to do that.


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## embee

Dylansmum said:


> I don't think you need a vegetable day as they are in the food anyway. If you fed meat only then you would need it. A fast day would probably be a good thing, but I'm afraid I'm too soft to do that.


I don't think I'd be good at imposing a starve day either. By around 6pm when I'm doing the family meal Flo lies next to her bowl looking up dolefully at me... I'd just give in.


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## wilfiboy

Mable starts meowing from 5 and Wilf sits by the fridge x


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## Jukee Doodles

Hi Fallon,

We are only looking to replicate a natural diet (without cereal) - we have had experience of other dogs with tummy problems that have been resolved by BARF - and Yes it is certainly a case of "horses for courses" !
We have been the Royal Canine route and the Purina Pro Plan route and for us the BARF diet (or even our interpretation of it if people get too fussy) - is a beautifully balanced diet and we regularly get comments on the condition of our dogs. I'm for one am not going to change. I'm not here to direct; dictate or promote - just give honest; impartial (and accurate) information - what people choose to do with it is totally their call.

Hi Mandy and Helen xx - The NI already contains veg - so I would have thought there is no need to add an additional back-up (it takes time and can be messy !!!) - though as NI is as close to the BARF diet that we have in place here then I personally see no harm whatsoever in a starve day - but again - we do it to improve digestion AND as a detox - so it would be up to you if you took that step. It would be a totally natural occurrence in the wild !

Stephen xx


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## Guest

Dogs are CARNIVORES and should be eating meat. In the wild they wouldn't be digging vegetables up would they! They would be hunting for meat not veg. Left over Sunday dinner is OK as there is gravy and meat with it. Also why would you want to starve your dog you wouldn't starve yourself or children would you.


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## wilfiboy

The idea is that a dog would eat greens and vegetation from the intestines of the carcass it was eating, thus getting a balanced diet, in the wild they would also get vegetative matter from eating other animals faeces x


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## Dylansmum

yazmin said:


> Dogs are CARNIVORES and should be eating meat. In the wild they wouldn't be digging vegetables up would they! They would be hunting for meat not veg. Left over Sunday dinner is OK as there is gravy and meat with it. Also why would you want to starve your dog you wouldn't starve yourself or children would you.


The barf diet is based on what a wolf eats in the wild. When they hunt and eat prey, they eat the stomach contents and that includes vegetable and fruit. Around 80-85% meat is fine. They would also have times when they would feast and times when they would go without food.


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## Guest

stephen may i ask what you give your new puppy owners to feed there new puppy on , first time owners need a simple way to feed puppies not every one can feed raw meat and veg they want a complete food that is simple nourishing and clean to handle especially if they have small children around ,there is a risk of salmonella lets face it dogs will hide food if given the opportunity and a busy mother cant be watching all the time , but as for experienced dog owners like some on this forum crack on folks if dog is doing well carry on , must admit i do give cooked chicken of the bone to my crowd especially mummy dogs feeding cheers janice


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## Jukee Doodles

romeo said:


> stephen may i ask what you give your new puppy owners to feed there new puppy on , first time owners need a simple way to feed puppies not every one can feed raw meat and veg they want a complete food that is simple nourishing and clean to handle especially if they have small children around ,there is a risk of salmonella lets face it dogs will hide food if given the opportunity and a busy mother cant be watching all the time , but as for experienced dog owners like some on this forum crack on folks if dog is doing well carry on , must admit i do give cooked chicken of the bone to my crowd especially mummy dogs feeding cheers janice


Yes, you are right, it's probably as little as 1% of the new puppy owners that would carry on feeding a raw diet when they take the pups home. It was our biggest headache to find a puppy food that blended well with our feeding regime. Thanks to Helen, we now use Orijen puppy kibble. Orijen looks and handles like any other dry complete kibble but is 80% chicken, turkey, whole eggs and fish, 20% fruits, veg and botanicals and 0% grain or cereals. Each puppy leaves with an Orijen puppy pack. From the first litter that we weaned onto this food we had an added surprise and a real bonus, mum continued to clear-up the puppies poo after they changed over to eat hard food and she kept the puppies immaculately clean. That's a first for us as previously once our pups start hard food mum stops cleaning up the kennel. This food is expensive, but we have noticed they choose to eat less volume and still look great. It's worth it though, as I presume that you would feel the same, that to produce premium quality pups they need premium quality care. :twothumbs:

Julia


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## Guest

hi julia i will take a look allways open to new food and ideas will tell you what i think cheers janice


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## lady amanda

minor points to add...

As it was mentioned that dogs don't eat veg in the wild....can someone tell Lady that. she enjoys eating different types of greens on our walks, and she loves crunchy lettuce, and cucumber, do you think if they cam across veg in the wild they wouldn't eat it?

A note on Royal Canin, my dog came home with a bag full of Royal Canin, as it is a norm over here for breeders to feed to their dogs. I was concerned about it's ingredients when I had an adverse reaction to it. My face and eyes swelled up, not good, and had to quickly change her diet onto something else so that wouldn't happen.


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## wilfiboy

Seems like a good deal but then again I've never bought carcasses before just got 70 for £8 ... now if the dogs aren't partial thats a hell of alot of stock x


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## Kel

lady amanda said:


> As it was mentioned that dogs don't eat veg in the wild....can someone tell Lady that. she enjoys eating different types of greens on our walks, and she loves crunchy lettuce, and cucumber, do you think if they cam across veg in the wild they wouldn't eat it?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Haha, it seems like dogs will eat anything, doesn't it? Chloe has really been enjoying all the dandelions in our backyard. We cannot eat an apple or carrot in peace since we got her, those are her favourites. She just sits there staring at us until we give her some. I swear, the second I start peeling the sticker off the apple and washing it, she comes running.


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## lady amanda

Lady loves the dandilions too...too much tho...she will eat non stop then she has runny poos


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## Kel

lady amanda said:


> Lady loves the dandilions too...too much tho...she will eat non stop then she has runny poos


Yeah, but how do you stop them from overeating them? Last Thursday, Chloe threw up 5 times and I still have no idea why. She had puppy school the night before, so it could have been from the chicken wieners I brought as treats (we have to bring something softer and something they don't usually get at home)....or it could have been the dandelions...or the little plugs of dirt from aerating the lawn.... Who knows!


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## lady amanda

LOL hahahah I think lady tries to eat the dirt too sometimes...hahah funny dogs! Hope her tummy resolved it's self


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## lady amanda

Oh, no I was saying it is the norm over here for breeders to feed Royal Canin. Almost all of them over here do.


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## Guest

lady amanda said:


> minor points to add...
> 
> As it was mentioned that dogs don't eat veg in the wild....can someone tell Lady that. she enjoys eating different types of greens on our walks, and she loves crunchy lettuce, and cucumber, do you think if they cam across veg in the wild they wouldn't eat it?
> 
> A note on Royal Canin, my dog came home with a bag full of Royal Canin, as it is a norm over here for breeders to feed to their dogs. I was concerned about it's ingredients when I had an adverse reaction to it. My face and eyes swelled up, not good, and had to quickly change her diet onto something else so that wouldn't happen.


Royal canin is ment for the dog not you Amanda. Lol


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## lady amanda

yazmin said:


> Royal canin is ment for the dog not you Amanda. Lol


LOL!!!! hahah but it tasted so good! hahah I am kidding, i took it from the bag with my hand....I guess i must have touched my face...it was horribly unpleasant as in the morning I couldn't open my eyes


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## Dylansmum

wilfiboy said:


> Seems like a good deal but then again I've never bought carcasses before just got 70 for £8 ... now if the dogs aren't partial thats a hell of alot of stock x


Sounds very cheap but a lot of freezer space. My freezer is always crammed with bones.


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## Dylansmum

fallon said:


> As it's the best expensive but worth it. Sorry about your reaction you had Mandy that must of been horrid.


And yet it seems to have been given only 2 or 3 stars (depending on variety) on the independent analysis website.
www.dogfoodanalysis.com


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## lady amanda

http://www.greenfarmhealth.co.uk/royal-canin-dog-food.htm

is that a vet's site? just curious where you got the info from?


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## lady amanda

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1530&cat=all

link to the food rating site for Royal canin puppy


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## wilfiboy

Dylansmum said:


> Sounds very cheap but a lot of freezer space. My freezer is always crammed with bones.


Yeh got a chest freezer just for dogs, which I bought when fed barf before so its been used again... best bit is the butcher wondered if I needed more next week, dont think she knows what a cockapoo is like, sure i told her I only had two


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## Dylansmum

wilfiboy said:


> Yeh got a chest freezer just for dogs, which I bought when fed barf before so its been used again... best bit is the butcher wondered if I needed more next week, dont think she knows what a cockapoo is like, sure i told her I only had two


They'd better get eating!


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## embee

wilfiboy said:


> Seems like a good deal but then again I've never bought carcasses before just got 70 for £8 ... now if the dogs aren't partial thats a hell of alot of stock x


Oh my - 70 carcasses, that'll be an awful lot of chicken stock if they don't eat them. So do you give them whole as one carcass a day each? Do you defrost them first? Think I'll just stick with NI for the moment, I may push hubby over the edge otherwise and things are going quite well at the moment (apart from his nail dropping off and the expensive dental treatment to replace a crown )


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## embee

Don't know whether I'm imagining it but since switching Flo to raw food 3 weeks ago her coat seems to have gone much softer. Can a switch from dry to raw have such a significant effect on the condition of her coat so quickly?


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## Dylansmum

Don't know, but it's good if it has.


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## kendal

a girl i know who fed raw stopped and her dog started scratching like mad again and her tummy chest and under arms became red and inflamed, she wate to se if it would go away, then went to the vets to see if they could do anything, as usual they gve her stuff but it never worked. she then went back onto raw and with it a dy or too her skin started to impruve, she wasnt scratching and the redness went away, by then end of the week she was fine. 


so i would say that 3 weeks is definetly long enough to nosis a difference. however as the cockapoo coat grows consistently, the texture will change anyway. Echo has become very fluffy which i hadnt notist till resently looking at Delta and how similer her coat is to what Echos was at her age. 


clipping the coat also changes the coat, i have seen this at work with some of the terriers. one in particular a border terrier which as a breed sould be hand stripped not clipped, now has a very fluffy coat when is sould be corse. same with weties etc.


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## embee

At the risk of turning into a complete 'barf bore' can I ask you more questions about bones Helen (and anyone else who is raw feeding).

Do you give Dylan bones as food or just to chew on and how many per week?

I now have a freezer full of meaty lamb bones and beef marrow bone/knuckle.

The lamb bones are soft so she can actually eat the whole thing in around 30 mins to 1 hour. The beef bones are really hard so she gets out the marrow but then just gnaws on the bone hardly getting anything off so just for teeth cleaning and something to do.

I realise NI is complete so she doesn't really need to eat lamb bones.

What type and how often do you give Dylan bones? Do you still give him wings as a meal replacement sometimes?


----------



## wilfiboy

I ve been giving a carcass one day then NI and a chicken wing the next day ... but the butcher wanted to know if I wanted more next week not sure what she thought I was doing with them. But I might get another box and have her mince it so it will be like the chicken and bone from NI then I think Im going to do my own veg as per recipe in barf patties... maybe next week x


----------



## embee

wilfiboy said:


> I ve been giving a carcass one day then NI and a chicken wing the next day ... but the butcher wanted to know if I wanted more next week not sure what she thought I was doing with them. But I might get another box and have her mince it so it will be like the chicken and bone from NI then I think Im going to do my own veg as per recipe in barf patties... maybe next week x


Very impressed. I think I've ventured as far as I can for the moment defrosting NI and chucking a few bones around. For the price you can carcasses though it will be much cheaper that way.


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## Dylansmum

Karen I'm so impressed - you're making me ashamed of being so lazy. Dylan wasn't all that keen on chicken wings so I don't bother with them - he is just really happy on NI and I like not having to worry about any choking hazard or dietary balance. I regard bones as leisure as there is little meat on the ones I give but I monitor his weight to make sure I'm not giving too much. I also like the fact that the veg in ni is double ground to break it down to enable the nutrients to be accessed.


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## kendal

i tend to give bones as a meal, as half the time the amout of meet on the bone equles a meal. 

same with chicken wings i tend to give them as a meal.


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## wendy diane

Have read trough thread and think I have come to some sort of conclusion!! Not too sure I would be able to cope with the pressure of making meals from scratch so am thinking Natural Instinct the way to go!
Is it possible to feed a mixture of NI and kibble? Thinking about holidays, stays with friends etc. 
Some cockapoos also have fish and eggs. Advice on this too plaese!!
Will definately be giving the odd bone now and again! Want our Flo to be a proper dog after all!!!!


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## Jukee Doodles

Hi Wendy,

Just a quickie - Yes - I would suggest NI as your main food and Origen as your back-up kibble.

Stephen x


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## wilfiboy

You can give fish and eggs as well. You could take the NI with you, it will refreeze and its delivered in a polystyrene (!!!) box, which you could use to keep it cold for transfer and then just pop it in someones freezer it wont take up much room, its not smelly or anything no one would mind. Have you googled Barf sites or Raw Meaty Bones it shows young pups chomping away and will probably state more about fish and eggs... Ive given mine fresh sardines x


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## Dylansmum

I suspect that once you're on NI you may find you're more reluctant to go back to kibble and will find ways of conveniently feeding raw even when you're away. As Mandy says, it is quite easy to refreeze, or you could pick up chicken wings etc locally. But the option is always there of giving a natural kibble if you wanted. I used to feed other dogs on raw sardines etc, but Dylan never seems keen when I try it, so I don't bother any more.


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## lady amanda

SO we were at a boutique pet shop this saturday and there is an Ontario, Canada company that does the packs like NI it is all portioned out, or in big bags. They gave us a sample to try out with Lady....so once her tummy is better, this squeemish mum is going to give it a try!


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## wilfiboy

Go for it Amanda !! x


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## DeKneez

Sarette said:


> Am following this thread with interest


Me too lol


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## Sarette

DeKneez said:


> Me too lol


I'm also making notes lol!


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## embee

If it helps I umm'ed and ahh'ed about raw for weeks and now I've switched to NI I couldn't be happier.

NI is easy and convenient and it just feels right watching a dog eating 'proper' raw meat and bone. She still enjoys Origen as treats and I'm pretty sure she would happily eat an Origen meal if needed.

Remember that dog food (wet and kibble) is a really recent development and until the 50's dogs were fed on table scraps or, if lucky enough to be a butchers dog, raw meat and bones!!!! Flo is now 'as fit as a butchers dog' 

We are taking her on holiday to Norfolk during summer and I'll simply pop 2 trays of NI in a cool bag - no hassle.

To look at it passes as a wet dog food but without the horrific smell so it wouldn't offend anyone 

PS I'm a veggie so if I can deal with it I'm pretty sure anyone can.


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## wilfiboy

Embee .... was that a slip up


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## embee

wilfiboy said:


> Embee .... was that a slip up


Opps... Hope no-one spotted it... Edit...


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## caradunne

An Izzy update: Some background on Izzy (if you haven't read about her before) - she had diarrhoea from day one, she would move around the room straining with blood and mucus, it was sad as she was so cute. It took two months to get her sorted, she has a very sensitive gut as a result and subsequently she has had many bouts of gut problem; I have to be very careful about her food. She also has runny eyes, constantly itching ears and skin - she has been regularly vet checked. We are hoping the BARF will help her. I started phasing in the Natural Instinct two weeks ago and after two days stopped phasing and just fed her NI as she was experiencing no tummy problems. Since the start her poo has been non-smelly, small and firm. She drinks far less water and consequently seems to pee less often. I can't say it has had any impact on her scratching but foolishly I used the Tropiclean shampoo and conditioner for the first time last week, so that change could be causing her to itch. Her eyes do seem less runny but her ears are still itching her. It is early days and I think after a month will be a reasonable time to judge the overall impact. I will go back to the normal shampoo for now and let you know how it goes. She was getting some tartar build up on her back teeth and that seems to have gone with the bone gnawing. In the first week she lost weight and went from 6.2K to 5.9K so I increased the daily NI to 200g. The second week she has put on weight and is now 6.3K. I want her to be about 6.5K but I think that increase is too much in one week so I will reduce the NI to 180g a day and see how she goes. xx


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## wendy diane

Thanks everyone for the advice. Now all I have to do is wait for Flo to be old enough to come home!!!
I think I will talk to the breeder as well on our next visit. I know she uses NI with her dogs but I think Flo will be on a kibble called Beta. I've looked this up and it has fairly good reports. 
Thanks again everyone for the advice! Guess I will have lots more questions for you all. 
PS all the puppies and dogs look super - hope Flo is just as beautiful!!


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## caradunne

They are all beautiful these cockapoos and Flo will be beautiful because she is your's and you love her (bit like babies really) xx


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## embee

caradunne said:


> They are all beautiful these cockapoos and Flo will be beautiful because she is your's and you love her (bit like babies really) xx


Really weird - keep catching sight of the name Flo in posts and think it's about my Flo  Will be even more confusing when 'little Flo' grows up as they are both apricot and will look similar. I'll have to start referring to my Flo as 'big Flo'


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## embee

caradunne said:


> They are all beautiful these cockapoos and Flo will be beautiful because she is your's and you love her (bit like babies really) xx


Really weird - keep catching sight of the name Flo in posts and think it's about my Flo  Will be even more confusing when 'little Flo' grows up as they are both apricot and will look similar. I'll have to start referring to my Flo as 'big Flo'.

Wendy - if you want to see what 'big Flo' looked like when she was little look here http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd390/flothecockapoo/


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## caradunne

BF and Flo junior!


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## lady amanda

LOL! I know what you mean, There is now a little Lady on here and when I see a post with Lady I think it is my lady...lol


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## caradunne

Big Lady, Old Lady, maybe Veteran Lady, lady Senior? Xx


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## wendy diane

Now this is just getting silly!!!
Expecting some new photos of Little Flo later!!! I can't wait - she will look so grown up a whole 3 weeks and 2 days old now!!!! Will attempt to upload photos to the gallery! 
Big Flo was adorable!! Oh it's making me so excited!!!! Will have to buy another toy!!!
Love to Big Flo and Lady from Wendy and little Flo!!


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## lady amanda

awww little Flo!!! Hello from Lady too....humnh not sure what we can call her...she is still only 8 months and Old Lady just sounds mean! lol


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## wilfiboy

Oooo 3 weeks she'll have changed, how exciting Wendy x


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## embee

wendy diane said:


> Expecting some new photos of Little Flo later!!! I can't wait - she will look so grown up a whole 3 weeks and 2 days old now!!


Oh I didn't quite register that you didn't have little Flo yet. Look forward to the pics and if she is like my big Flo she will bring you masses of love and fun!


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## wendy diane

No photos yet of Little Flo!!! I know Lucy (the breeder) is really busy but........ !
By the way did 'Not so Old Lady and Flo have a crate? Our next decision to make! Lots of advice please. Off to by toy now! Think I will hunt for a kong!
Wendy and Little Flo xx


----------



## lady amanda

wendy diane said:


> No photos yet of Little Flo!!! I know Lucy (the breeder) is really busy but........ !
> By the way did 'Not so Old Lady and Flo have a crate? Our next decision to make! Lots of advice please. Off to by toy now! Think I will hunt for a kong!
> Wendy and Little Flo xx


LOL Not so old Lady has had a crate since Day 1 we bought it for her on our way home with her. it is a 30" plastic one like the kind for the plane....she seems to like it! and it helps with potty training!


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## wendy diane

Seems to be the way to go! I've found some on line at various prices. Where did yours come from? So 30 inches would be okay size for Little Flo? Do you put pup in crate for bedtime and when you leave her? Questions, questions! being a prospective cockapoo mum is such a responsibility!!
Still no photos so have emailed breeder with subtle nag! She will be glad when we bring Flo home!! We are going to visit in a week or so so guess I shouldn't be too greedy!!
Wendy x


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## lady amanda

I got mine just from a pet store, I am in Canada so I won't be of help as to where to shop. At night I put her in the crate with a large stuffed animal to take up some of the room as she was so small and they feel better in smaller spaces...then when we go out she goes in the crate as well. i have a blanket and a towel in there for padding...there are beds for the insides too.


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## wendy diane

Thanks Amanda yes Canada a little too far from South Wales!! Will search out a 'big' soft toy for Flo. She will seem really little in such a big crate!! I've just realised this supposed to be all about barf!! I'm losing the thread!!!!
Wendy x


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## DeKneez

Sarette said:


> I'm also making notes lol!


Lol i've not made any notes but have spent ages looking at the website for natural instinct and totting up the cost - looks good for cats too


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## embee

Just checked Flo's teeth. The vet noticed that she had started to get tartar building up on some teeth at her 1.5 year checkup (despite me sprinkling Plaque Off on her kibble each day). Pleased to report that the tartar build up has almost gone since starting NI and giving raw bones without any brushing involved.

At her checkup her weight was 11.3kg. the vet said she shouldn't put on anymore and I should aim to keep her at 11kg. Since starting on NI a few weeks ago feeding 200g a day her weight is now 10.7kg.

So all in all very happy I made the switch.


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## lady amanda

That's great! now if they made something in human form so I could drop weight quick it would be perfect lol


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## caradunne

lady amanda said:


> That's great! now if they made something in human form so I could drop weight quick it would be perfect lol


Leave out the raw meat and bone, prepare minced veg with a little seaweed and fish oil twice a day and that should do the trick - but remember bits of raw fish or dried liver for training treats, no ice cream or chocolate xx


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## lady amanda

caradunne said:


> Leave out the raw meat and bone, prepare minced veg with a little seaweed and fish oil twice a day and that should do the trick - but remember bits of raw fish or dried liver for training treats, no ice cream or chocolate xx


got it! I'll let you know how I make out.


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## Jukee Doodles

caradunne said:


> Leave out the raw meat and bone, prepare minced veg with a little seaweed and fish oil twice a day and that should do the trick - but remember bits of raw fish or dried liver for training treats, no ice cream or chocolate xx


:huh::huh:


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## Mrs Stevo

I've BARF'ed my cats. They love it and will definitely go NI for Holly until I feel able to provide BARF alone for her. So scared of getting it wrong. all I need now is the girl herself. Although when ever I am on the phone to the breeder it is always Holly getting into trouble


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## Salfordnurse

Well I've decided to take the plunge, after reading about what goes into (or better yet what doesn't go into) the kibble that poppy has been on, I've decide to try her on Natural Instincts. Just need to clear room in the freezer for it and then place my order!!!


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## Jukee Doodles

I just feed the 2 10week old puppies we have here (waiting to be collected) - they were still asleep so I was as quiet as possible as not to disturb them. Orijen kibble in the bowl. I then went to check on all the other pups - when I returned to have another sneaky peek to find bowl empty and puppies still soundo !!!!............odd ???? until I saw the answer !!!...........our cats have only gone BARF !!!!!!!!!

Stephen xx


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## Sarette

Brilliant!!


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## embee

Salfordnurse said:


> Well I've decided to take the plunge, after reading about what goes into (or better yet what doesn't go into) the kibble that poppy has been on, I've decide to try her on Natural Instincts. Just need to clear room in the freezer for it and then place my order!!!


If you place your first order by phone and give Dylansmums name (if you PM her she'll tell you her name) she'll £5 off her next order and you'll get £5 off your first order through the friend 2 friend offer

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/pages/Friend-2-Friend-Offer.html


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## wilfiboy

Mable is taking this Barf lark a little too seriously ... whilst running up and down and up and down a lovely fern covered valley she came back with a dead baby rabbit ...... I was so glad she came to me and dropped it, really did nt want to have to take it off her, although once she'd dropped it it looked "fresh" poor little thing. So glad she did nt eat it


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## ali-s.j.

wow, that was fascinating - will have to switch my Cocker and my Siamese cat on to NI before Lottie arrives I think! I am very relieved that she's a Jukee Doodle puppy, and I'll have lots of help through the maze of puppy-parenthood ....


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## kendal

wilfiboy said:


> Mable is taking this Barf lark a little too seriously ... whilst running up and down and up and down a lovely fern covered valley she came back with a dead baby rabbit ...... I was so glad she came to me and dropped it, really did nt want to have to take it off her, although once she'd dropped it it looked "fresh" poor little thing. So glad she did nt eat it


Delta found a dead vole the other day bust was roling in it, this is the fist time my lot have found something dead to role it, anyway when i told her to move she picked it upp and braught it wither her so she could role on it further away from me. 

dogs are very odd


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## Jukee Doodles

kendal said:


> Delta found a dead vole the other day bust was roling in it, this is the fist time my lot have found something dead to role it, anyway when i told her to move she picked it upp and braught it wither her so she could role on it further away from me.
> 
> dogs are very odd


Why do they always look sooooo pleased with themselves when the have something dead and smelly to roll in??

J xx


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## wilfiboy

This poor rabbit mustnt have been dead long so had nt started to decompose... it looked like a cuddly toy.. Wilf always rolls in the lovely smelly ones x


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## caradunne

A couple of times Izzy has found decapitated black birds in the garden dropped by the swooping sparrow hawks - fortunately she sniffs and leaves - not really a wild girl at heart, a bit of a poodle really! xx


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## wilfiboy

caradunne said:


> A couple of times Izzy has found decapitated black birds in the garden dropped by the swooping sparrow hawks - fortunately she sniffs and leaves - not really a wild girl at heart, a bit of a poodle really! xx


Izzy is too beautiful to anything so disgusting


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## caradunne

Forgot to tell the chicken wing story! Against all my personal hates I decided to give her a couple of chicken wings for supper. She looked at them, sniffed and walked away. I tried various attempts and left her for a while. In the end I took the skin off and fed her bits by hand, then she got the idea and took them off for a munch. Don't really like the idea of it though - I love the NI it just looks like dog food with no smell. xx


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## caradunne

Ahh thank you Karen, I think she is pretty, but we always think our children are the prettiest! xx


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## kendal

caradunne said:


> Forgot to tell the chicken wing story! Against all my personal hates I decided to give her a couple of chicken wings for supper. She looked at them, sniffed and walked away. I tried various attempts and left her for a while. In the end I took the skin off and fed her bits by hand, then she got the idea and took them off for a munch. Don't really like the idea of it though - I love the NI it just looks like dog food with no smell. xx


oh Gypsy was and still can be a night mauir with chiken wings, i used to have to strip the meat back to reveal the bone. now she is better but wont touch them if ther arent frozen.


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## kendal

caradunne said:


> A couple of times Izzy has found decapitated black birds in the garden dropped by the swooping sparrow hawks - fortunately she sniffs and leaves - not really a wild girl at heart, a bit of a poodle really! xx


don't forget, poodles are French watter dogs, they were used for flushing and retrieving birds lol


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## wilfiboy

Oh Cara the things you have to do lol... did you say you were a vegetarian? Fussy Izzy and Gypsy, they'd both like feeding really...if you dont mind


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## caradunne

Not a veggie just squeamish - meat has to come in supermarket packets. In my hippy hitch hiking days (many moons ago) I stayed in a Syrian village and the meat for the butchers arrived on it's own four legs and was tied up overnight prior to slaughter, the villagers queued up the next day to buy, I was veggie that week!

Kendal Izzy needs telling that she is a water dog, she won't go in the river. She did run into the sea but came out when she realised it was wet! Xx


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## Mogdog

caradunne said:


> Kendal Izzy needs telling that she is a water dog, she won't go in the river. She did run into the sea but came out when she realised it was wet! Xx


Maisie is just like this too. Dips one paw into the sea then makes a hasty retreat!!! She doesn't seem to have inherited the water dog gene!!


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## Dylansmum

caradunne said:


> Forgot to tell the chicken wing story! Against all my personal hates I decided to give her a couple of chicken wings for supper. She looked at them, sniffed and walked away. I tried various attempts and left her for a while. In the end I took the skin off and fed her bits by hand, then she got the idea and took them off for a munch. Don't really like the idea of it though - I love the NI it just looks like dog food with no smell. xx


Dylan isn't too keen on chicken wings either, even though he loves bones.


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## wilfiboy

Hi Helen nice to see you're back hope you had a good break. Laughed about the water antics lol mine dont mind streams etc but not fussed about swimming. Think I would have been veggie then as well


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## weez74

Sorry to start up the world's longest thread again (185 posts now! It shows how much we care about our dogs' food), but I have a question about NI. How does it work if you put your dog into kennels for a bit? Will they feed NI? I think that if I put Rosie on it, it will be very difficult to have any kind of back up as a change in her food sets off her tummy upsets.

I was just about to get the phone details and give them a ring, when I thought up that question!


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## caradunne

Hi Louise, I was also very concerned about this as the kennels Izzy goes to for socialisation use their own food. Izzy had to stay for two nights this weekend and I was anticipating a problem over the food. I asked the owner who just said, fine I will keep it in the fridge! I cut up four 100 gram pieces, put them into a tupperware and gave them to her when I left Izzy. So no problem. I have to say I am still very pleased with this food, Izzy's eyes are definately less runny and her ears less smelly - haven't had any tummy trouble yet and her poos are amazing, they just don't smell anymore! She used to be very loose all the time and now I can pick them up easily (nice)!!!


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## embee

The kennels I use are happy to feed whatever food is provided. Ni can be kept in the fridge for up to 5 days. If they are then longer than that then you can partially defrost a pack, cut (saw??) it into 100g portions then it can be defrosted and served as required. Most kennels will have both fridges and freezers to store dogs food.

If a kennel was insisting on only providing their own type of food I don't think I would use them as they should know that sudden changes to a dogs food can cause stomach problems and upsets etc.. that combined with the stress if being left in unfamiliar surroundings would be too much for some dogs perhaps.

Kendal - expert kennel person - can probably also advise.


----------



## kendal

the kennels i work at suply most of the main brands tin and dry, when my girls have been in i normaly work it out so i feed them before they go in and i will feed them the day they come out, that way i can give them less food to store (the longest they ahe been in since on raw has been like a weekend, so i normaly only need to leave one days worth of food) 


we have dogs come in with some strange food, some get cornflakes or crunchy nut cearial for brakefast, others come in the aples or carrots, hotdogs, tind fish. 

if a dog isnt eating them we will play about with different foods till we find something that works, even if it means boiling up rice and getting some chiken in for them. we always have thinks like cooked ham in the frige to mix in with the dogs food etc. we have a day border who comes in with a dog food that looks just like rabit food. but we know it is a dog food as we now buy it in for him. we once had a dog come in with chopped up mars bar to hide its medication in. 

i think kenels should cater for the dogs needs not what is cheep or convenient for the kennels, as they will normaly buy a cheep food to feed all the dogs. we always ask owners what food they are on (its amazing howmany dont remember till you show them a packet they recognize) if we dont have it we say we can get it in for the time the dog is in or they can bring it themselve. none of this afects the price of kenneling.


we have two GSDs who are fed raw at home but are fed kibble in the kennels and they are fine


----------



## weez74

Thanks guys. Rosie is booked in to be neutered next Wednesday (!) so I think I will wait until after she has recovered from that and then I will take the plunge. I'm pretty sure I won't regret it in relation to Rosie and her diet (Izzy's history sounds pretty similar), but I am just concerned as to how I will work it out practically, not being a very organised person.


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## embee

Thought it might be useful to let anyone considering NI see what it looks like.

I ummed and arred for a while before switching thinking it would look really 'grisly' but it is just ground meat and veg. The best thing is that it has no smell at all. I'd always been adamant that Flo would have kibble and not wet food as the smell of wet dog food made my stomach churn but NI has no smell at all.

This is a 100g meal


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## embee

Just got a 40kg NI delivery - lot of food!!! Just in case anyone is measuring up a freezer drawer and thinking about switching they have changed the packaging. They now supply in a white resealable box (a bit like a mini ice cream box) which for me is much better as the polystyrene tray with clear film lid couldn't be resealed up to store in the fridge. The new box dimension is 9cmw x 12cml x 8cmh


----------



## Sarette

Oh that new style pack looks great! Thanks for the photo, that's really helpful. We have an American style fridge freezer indoors, which is big, but my hubby has a strange addiction to ice cream and lollies so they take up some of the room in there! Also as baby is 6.5 months, there's pots of his frozen mush in there also. We have a small 3 drawer freezer out in the garage for overflow (I did ask for a medium size chest freezer but he never listens...) which we do use but is never full... So I am wondering if the NI will fit in there, or should I get another small freezer.... hmm...


----------



## MillieDog

Sarette said:


> Oh that new style pack looks great! Thanks for the photo, that's really helpful. We have an American style fridge freezer indoors, which is big, but my hubby has a strange addiction to ice cream and lollies so they take up some of the room in there! Also as baby is 6.5 months, there's pots of his frozen mush in there also. We have a small 3 drawer freezer out in the garage for overflow (I did ask for a medium size chest freezer but he never listens...) which we do use but is never full... So I am wondering if the NI will fit in there, or should I get another small freezer.... hmm...


I can get 6 weeks worth of food in one drawer, which is 600mm wide, same as a standard width fridge/freezer. I guess it depends how much you want to buy at a time. I bought 7 x 1kg to try NI and I guess I would have been able to fit 8 comfortably into one drawer.


----------



## embee

I have a small chest freezer (just a lift up lid with a big empty space inside) which is about the same size as a normal under the counter fridge and it easily took 40 x 1kg boxes of NI with room left over for a couple of bags of bones. Definatly worth watching out for their offers and going for 40kg (with free postage) if you have a seperate 'dog' freezer - mines in the garage.


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## wilfiboy

I like those containers better easier to re use and I would imagine store... how many baked beans do you give Flo


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## Kitty4

Hi,
I have 2 westies and rosie, our cockapoo puupy who weve had for a week. The westies are on a barf diet, which they love and no problems. Id like to get rosie onto barf, and mixed a little chicken mince in with her royal canin. Rosie loves the mince as well. Problem is ive noticed her poo is on the runny side. Should i just stick to the royal canin, which the breeder had her on, for a few more weeks, or will her tummy sort itself out when use to the barf?


----------



## embee

Kitty4 said:


> Hi,
> I have 2 westies and rosie, our cockapoo puupy who weve had for a week. The westies are on a barf diet, which they love and no problems. Id like to get rosie onto barf, and mixed a little chicken mince in with her royal canin. Rosie loves the mince as well. Problem is ive noticed her poo is on the runny side. Should i just stick to the royal canin, which the breeder had her on, for a few more weeks, or will her tummy sort itself out when use to the barf?


Mixing BARF (chicken mince) with kibble is best avoided as raw is digested differently and at a different rate to processed foods like kibble which may be causing stomach upset. You should either switch straight over to BARF or give BARF at one meal and kibble at another. If you already feeding BARF to your other dogs I would be inclined just to switch puppy straight over. What BARF diet are you giving the Westies?


----------



## Kitty4

Hi, i get the food for the westies from raw to go. They have a mixture of chicken, lamb, duck, turkey minces, as wwell as chicken wings and lamb bones. I also add carrot, cabbage, and fruit. They love it! .

Because of rosies ruuny poos, my husband said just to give her the royal canin. Problem is rosie loves the raw mince and reluctantly eats just plain biscuits. But i'll try what youve suggested and and give one meal royal canin and the other mince, and see how she goes. Can you suggest anything that i should add to the raw mince, just to make sure she gets all the correct nutrients etc as shes a puppy?

Thanks alot for your advice


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## embee

Kitty4 said:


> Hi, i get the food for the westies from raw to go. They have a mixture of chicken, lamb, duck, turkey minces, as wwell as chicken wings and lamb bones. I also add carrot, cabbage, and fruit. They love it! .
> 
> Because of rosies ruuny poos, my husband said just to give her the royal canin. Problem is rosie loves the raw mince and reluctantly eats just plain biscuits. But i'll try what youve suggested and and give one meal royal canin and the other mince, and see how she goes. Can you suggest anything that i should add to the raw mince, just to make sure she gets all the correct nutrients etc as shes a puppy?
> 
> Thanks alot for your advice


I would suggest that you switch puppy over to raw only and use a complete, balanced raw food like Natural Instinct. Doesn't need to be puppy food but avoid the working mixes which have extra Vit C. My 4 month puppy is on chicken and turkey http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/Adult/ Also see my blog http://www.mydogslife.co.uk/2011/11/14/flo-and-remy-raw-feeding/ and this link http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html


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## Kitty4

Hi embee,
Thanks for the advice. Ive switched rosie onto the Raw To Go food (have just had a months order delivered - freezer is full to the brim, and my husband wants to get the christmas goose in there..lol). Her poos are still on the runny side, i suppose it will take a couple of days for her system to adjust, other than that shes fine. Thanks again


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## Janev1000

Oh if only Biscuit would still hoover up his NI!! It is so frustrating as it really is the only food I want to feed him but he just goes mad for any kibble training treats. I bought some Orijen as it looks like the closest dried food to NI. I know if I gave him a meal of this he would hoover it up! However, it just doesn't feel right for me to give him kibble only. He really loves chicken wings but I worry that he is not swallowing these properly. The other day he brought a whole one up after running in the park. I have never seen any chalkiness to his poo either so am just slightly worried that he has a pile of wing bones sitting in his stomach undigested. I am sure he would eat a home-made raw diet but I really want him to have NI but he'll only eat it with a bit of sardine/cheese/carrot or celery added. So I am doing that for now as I feel that's better than switching over to a totally dry diet. I also give him recreational bones and a stag bar to chew on.


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## Sezra

Kitty4 said:


> Hi embee,
> Thanks for the advice. Ive switched rosie onto the Raw To Go food (have just had a months order delivered - freezer is full to the brim, and my husband wants to get the christmas goose in there..lol). Her poos are still on the runny side, i suppose it will take a couple of days for her system to adjust, other than that shes fine. Thanks again


Mandy is right that Natural Instinct is a complete raw food but Raw to Go is fine. It lacks the extras like fish oil (unless you feed the tripe and oily fish) and the added vitamins but a dog doesn't necessarily need these just like we don't necessarily need vitamin tablets. You are already adding fruit and veg so you are not gaining anything by switching. It already contains the correct 80:10:10 ratio of muscle: bone: offal so is not lacking. Not all raw feeders feed veg, I don't as Daisy wont eat it although I am still trying to sneak it in there! You could also try the tripe mixes, green tripe is really good for dogs and although it is a bit smelly they adore it! 

When feeding raw you do not have to make sure that every day is completely balanced. As long as it is balanced over a two to three week period the food will be fine. 

I would switch completely to the raw diet and leave off the kibble. I have been feeding Daisy Raw to Go minces combined with necks or chicken wings/carcasses for some time now and she is doing brilliantly on them. She went off NI after an upset tum for a couple of days and then just refused to touch it. I wondered at the time whether it was the fruit and veg in it that had upset her tummy??

I also like the variety available from RawtoGo and the price!


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## Dylansmum

Janev1000 said:


> Oh if only Biscuit would still hoover up his NI!! It is so frustrating as it really is the only food I want to feed him but he just goes mad for any kibble training treats. I bought some Orijen as it looks like the closest dried food to NI. I know if I gave him a meal of this he would hoover it up! However, it just doesn't feel right for me to give him kibble only. He really loves chicken wings but I worry that he is not swallowing these properly. The other day he brought a whole one up after running in the park. I have never seen any chalkiness to his poo either so am just slightly worried that he has a pile of wing bones sitting in his stomach undigested. I am sure he would eat a home-made raw diet but I really want him to have NI but he'll only eat it with a bit of sardine/cheese/carrot or celery added. So I am doing that for now as I feel that's better than switching over to a totally dry diet. I also give him recreational bones and a stag bar to chew on.


I have just bought some pure tripe from NI with my latest order. I'm planning to slightly thaw then cut into small chunks and refreeze to give as an occasional meal. You could always add a little of that to each NI meal. Most dogs love it.


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## Janev1000

Thanks Helen - sounds like a plan! Our garden centre - just a stone's throw from me - stocks some raw food too, so will look at that to see if there is anything like that I can add.


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## Sarette

It's Max's turn to go off his NI, typically I recently placed a big order and stocked the freezer up too  I thought it might be that he was bored of the puppy food, so tried him with the adult chicken, and now the turkey, but he just stands there when I put it down for him and I have to really work hard to get him to eat it. It's soooo frustrating!!


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## Janev1000

Bought some Naure's Menu today and tried the chicken & fish. He hoovered it up! I am going to give a mix of this together with the NI I still have. I also bought some Nature's Menu chicken & trip (yuk!) to mix a tiny bit in with the NI for aroma! He seemed to like the tiny bit I gave him to try. I have not found NI to give firm enough poos and he has been scooting around loads today, despite the vet saying his glands were fine last week. I feel the rice in the Nature's Menu may help with this as he may need a bit of carbohydrate to help with this.


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## Janev1000

Meant to say I will give the Nature's Menu and NI meals at different times but will still need to mix a tiny bit of tripe into the NI to make it work. I will continue to give wings and bones too.


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## mandy1

hi all 
i have loved listening to all that has been said on this thread about feeding the BARF way,
i will keep reading all i can on this subject so when we do get our cockapoo i will be able to do the raw side or the kibble.
thank you all for your tales of BARF
mandy


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