# OMG! How horrendous and sad.



## PipE (Aug 4, 2011)

Just wondered if you had all seen the terrible item on the news about little Charlie the Cockapoo.
I'm rubbish at techno things so don't know how to post a link but if you're on Facebook there's a group called 'Justice for Charlie' on there.
He was a beautiful little 13 week old puppy who was mauled to death by a Staffie recently.
I can't even begin to imagine how his owners must be feeling and my heart goes out to them.
:cry2::cry2:

Pip X


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes I have just seen this too, it is very very sad and makes me so angry. That is one dangerous dog and something should be done about its owner 

Or should I say a dog in dangerous, stupid hands!!!!


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## Dee123 (Aug 20, 2011)

How sad. Owners must be devastated. I have recently been forgetting that some dogs can hurt a pup even with owner nearby. One should always look out for signs of aggression in other dogs approaching a pup.


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## Donnag (Jul 5, 2011)

That's shocking, Wynny plays with lots of staffs but it does make you weary. We are just on our way out makes me think twice about letting her off the lead.


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## Dylansmum (Oct 29, 2010)

When Dylan was 4 months old he was badly attacked by a staffie who was on a lead. As we walked past he lunged for Dylan and we couldn't get his jaws open to get Dylan out. It took 3 of us several minutes to get him out and we thought he'd be seriously mauled or dead, but fortunately he was hardly injured - just bruising and hair loss on his face. It was a very lucky escape. I've been wary of Staffs ever since.


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## Turi (Jun 28, 2011)

Oh that is just awful... poor puppy, poor owners


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## Pollypiglet (Oct 22, 2011)

This is the very reason why I wish people would respect others and not alow their dogs just to rush up with the explanation thet their dog is "only playing". Ihave said before one of my terriers was picked up in the jaws of an alsation and shaken in an attempt to break her back, it is a terrifying experience luckily she survived with 35 stitches and two days in hospital. It cost the owner who fortunately I knew £250 in vets bills this was six years ago. Understandably when the vet nurse at Hatties puppy party said let them all off the lead (1st party non of them had ever met) I was not happy.


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## Rufini (Sep 9, 2011)

Poor Charlie


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## Sarette (Mar 21, 2011)

So very sad


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## PipE (Aug 4, 2011)

It would be great if lots of people on here could add their support to the Facebook campaign.
As usual in these cases it's the owner who should be punished. he should not be allowed to get away with it.

X


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

PipE said:


> It would be great if lots of people on here could add their support to the Facebook campaign.
> As usual in these cases it's the owner who should be punished. he should not be allowed to get away with it.
> 
> X


.....Done


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Poor puppy, that is awful, I can't even imagine how I would feel if that was Daisy. 

It makes me mad that people with aggressive dogs still let them off the lead like this. My neighbour's dog is fine with people but shows aggression towards other dogs. I was out a couple of weeks ago and met them walking. Her dog was off the lead and DFaisy was being walked by Annabel. Suddenly the other dog just went for Daisy and had her pinned down. She was yelping, the owner couldn't get to her dog..it was awful. I just grabbed Daisy's lead off Annabel and kind of lifted her up and turned away from the other dog giving the owner a chance to get hold of her dog. It all seemed to happen so quickly! Daisy was fine but whilst the owner apologised Daisy hid behind my legs and wouldn't come out. We carried on our walk and met other dogs and she was fine but I was fuming! Imagine if Annabel had been out on her own with Daisy. My neighbours dog is known to have issues so it angers me that they still walk her off lead like this.  So irresponsible...


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## Laura(L)Izzie (Sep 9, 2011)

It's absoultely awful  He wouldn't have walked away from me I can tell you for a fact! The owner sounds like he didn't even care or try! It's disgusting, the poor little pup 

It must have been truly devastating for the owners & something needs to be done! That dog should not be allowed to leave the house without a muzzle on it ever again!


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## glitzydebs (Jun 10, 2011)

Oh how sad
I saw a staffie maul a beautiful old sheep dog who was just minding his own business. My sister and I managed to pull him off only after I threw a cardigan over it's eyes. I will never forget the look of terror on the sheep dog's face. I would have been inconsolable if it had hit Pushca.
Luckily the sheep dog was just stunned but a staffie locks it's jaw on and they rarely let go
I am terrified of them now and always look out for any.
So sad as I'm sure they are lovely dogs


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## Emma (Apr 29, 2011)

I know we all love our cockapoos and what happened was awful that poor dog and it's poor owners. However spare a thought for the staffys. I don't believe you get bad dogs. U get bad irresponsible owners and breeders. I know a few staffys and they are lovely friendly dogs. If cockapoos (heaven forbid) became overbred and owned by such irresponsible owners they could end up in the same state.
Sorry for the rant I just feel its not the breed of dog we should be targeting if u know hat I mean. Emma x


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## Laura(L)Izzie (Sep 9, 2011)

I know it's not always the breed, but sometimes the way they are bred (using vicious parents) could make the pups like it as well, I think sometimes some people forget that they used to be bred to be meaner dogs & although that isn't the case anymore you will always get bad breeders who will breed any staffy regardless of aggression issues & the outcome would be aggressive pups which owners may or may not try to sort out :/

I know it's ot always the breed, i'm sure there are some lovely staffies around, but there are a lot of these stories as well which makes me think it can be down to more than just the owner, it can be bred into them as well unfortunatley


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## Pollypiglet (Oct 22, 2011)

Unfortunatly it is not a criminal offence for one dog to attack another. May be an offence if owner does not have control but very often these cases just do not get prosecuted as often there is no realistic chance of conviction and it is deemed not to be "in the public interest!!!"


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Sadly the staff has been handed in and destroyed 

This man now has the blood of two dogs on his hands and should have the book thrown at him


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## Emma (Apr 29, 2011)

wellerfeller said:


> Sadly the staff has been handed in and destroyed
> 
> This man now has the blood of two dogs on his hands and should have the book thrown at him


Karen this is exactly the point I was trying to put across! Thank u for putting it so concisely! I also think when talking about staffys people need to bear in mind the sheer number of staffy type dogs in this country therefor more likely to be involved in fights. Also very often owned by people who struggle to look after themselves never mind a dog. 
All this said I wouldn't want a staffy myself and prob if I'm honest mostly because of their negative reputation. 
Emma x


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Emma said:


> Karen this is exactly the point I was trying to put across! Thank u for putting it so concisely! I also think when talking about staffys people need to bear in mind the sheer number of staffy type dogs in this country therefor more likely to be involved in fights. Also very often owned by people who struggle to look after themselves never mind a dog.
> All this said I wouldn't want a staffy myself and prob if I'm honest mostly because of their negative reputation.
> Emma x


I know what you mean. I love staffs and always wanted one before they became the dog of the moment. They are loving, loyal and yes gentle but in the wrong hands can be lethal as can many dogs. I hate these people just being able to get a dog because they can, as you say can't look after themselves let alone raise ahappy socialised dog


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

I dont think bull breeds are any worse for aggression than any other breed, in fact wee terriers are prob the most aggressive but due to the shape of their mouth compared to the bull breeds and their small size they dont do too much damage most of the time.

A lot of breeds nip on and off or do a full mouth bite but let go while the bull breeds when they do bite lock on and do major damage and on occasion kill. A gun by itself isnt dangerous, its when you put it in the hands of an idiot things can go wrong and I think its the same with dogs like these.

Sad for everyone concerned and my thoughts are with the wee cockapoos owners who must be devastated.


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## jaimebpa1 (Nov 8, 2011)

How sad. This is probably a dumb question, but is a staffie a pit bull? I think it must be or at least similar. 

Pit bulls were banned here years ago. Which is so silly because that doesn't solve anything. A study was just released last month that said dog attacks hadn't gone down since the ban. I will say that pit bulls do scare me though! I've known some really sweet ones, but they are scary looking to me and what scares me the most is how strong they are.


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## Salfordnurse (May 4, 2011)

It's so sad what happened, but as many other have said its not always down to the dog, it's sometimes down to the owner. I think there's a sub culture in Britain, and around the world which perceives that to look hard and tough you need to have a snarling vicious dog on the end of a choke chain, a animal that has probably never had a days affection in its life, and has been treated so badly that the vicious behaviour has become second nature to it. All the animal is to them is a status symbol its not a pet, its not a member of their family, it's just something to show off with. Like the spoilt child at Christmas, who plays with the latest toy but discards it like yesterday's rubbish when something better comes along. At the moment it seems to be staffies which are in vogue, though I know many of us will remember we had similar periods where it was Rottweilers which were the dog of choice for these yobs, and before that Dobermans. Maybe we should consider putting the irresponsible owners down instead of the poor dog.

Right that's my rant over!!! Think I'm no soft when it comes to animals


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## Enneirda. (Mar 5, 2010)

Sheilagh, pits do not have locking jaws. Their jaws are the same as any other breed, they just tend to be more driven. 

This link has pictures of many dog breed skulls, as well as info on the myth of the 'locking jaws' http://eternalevolution.hubpages.com/hub/Pit-Bulls-Behind-The-Jaws

Dog Bite Reports:

Dog bite reports are unchanged although fatal attacks by animals always seem to grab headlines. Authorities say the numbers of such incidents are not rising, according to a new study soon to be published in the The Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association in conjunction with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The new study of dog bites through 1997 shows that while overall numbers have remained nearly constant, the number of pit bull attacks have declined.

There is an 8 out of 10 chance that a biting dog is male. (Humane Society of the United States.) There is a 6 out of 10 chance that a biting dog has not been neutered. (Humane Society of the United States.) No fatal dog attack involving an altered dog was ever reported.

Although some believe Pit bull mixes and Rottweillers are most likely to kill and seriously maim, fatal attacks since 1975 have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.

Other 'pit bull' myths http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html




jaimebpa1:


Question: What is a 'pit bull'?
Answer: Pit Bull is not an official breed. It's a common term used to describe a certain type of dog. There are actually three breeds of dog that are typically grouped together under the umbrella term of "pit bull" They are:

The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT)
The American Staffordshire Terrier (AmStaff or AST)
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT)

They are essentially the same dogs but have been bred for a different purpose and/or size standard since the mid 1930's. Some are even duel registered. Pete the Pup from "The little Rascals" was among the first APBTs to be registered with the AKC as an Amstaff.

Also jaimebpa1, I think the reason your city still has the same amount of bites a year is because once you take away a druggies pit, they'll get a rott. Or a Dobe. Or a Cane Corso. Or a Dogo. Stupid people that just want a guard dog out back, or want one for their sick egos, will find one. If you look back, they used to pick dobermans recently in the past. Now their goal is a 'pit bull' (meaning any bully breed really) type dog. And if we take away their pitbulls, they'll find another breed. 

As long as the higher ups target the outward problem and leave the roots, this problem will never be fixed. We must attack the people that believe aggressive dogs are an ego boost, not the dogs themselves. I believe the 'blame the dead, not the breed.'

I truly feel for the family of that beautiful pup. I have never gone through anything like that, and I hope I never do.  I think I would of throttled that man. But I still pity that staffie as well, at least to some extent. Bad breeding and no training most likely created that animal... and now it's dead, and its owner is free. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a few more at home, maybe even a litter on the ground out back.

This person and I share the same take on the pit bull problem: http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/legislation.php


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## Emma (Apr 29, 2011)

Jamiebpa1 pit bulls are banned in the uk too, all this has done has driven them underground and made them more expensive and desirable to these very undesirable owners! They are kept here now solely by people who do so illegally and who train them to fight! As pitbulls and staffys have a similar look a lot of staffys have got some pitbull in them. Staffys are shorter and slightly different build to a pitbull. Staffys are reported to be great with children not so good with other animals, they are the 5th most popular dog in the uk, but unfortunately the kennels are full of them. Emma x


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## greenflower (Sep 7, 2011)

my brothers staff Kipper passed away in the summer after 15 years of rocking everyone he met. he touched so many peoples lives with his comedy and when needed his gentle approach to all people and dogs. he was the same age as maizie my daugter so they were pups together and as he grew up, and she remained young he tolerated her still wanting to play with him. he often walked around my parents house covered in hello kitty stickers. when he died my brother sent out the amazing text message which i could only read in stages as each sentence made me emplode with grief. the message he sent went to hundreds of people who spent time with Kipper and at that moment everyone felt sadness for a dog they knew really well but wasnt theirs. those people all had a postive experience of an seeing the outcome of a man and his staffy sharing their lives together.

it was Kipper and Ben that inspired me to get a dog. it makes me laugh because as im writing this i have sweaty eyes and RocketDog couldn't be more on my face and in the way if he tried. making his presence known and offering his affection....you cant buy that....well you can......£850 worth.


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

Enneirda I used the wrong word. By lock I meant that once the dog had bitten it was difficult to get them to release. I didnt mean that the dog couldnt release but that it was determined not to. From personal experience doing 10 years behaviour work with aggressive dogs I have been on the end of a bite like that by a Brittish bulldog and it took a high amount of distraction to get the dog to release my arm. I was wearing several layers of clothing and a thick jacket so instead of skin tears I was left with a good bit of crush bruising.

Any bites I have had from non bull breeds tend to be front mouth nips that do little damage. Not that I was bitten often thank goodness.

The breeds I saw at the club that were most aggressive were small terriers especially westies, cairns and jack russells. Most aggressive wee dog I saw was a chihuahua. Most of their owners didnt want to follow behavioural advice to sort the problem as the dogs were easy to manage and control due to their size so for most of them it was too much effort. These dogs if they did bite did little damage. The main breeds of dog I saw for behaviourals due to aggression were collies and GSDs. I never did have a staffie come through with an aggression problem.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24388086/Fatal-Dog-Attacks-Europe-2006-2009

shows it is the large breeds especially bull breeds that when they do bite it can be fatal. I believe these breeds bite less than a lot of others its just when they do it can go so wrong. Oh and the attack that included a Jack russel was quite possibly started by it but on its own it wouldnt have killed.

The dogs themselves arent the problem its the hands they are in and how they are treated and controlled. Dogs that have the potential to do serious damage should only be owned by those that have the experience to ensure they are trained and treated well. Not sure how that can be achieved in the real world tho......


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## lola24 (Aug 14, 2011)

sheilagh, after 10 years in vet practice i have to agree that i would be much more wary of terriers/collies/gsd's then i would a staffie. i think i could count on one hand the amount of people- agressive staffies i have met over the years. Unfortunately, the majority are dog agressive and in the wrong hands, things like this happen. I really feel for the poor family and hope that the staffy owner gets what he deserves- i ofetn feel that this happens, dog is destroyed and they think the problem is taken care of


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## Enneirda. (Mar 5, 2010)

Sorry to explain so much then Sheilagh. You obviously are quite dog smart.  I've only been into dogs for about 4-5 years lol. Your 10 years totally trumped me. Thanks for the link, was very fascinating!


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

Still got tons and tons to learn tho Enneirda and Im enjoying this group as its challenging some of the things that I was taught a few years back and making me research things again.

I can learn something from an owner that has had dogs for a month as well as folk that have 40 years experience. Thats what I love about it.


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## Enneirda. (Mar 5, 2010)

Very true. Dog knowledge is never fully learned, and there is no age that someone is an expert lol. But I still feel dumb when I explain something the person knows all about. :XD: 

I wish we had a way to know more about each others dog experience with a glance. I think that the 'Cockapoo Experience Level' 'What type of experience do you have with cockapoos?' should be about the years we've owned dogs, not if we are breeders or owners or the such. It would be more informative by far. I am much deeper then the vague title of 'cockapoo owner', yet that's all anyone knows unless they ask.


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

Still difficult to judge what experience someone has had. Someone could have owned a dog all their life and be in their 60s but never done anything other than feed walk and love it so not know more than their own dogs have taught them. Then you have someone like Turi who (I think) is getting her first but has spent a lot of time learning about the breed and how to get the best start. Although lacking practical experience she has a lot of knowledge. I could learn different things from each. The first may be a whizz at clipping nails but know nothing about the health problems in their breed or training.

Im not up on nutrition and have done just a tiny bit of grooming with a friends poodles so watch with interest the threads on them as I can learn a lot that way.

One of the things I think new folk find difficult is that everyone has their own experience and own ideas so they get 6 folk all giving differing advice. Where do they start! 

There is another group Im a member of which has a behaviourist on it and I have a different approach to her so I dont post there on behaviour as I dont want to confuse owners by giving conflicting advice. When I first did behaviour I was very hands off and total positives but then I realised I had quite a few clients that didnt have all the time on earth to work through a behaviour programme and click only the postives and in the early days I failed some dogs thats owners just wanted a quick fix or to dump or pts the dog. 

After a couple of years I dropped my membership of the APDT as I realised to give my best to the dogs I had to really assess the owners and what work they were willing to do and make a programme that would suit them and I needed all the tools in the behaviour toolbox not just the postives. So for some dogs that was a band aid approach of not curing the behaviour but managing it or avoiding it. For some it including using negatives (dog training discs, use of headcollars to control barking and lunging, on a few dogs really tough dogs that everything else had failed on an air jet collar). Some dogs you could wait forever to get that good behaviour to reward and you needed a negative to get their attention and then get them to do something you could reward. The owner then quickly got to see that there was an end in sight to it. 

In my area people only use a behaviourist if they are at their wits end, its a working class area and by the time I saw dogs they were usually well into the habit of whatever the problem was and it needed sorted quick or the dog was going to be gone one way or the other. Many people that was the first thing they said on the phone to me was " Im ready to get rid of the dog unless it stops .........)

So I have worked my way through different styles. Initially taught hands on yank and jerk type training, moved to motivational training then found clicker training and went totally hands off postives only for a few years before moving back to what I think is a more balanced approach of starting with postives and using them for training but using negatives if they are failing and for a short a time as possible to let me get back to using positives again. I will make it clear that when using negatives I have never used hitting or kicking a dog or an electric collar and never will.


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## greenflower (Sep 7, 2011)

wow sheilagh that was a really interesting post. reading posts like this helps me to get to know who to stalk when i want to know how to change something or make it better. i have found it beneficial reading lots of conflicting advice too on here because i can then go away and think which approach may suit my dog. there was a really interesting thread on how to manage taking food away from your dog. i ended up sitting near RocketDog when he was eating and putting food into his bowl. 
Lucy X


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

Aye, there are many different ways to skin a cat and everyone has to learn their own method.

Mine on training and behaviour is a mix of all the different folk I have read, the ones I have been on courses with and a lot that I learnt on my feet taught to me by many different dogs.

Enjoy learning


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