# Hi, new to this site - advice re breeders



## SMM

Hi I am new to the site and am just looking for some advice. We are hoping to get a cockapoo in the near future and I am currently researching breeders. I live in Scotland and like previous posters have mentioned there don't seem to be that many up here. Anyway my question is, is it standard or common practice for breeders to ask that your pup be spayed/neutered at 7 months as part of the signed contract agreement? asking for certification from a vet to proof that you have done this? I have no interest in breeding by the way but part of me does think this should be our decision as it would be our dog? I just wondered if this was common?

thanks


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## lady amanda

Hi there and Welcome!!!

I have heard it being common practice in some places for the breeder to require the spay certificate.
They do this because they want to have control over the lineage.

I have never know anyone who's breeder has requested this...I have just heard of it happening.

Maybe some members from your area of the world will be of better help than me.

I know we did not have to do this.

Welcome and enjoy!


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## SMM

Hi, thanks so much for your quick response. I have been in email contact with a breeder up here and he has stated that we would have to sign contract to neuter/spay at 7 months. Must admit my initial reaction to this was negative but then I began to wonder if maybe this was what happens now and vets are very pro neutering/spaying. Maybe I'm right to be a bit wary - thanks again


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## Sezra

I have not come across this with Cockapoos in the UK before. I think that when you spay should be a personal choice. I chose to wait until after Daisy had her first season as I felt it was an important part of her growth to not interfere with hormones that could effect how she grew and matured. Just as there are health reasons for spaying earlier there are also health related reasons for waiting.

Vets seem to be divided on when to spay/neuter, a bit like owners  Maybe if you had strong feelings about spaying at a later stage of development you could talk to the breeder and explain your reasons.


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## Jukee Doodles

Hi SMM,

I'd personally worry why someone who breeds themselves should want to put a restriction on you from breeding !!???

What makes them worthy and you not ??

Stephen x


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## mandym

I personally think its better to wait for the first season to let them mature a bit first.There are some australian labradoodle breeders spay the pups before they leave which is just plain cruelty.No its not commen practice at all xxx


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## Jukee Doodles

Mandy - The question asked was: "is it standard or common practice for breeders to ask that your pup be spayed/neutered at 7 months as part of the signed contract agreement?" - not "when is best".

S x


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## lady amanda

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi SMM,
> 
> I'd personally worry why someone who breeds themselves should want to put a restriction on you from breeding !!???
> 
> What makes them worthy and you not ??
> 
> Stephen x


I have heard of this in the USA and the reason for the restriction is because of someone making money off the work of that breeder. 



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## Jukee Doodles

In answer to SMM's original question "..is it standard or common practice for breeders to ask that your pup be spayed/neutered at 7 months as part of the signed contract agreement?" - then I'd say No......it does sound a little too much "Pedigree Show World" for my own liking - as only they would have this desire to "protect" their precious blood-lines (that may well have been selectively bred over generations - for both good and bad).

"Cockapoo" is not Show-World nor Pedigree so I do not know why - nor understand - why anyone would ultimately want to / demand / or feel the need to - implicate a "breeding restriction".

Stephen x


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## lady amanda

Well it is common in some circles and some places. I can't speak for breeders practices in her area. Possibly a member in her area could educate us on the commonality of neuter/spay contracts. Humane societies in Canada often have a rule similar that when you get a puppy from them. You leave a spay and neuter deposit that you get back when you have your dog spayed or neutered

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## Mogdog

I think the age of spay should be the personal choice of the owner ... I also prefer to spay after the first season.

Sue x


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## DB1

I would not have signed a contract like that, I would want it to be my choice, although I think most rescue centre's over here have dogs neutered when re-homing, i'm not sure if they do contracts when homing puppies, I think they may well do. I think the opinion there is they would rather no more puppies were brought into the world when there are so many dogs that need re-homing. However breeder's must have completely different reasons. My breeder just said he hoped if ever I wanted to use Dudley for breeding that I would let him know and go to him for advice, which I would have had no problem with. I am pretty sure I will get Dudley neutered though, I'm seeing so many Cockapoo's now that I worry too many people are breeding them without enough thought.


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## SMM

*Thanks*

Hi everyone

thank you all for your replies and advice. I feel a bit clearer in my head now regarding proceeding with this particular breeder. My gut feeling was that it didn't feel quite right and seemed dictatorial. We would probably be after a male dog and would probably have him neutered but having to sign a contract which removes that choice doesn't sit quite right with me. I totally agree with the comments regarding spaying too. Anyway thanks so much for all the advice, I'll resume the search 

Many thanks.


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## RubyCockapoo

Hi - I wouldn't want to be dictated to either, so glad you feel that way.

We had one of our girls spayed after her first season (she was over a year old) - Ruby, and as a result we had Pepper spayed before her first season - there has been no difference other than Pepper didn't go through a season.

Even different vets at our local practice had different ideas, so it's up to you really.

As someone else mentioned, there are potential risks and benefits of both options!

Good luck with your search

Ian


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## Glendreamcockapoos

Hi,

Again, another interesting thread.

Your probably talking about me. I am in Scotland and place spey/neuter agreements on ALL my puppies sold to non- breeding homes.

I do not feel this to be at all dictatorial and this condition is in place to protect the puppy in the long term. As the majority of the puppies I breed are F1, it then becomes a completely different ball game when it comes to breeding them.

In some instances I have sold puppies to other reputable breeders in the UK and on the continent, where I am happy that they have the knowledge in order to breed on from the lines I have.

Steven implies that it's 'show dog' mentality, it's nothing at all to do with that, it's responsible mentality and my personal preference. I have worked long and hard to establish the lines I have here and I do not want them being bred from inappropriately. This is probably hard for you to comprehend Steven, but according to your website, your bitches are all working type cocker spaniels who are failed gundogs or rescues. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but my breeding bitches must have more than an 'lovely temperament' before I breed from them. You can pull a mongrel of the street with a fantastic disposition, so does this make it a suitable candidate for a breeding programme? I don't think so.

I am quite open about it, all puppies bred by me MUST be de sexed buy the age of 7 months irrespective of their ***. If that's of putting for people, then purchase from another breeder, It really makes no difference to me. There are plenty breeders out there who are willing to taken someones money and hand them a puppy, without a care in the world for it's future well being. I am not one of those breeders.


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## Turi

Paul! What a disagreeable post!

Have you been and visited Jukee Doodles? 

Where on their website do Stephen & Julia claim that their Cockers are ‘failed gundogs’?

Stephen and Julia’s criteria for their dogs is incredibly rigorously and isn’t as crude as just choosing ‘lovely temperaments’. 

It is easy to make assumptions when you look at web sites – for example when I look at your website and the section regarding health testing your Cavalier I notice that while you heart-test your dogs yearly you make no reference to tests for Syringomyelia, Hereditary Cataract and Multifocal Retinal Dysplasia, Hip Dysplasia, Patella Luxation or Episodic Falling Syndrome. I could assume, therefore, that you don’t do these tests?


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## Turi

Oh, and I too would prefer the option to spay at the right time for my own dog too rather than having the decision made for me by the breeder.


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## wellerfeller

Can we not have this turn into to another tit for tat thread involving two breeders please. Both have stated their opinions, let's leave it at that. Thank you.


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## lady amanda

Hey all....let's get back on topic please.


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## Glendreamcockapoos

*Have you been and visited Jukee Doodles?
Where on their website do Stephen & Julia claim that their Cockers are ‘failed gundogs’?[/B

No, I've never been. Not really sure what this has to do with it.

I've just checked their website and that has been removed, but it did state that at one point. 

As this is a Cockapoo forum, it's nothing really to do with Cavaliers and what health testing I do or don't do. I do ALL relevant health testing as required by the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club. Two of my three stud dogs are scanned clear 'A' for SM and all are tested as genetically clear for EF. Hip scoring is not a common test within Cavalier or any other toy breeds.*


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## lady amanda

ON topic...or we will be closing this thread.


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## Glendreamcockapoos

I'm not doing any tit for tat!

I read the thread with interest. I was just stating that the Scottish breeder in question is me and I was giving some feedback as to why I place these restrictions on my puppies.

I respect other peoples opinions on the things they do and quite simply if people don't agree with my conditions, then buy a puppy from someone else


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## RubyCockapoo

Glendreamcockapoos said:


> I respect other peoples opinions on the things they do and quite simply if people don't agree with my conditions, then buy a puppy from someone else


Can't argue with that.

Ian


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## Sezra

So just out of interest are you saying that if someone had genuine reasons for wanting to spay after a season or when a male was one year old you wouldn't consider them? There is well documented evidence that demonstrates that it can be more beneficial health wise for males to be neutered later. If I was a breeder I think I would be more impressed that someone had done their homework but was still taking responsible attituide towards spaying/neutering their dogs.

I can appreciate you wanting to protect your lines and with Cockapoos being bred 'willy nilly' I don't think it is completely unreasonable to ask future owners to spay/neuter, I just think making them do it early is not justifiable.


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## Sezra

On the positive side, neutering male dogs

• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence.

Quoted from http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

You could also read these for other's opinions.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...angers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...d-beyond/is-early-neutering-hurting-pets.aspx
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml

I am not trying to persuede anyone that they should not neuter at 7 months, it is a very personal choice. However I hope that before anyone considers neutering/spaying they base their decision on proper research and not just what their vet or breeder says. Do what is right for you and what you are happy with.


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## mandym

I dont agree with putting an age on getting a puppy neautered,that should be up to the owners and i do feel 7 months is a bit young,however i understand the no breeding policy,im not saying i tell my new owners that they cannot breed but i would be devastated if one of my pups was bought purely for breeding so for that reason i will advertise my puppies as pets and also make sure they go to forever homes .A friend of mine had a puppy she bred end up in a puppyfarm( he has since been charged) but he came to buy the puppy as a pet,didnt mention breeding at all so i think its sensible to discuss this nicely with new owners to protect the pups,a good judge of character is sometimes not enough xxx


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## JoJo

mandym said:


> I dont agree with putting an age on getting a puppy neautered,that should be up to the owners and i do feel 7 months is a bit young,however i understand the no breeding policy,im not saying i tell my new owners that they cannot breed but i would be devastated if one of my pups was bought purely for breeding so for that reason i will advertise my puppies as pets and also make sure they go to forever homes .A friend of mine had a puppy she bred end up in a puppyfarm( he has since been charged) but he came to buy the puppy as a pet,didnt mention breeding at all so i think its sensible to discuss this nicely with new owners to protect the pups,a good judge of character is sometimes not enough xxx


That is heart breaking ... I bet your friend was so upset


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## RubyCockapoo

I think that a lot of people would just be looking to get a pet, and then over time mayconsider breeding from their dog. We have been asked quite a few times if we intend to breed from our girls. 

So while some people may have this as a plan from the outset, I think certainly in our case just having our first puppy was overwhelming and breeding never entered our heads...far too much else to think/worry about.

I still feel it is the owner's choice, and should be done in consultation with their vet - as the owners of girl dogs, it's a big step putting them in for what is fairly major surgery, but we did it we believed for their health and wellbeing, that's for sure.

Ian


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## Muttley Brody

My vets like to neuter dogs at 6 months, however they won't spay girls before they've had their first season. What happens then?

It can be a minefield as even vets have different ideas.


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## mandym

RubyCockapoo said:


> I think that a lot of people would just be looking to get a pet, and then over time mayconsider breeding from their dog. We have been asked quite a few times if we intend to breed from our girls.
> 
> So while some people may have this as a plan from the outset, I think certainly in our case just having our first puppy was overwhelming and breeding never entered our heads...far too much else to think/worry about.
> 
> I still feel it is the owner's choice, and should be done in consultation with their vet - as the owners of girl dogs, it's a big step putting them in for what is fairly major surgery, but we did it we believed for their health and wellbeing, that's for sure.
> 
> Ian


The man that bought my friends puppy was( unknown to her) already a puppy farmer,he just was not honest,he didnt make the decision later,he already knew exactly what he would be doing with the poor dog x


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## Glendreamcockapoos

At the end of the day it is the breeders prerogative to place whatever endorsements they wish on their puppies. If the purchaser has an issue, they have the opportunity to walk away and buy from someone else. I've had people in the past who would not agree to my terms, which is fine, one of my pups is obviously not for them. It really doesn't bother me. I sell my companion puppies purely as family pets, I don't want them bred from and for the most part this is of no relevance to the new owners, as most have no interest in ever breeding anyway.

I sold a black F1 girl to what I believed to be a lovely family a few years ago. They couldn't keep her and decided to pass her on to a work colleague, obviously without informing me. The next I heard was that she was a mother to 12 puppies! The people who now owned her also has a whippet cross who bred with her, on her first season, which meant she whelped 12 puppies at just over 9 months of age. There is no excuse for this, not in this day and age. I ended up getting her back along with the puppies, some of which I bottle reared, another couple I put onto another bitch and the rest she reared herself. She took mastitis and was very unwell for a good couple of weeks. The whole experience was horrific, not only for the poor dog, but also for me and everyone who helped me. She is now desexed and lives with my mothers ex-husband, but I wouldn't like to go through that experience again! So yeah, I place spey/neuter agreements on all my puppies sold as family pets, the contracts are legally binding, but if people don't like it then as I've said they can buy a puppy from someone else.

With regards to neutering, I think people should follow the advice of their vet. Most will agree that there is no valid reason to allow a bitch to cycle before speying her. The same with a male, why let them get the testosterone they are never going to need! I'm not getting into a big discussion on neutering, it's pretty pointless as each to their own. I've read your information, Sarah. Factual as it may seem, I wouldn't go by everything to read on the internet, it's a bit of a minefield. Speak to people who actually know what they are talking about and can back up what they say with facts.


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## Sezra

Fair enough, people can walk away and buy a puppy somewhere else 

I do not believe everything I believe on the internet however these are scientific studies by people who have actually carried out research and personally I would rather read the evidence from someone who is actually qualified to comment then go by what a breeder says. I have heard some breeders spout all sorts of nonsense so please forgive me if I do research and make up my own mind.


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