# The genetics of Red



## edenorchards (Sep 3, 2013)

Since there was the whole "red rage" thread I thought I'd just post something that might help to quell the fears that some people might have regarding their beautiful red companions.
First off I own a red dog and he is the best dog I have ever owned.

Ok: dog's coat color is produced via two different types of pigment. There is eumelanin which makes the coat black or brown and there is phaeomelanin; which makes the coat red.

A dog that is recessive red has a genotype of ee on the Extension (or E) locus. A dog that is black (or brown) can be Ee or EE. There is a third possible allele at this locus which covers a mask on the face, but I will keep it simple.

So just because a dog does NOT express a recessive red coat does NOT mean that dog does not carry the gene for recessive red. The "e" gene does not say "this dog produces phaeomelanin" it actually instructs the coat to either make eumelanin (for black or brown) or to make no eumelanin for the hairs.

Furthermore, while the shade of "red" is different than the shade of "tan" found on tan pointed dogs (or dogs with phantom markings, etc) the markings are made by phaeomelanin and not "brown" colored eumelanin. Ever notice you don't see a recessive red dog with phantom points? That is why. Can't see phaeomelanin points on a pure phaeomelanin dog anymore than you can see a black mask on a solid black dog or Irish spotting on a solid white dog.

So a good many dogs produce phaeomelanin and/or carry for the gene to exclude eumelanin production in the coat.

So if "red rage" were a real phenomenon we can rule out phaeomelanin from being the culprit, otherwise most dogs would be affected and it could not be confined to the color "red".

Furthermore the "solid dog only" thing doesn't make any sense. All dogs carry genes on their agouti locus for patterns (sable, tan points, wild type & recessive black)

Some dogs can't express the genes they carry because they carry a dominant K gene that doesn't allow for the expression of agouti genes OR the dog is a recessive red dog and does NOT make eumelanin in the coat-so therefore eumelanin cannot be affected in the pattern the agouti genes dictate.

Genes for white spots can be seen on recessive red dogs the same as black or chocolate dogs because eumelanin is not involved. The solid-ness of a dog's coat cannot be the carrier for a rage-defect at all. There are many dogs that are solid in color.

There are many shades of recessive red. From the darkest red to the lightest red-cream. All have the exact same ee genes. The lighter colors have genes that fade the color. The apricot has the same genes as the deep red-only color dilution or fading or greying genes on top of that. So again, the idea that a dark red carries "rage" being linked to coat color just doesn't make scientific sense to me. If the disorder were a result of a lack of some fading gene then all non dilute or greyed or otherwise faded dogs would be affected regardless of red, brown or black.

Sable dogs also display usually a large amount of phaeomelanin in their coat color as well. If a disorder were to affect red dogs then sable dogs should be affected too.

Furthermore not all colors are easy to identify visually. There is a type of sable known as "clear sable" that looks identical to a recessive red. Also undiluted red dogs look very similar to some shades of liver (brown) in many spaniels and gun dogs. So how do we know these stories of "red rage" are even involving actual recessive red dogs?

If there truly were a gene that was responsible for "rage" in a dog I would expect it to be found on genes that had absolutely nothing to do with the dog's coat color or texture at all. I might be willing to consider it a ***-linked trait (then it would only be expressed in male dogs or only in female dogs) or possibly a trait that is very similar to mental illness in humans. This would more likely be a problem with the endocrine system or even brain formation. 

Saying that red dogs are more likely to be mentally ill is about as ridiculous as saying all blondes are unintelligent (or bimbos) or that red-heads are more prone to being psychopathic. It is absurd to make any kind of connection like this. But these sort of things definitely happen. They tend to come about when there is a real problem that is very poorly understood.

I'd guess that any real "rage" problems occur as a result of poor breeding practices. It could be due to deafness or blindness (we all know that PRA causes eventual blindness). A dog that is hearing or vision impaired is way more likely to startle easily and potentially lash out aggressively due to fear. Perhaps some form of epilepsy is the case although I don't see how since epileptic fits render the sufferer unconscious for the most part. People that suffer from epilepsy (all sorts of types) in general cannot remember what occurred during their seizure activity (be it "absence" seizures or mal or petit)
But a dog with epilepsy can most certainly become very frightened and confused and might be more prone to reacting violently to anyone following a scary fit/seizure. 

We do know that there are poor breeding practices out there. Instead of selectively breeding dogs with the best temperaments, health and form greedy breeders will breed any dog that is physically capable of making babies-which can produce dogs with less than ideal temperaments-to put it nicely. Also excessive inbreeding can cause problems as much as excessive out-crossing can. Any breeder that does not carefully select suitable matches will produce bad pups. We know that the sweet and family-loving cocker spaniel had bad breeders mess with the breed and suspicious, nervous, shy and aggressive dogs were bred and muddied up the lines.

I hope no one worries that their sweet dog might one day turn on their children or themselves based on their coat color! 

And I hope that with good forums like this we can work together to answer these kinds of questions so that no one is worried unnecessarily. Many people may have this worry on their minds but not have the confidence to ask the question. So it is definitely good that we dispel the myths and work together to increase awareness of improper breeding practices to limit bad traits from our beloved Cockapoos!!


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## edenorchards (Sep 3, 2013)

Hmmm...Maybe I do not know how to post threads since I don't see my thread 
Being a newbie can sure stink sometimes!!


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## lady amanda (Nov 26, 2010)

edenorchards said:


> Hmmm...Maybe I do not know how to post threads since I don't see my thread
> Being a newbie can sure stink sometimes!!


it posted.


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## sugerlump (Oct 6, 2012)

well you know people that a cocker can be very head strong and very snippy at times..i have had four of them in my life time .and found out if they get a thing for you you can be in trouble, they are a loving dog but you can't do to them what you can do to other dogs .because they will not take it and that is the hunting type ..i don't have any knowledge of the show type ok. but they can be very snippy anf if they don't like you so be it


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## Skyesdog (Jun 7, 2012)

I love your posts, well the bits that I can follow anyway!! Thank you! N x


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## edenorchards (Sep 3, 2013)

Skyesdog said:


> I love your posts, well the bits that I can follow anyway!! Thank you! N x


LOL-I'm sorry if I get too technical and don't make any sense. I really need to learn to make things understandable (and less wordy) I'm bad, I know! 

It is funny because my father and sister are both attorneys and I'm always telling them I have no idea what they are saying because they speak in jargon-then they tell me I do the same thing with medical jargon so I can't complain.


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## Skyesdog (Jun 7, 2012)

No, not at all, you explain it all very clearly, the problem is my brain which struggles to keep up with even the simplest of things these days 😳!! I do find it fascinating though. 

I have been on a break from work to be with my daughters for the last 7 years (planning to return part time next summer once my youngest starts school) and my brain has turned to mush!!! Lord help me when I have to rejoin the corporate world!

N x


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Well yes I confess, although interested I found it was a lot of information! having said that I guess it needed to all be there the fully explain. I was going to ask more about you but had a nosey at your blog and web page, I must admit you dogs look fab and are lucky to have you as an owner. I don't know how you do it all with 4 kids as well!! Have you studies the genetics etc for any high level qualifications or was it all just for your interest and wanting the knowledge for breeding?


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## MillieDog (Jun 1, 2011)

Nice on Annette. I hope we can finally dispel the Red Cocker Rage myth once and for all.
Although technical in parts a very concise explanation .


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