# Rough Play Fighting



## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

I have mentioned in another thread that I am concerned about the way that Willow and Bracken have been playing. I understand that puppies play fight and that it can look rough but Willow could cause serious damage to Bracken! Right at the start of the clip you can see Willow sort of sit on Bracken but she sits quite hard, she also does this with her shoulder sometimes (wrestler style). The other thing that concerns me is that Willow runs from accross the room and slides into or over or through (!) Bracken- I tried to film this but they run around so fast!! I don't want to give either of them a complex by getting too involved myself! Do I tell Willow off? How? I break them up by putting Bracken out of Willow's path but sometimes Willow doesn't let up. Last night I put Bracken in her crate when it got too much and as she was tired she went to sleep anyway, during the day I can't keep doing this or else Bracken wouldn't have much time out! Sometimes they'll share toys, sometimes Willow will snatch toys away from Bracken.

Have a look and let me know what you think!! Really sorry about the poor footage, sunlight/black dogs running around fast is tricky to film!

Thanks in advance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p78ewZKyXM&feature=g-upl


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

I have to say compared to Betty and Ted their play fighting is pretty tame
Have a look a my ''when is rough too rough'' thread - there is a video of them at it.. Ted is nearly 5 Moths now and the same size as Betty - sometimes it looks and sounds as if they are about to kill each other, but they both keep going back for more so am fairly happy to leave them to it. If I occasionally think it is going a bit too far I will shout ENOUGH at them and they do stop...until the next time!


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## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry I can't advise as am at same stage as you with two poos but it does all look very familiar...especially the pinning down. I sometimes think Biscuit is not only doing this to exert dominance but to teach bite inhibition as we are not getting nipped that much by Honey. I think pups are far more resilient than what we think and I'm sure Bracken won't get hurt in this sort of play fighting. It will probably ease up as time goes on. x


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## emmelg (Mar 4, 2012)

This is quite normal, my two still do it now, it does look frightening sometimes (especially as there's a big size difference )I had the same worry when bailey was younger, but now I just let them get on with it xx


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

I think (hope) I'm being quite casual about the fighting but Willow doesn't seem to get the message that Bracken has had enough and just wont leave her alone! Willow is like a child and tries to wake Bracken up when she's asleep! I have to pull her away and tell her to leave her alone! 

Colin, I had already watched your video and I thought mine were worse but I think it's hard to capture what its like in the house over film! Do either of you tell the older off? Jane, I definately think you're right about teaching bite inhibition, I've hardly been bitten at all (touch wood)!!


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

Lozzie said:


> I think (hope) I'm being quite casual about the fighting but Willow doesn't seem to get the message that Bracken has had enough and just wont leave her alone! Willow is like a child and tries to wake Bracken up when she's asleep! I have to pull her away and tell her to leave her alone!
> 
> Colin, I had already watched your video and I thought mine were worse but I think it's hard to capture what its like in the house over film! Do either of you tell the older off? Jane, I definately think you're right about teaching bite inhibition, I've hardly been bitten at all (touch wood)!!


My two still go hell for leather ( worse than in the video -just had another look as it was a while ago...) but I was told that if they take in in turns to be the one ''under attack'' - then it is all good.
I try to not to tell Betty off as I think it is just normal doggy behaviour - I rather just stop the behaviour by saying enough. I totally agree though about the bite inhibition...I've not been nipped at all, neither have we ever had to give Ted ''time out'' - I think all his energies are used up fending off Betty


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Does Betty come to you for safe refuge and what do you do then? I wouldn't say that they take it in turns to be on top, Willow is on top much more of the time and if Bracken gets hold of Willow at all, it's not long until Willow has bashed her back down!


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## lilaclynda (Jul 24, 2010)

i was just thinking that about Ollie and Millie ,that doesnt look as rough as my 2 but has similar comparisons as does Colins . Ollie is laying down and Millie just leaps on him and starts biting him she hangs off his ears his chin and his tinkle. He sounds like a sealion when they get going ,Millies teeth must be sharp sometimes Ollie pins her down and does something in her ear then she yelps ,someone has told me thats him telling her off . It is very worrying to know whether its all natural but like Colin said as long as its all fair and not one sided its supposed to be ok 
lynda x


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## Nanci (Mar 1, 2012)

Oh Laura!!! I am soooo glad you posted that video . . I personally think it looks a bit rougher than Colins (absolutely no offence intended Colin), and it would be a carbon copy to the tee of Sami and Carly, color, size difference and EXACT same rough play. I was quite alarmed and fretted the first day as Carleys little head stayed wet from him mouthing her. He stood over her constantly and would "block" her in a corner, sit on her, paw her face, hold her down, just like your video. The second day she was a little less weary and would growl, bark and fight back with lots of snapping, she was even on top of him at times and actually made him squeel a bit. Yesterday and today it is maybe 25% better, but far from comfortable for me to watch for very long. I sit on the floor and let them go at it for about 10-15 minutes, thats about all Carley can tolerate. She will run to me for refuge at which time I call Sami off. If she is chewing a bone or entertaining herself and he goes in for an ear bite etc, I call him off. If she is sleeping, I definately call him off and say "Carley is nite nite" and he backs off. However . . if they are in the garden, which is large, there are times (like this morning) he will get a full on run and roll her 2-3 times, today he bonked her head with his and I heard it!! If they are outdoors, and I call him off, he ignores me!! So I just pick her up an end the garden time for Sami, he goes indoors and she stays out for a few minutes more. At times I have to take them out separate so she can do her business in peace!! That being said . . I take Sami aside many times per day for love and cuddles, give his special treats all his own, and take him for walks by himself, I also praise him for "nice" play. But I definately do interveve if I see the rough play has lasted to long or is to rough for my comfort, and will continue to do so until she is larger and able to fend for herself. I think this is the same as a mother dog would do for her puppy as well. When I return to work next week Sami will be in the main part of the house, living area and bedroom with window he likes to look out. Carley will be gated in the kitchen area on tile floor. At this point i would not feel comfortable leaving them together unsupervised. I will be working 5 hrs and probably nervous to be home quickly as I was with Sami, who actually stayed for 6-7 hrs by himself 3 days a week and did very well. But I asked for reduced hrs now as I have been nursing for 30 yrs and am ready for a break!! Sorry for the long post but I wanted you to understand how acutely I understand your concern and this is how I'm handeling it for the moment . . this has been my biggest hurddle, more than the housetraining as she cannot run around like he was able to because he will immediatly chase after and pester her. On the up side I think they are a good match as she is fiesty and even with all the rough play has only squeeled 2 times. She does not cower, she holds her ground, just usually tires out before he is willing to back off. That will change when she is a big girl! Good luck to you and thank you again for the eyes on, it has really helped me a lot as I have never had two poos before and this alarmed me at first.


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## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

Hi Laura

I would say this looks absolutely fine to me. Bracken is brilliant for such a little pup and she really seems to hold her own against Willow. Wait until she gets bigger and then you will see proper play fighting!!

Nacho play fights with my dads dog scooby. Sometimes Nacho doesn't know when to stop and Scooby puts him in his place. Last week Nacho wee'd himself as he was so scared and hid behind me - that's when I get worried but I don't think Scoobs would actually hurt him - just warn him! The video seems purely play fighting to me and not too extreme either. Try not to worry and if you do want to separate them teach them to stop on a command like 'enough'. 

Nacho and scooby stop when I do this.


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

Lozzie said:


> Does Betty come to you for safe refuge and what do you do then? I wouldn't say that they take it in turns to be on top, Willow is on top much more of the time and if Bracken gets hold of Willow at all, it's not long until Willow has bashed her back down!



Neither of mine seek ( or have ever sought) refuge which is why I am happy to leave them to it...Ted could not get ''on top ''when he was small but did keep going back for more, nipping at Betty's ankles etc.... it is far more even now they are similar size....lots of teeth gnashing which looks quite funny but I don't believe they have ever hurt each other.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

The roughness would not worry me as pups often look like they are killing each other - but - not sure how representative the film clip is it looks as though Bracken is repeatedly trying to move away from Willow but is persued. Regardless of size difference play should be equal in terms of both dog initiating and that does not look like it is on that film clip.

I would be removing Willow from the situation if she is not getting the message that Bracken does not want to play rather than removing Bracken who on that clip looks rather more like the victim of over enthusiastic play?


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## BenandGen (Jul 3, 2012)

How old is Bracken?


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Mine play fight a lot and Bonnie who is the underdog often starts it. Dexter is bigger and heavier and more rough. Bonnie will squeak when she has had enough and that's when if Dexter doesn't leave her alone I clap my hands and say no. If he still antagonises her then I shut him out of the room or give them both a chew to distract them.


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Firstly thanks to Nanci! Glad you can see what I see as too rough and glad to hear you're in the same boat!!

Bracken is 8 weeks old and has been with us for four days now.

She is definately starting to hold her ground and I'm not concerned at the concept of play fighting at all I just want to ensure that I am dealing with it in the right way and am not going to have any kind of adverse impact on their relationship by intervening in the wrong way. Almost every time they play, Bracken is seeking me out either to hide behind my legs if I'm stood up, on my legs if I'm on the floor with legs outstretched, under my legs if I'm sat on the floor with my knees up and she'll try desperately to get up onto the sofa away from Willow if I'm sat there.

I haven't had them fully separated since Bracken arrived bar a trip to the vets for Bracken which had them both squeeking when I left and Bracken crying the whole journey in the car (when she was in the car with Willow she cries a little but much less). I'm taking Willow out to training tonight anyway so they will have a break from one another then but I will try to make an effort to take Willow for walks on her own rather than carrying Bracken with us.

Any suggestions with regards to seperating Willow away from Bracken when it's too much? Her safe place is the kitchen but she only gets shut in there at night or when we're going out and will howl the house down if I put her in there to remove her from Bracken.

Thanks everyone for your guidance and suggestions!!


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## Nanci (Mar 1, 2012)

Separating them is a problem for me too! If I put Carley in her crate, she howels during the day unless its her choice. If I put Sami in another room he scratches the door and howels also. So if she comes to me while I'm sitting on the floor I hold her on my lap and call Sami off . . if I'm on the couch she is usually worn out and will happily collapse on a pillow beside me and is still and quiet for a nap. He will not bother her while she is sleeping. If I'm up and about doing housework, cooking etc its a bit trickier . . If hubby is home I tell him 2 call Sami to him and play with him or make him lay down for a rest as he is still a puppy also and gets overexcited. The other times I try not to scold Sami as he really is not deliberately trying to harm her, I just say "enough!!" and it works for about 5 minutes, sometimes longer . . at times they both collapse and are almost touching!! Sami got a flea bath today with lots of scrubbing and is passed out on the kitchen floor, she is beside me on a pillow, but went to her crate and slept the entire time I was drying and brushing him (sami NEVER went in his crate during the day) So it seems to be hour to hour doesn't it? Play it by ear and observe . . you can definately tell when it is to rough and your puppy looks distressed . .Carley pants and looks for me, I can just tell . .at times he will block her from running to me and I go and get her. It's actually a little bit better today . . I'm sure each day they will get to know each other better and be best buds soon! YOU know your poo better than anybody else . . go with your instinct.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Bracken looked to me as if she was doing some of the instigating at times. Willow looked as if she was being quiet gentle sometimes too. I think I would intervene if Bracken goes into her cage. That's her space and her sanctuary and Willow needs to learn this. Maybe as 'top dog' you should intervene when you want it to stop.


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## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

lilaclynda said:


> i was just thinking that about Ollie and Millie ,that doesnt look as rough as my 2 but has similar comparisons as does Colins . Ollie is laying down and Millie just leaps on him and starts biting him she hangs off his ears his chin and his tinkle. He sounds like a sealion when they get going ,Millies teeth must be sharp sometimes Ollie pins her down and does something in her ear then she yelps ,someone has told me thats him telling her off . It is very worrying to know whether its all natural but like Colin said as long as its all fair and not one sided its supposed to be ok
> lynda x


Biscuit makes the sealion type noise too! He used to do this with my youngest son when they played but now he does it with Honey and it's definitely as if he's trying to teach her. On her second night in her crate, she whined a bit and then went quiet only to start whining again a few minutes later. Biscuit barked very loudly a few times and she's never done it since! x


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Having only had Bracken for 4 days I would be supervising and seperating them a lot more I am afraid. Willow is probably overexited with his new playmate but Bracken needs to feel secure and not be bullied. If Bracken is moving away and seeking protection from you then he is being overfaced by Willow and ultimately will stand his ground to fight back which is not the way you want their relationship to develop. You need to establish firm boundaries and a way of seperating the dogs - maybe use a stair gate to seperate them or crate Willow too.

It is very good even for pairs of dogs to learn to cope on their own as well as together otherwise they can become over reliant on each other.


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## Nanci (Mar 1, 2012)

I think the overexcited idea is spot on!!! Also the idea of two dogs learning to cope on their own AND together, very good advise. Tonight Sami and Carley both have a chew bone of their own and they keep swapping bones!! Sami was not much interested in chew bones before Carley got here, now if she has one, he wants one too, and that is fine! If she runs over and steals his bone, he runs over and gets hers. This has gone on for over an hour and so far no growling with sharing.


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## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

Having watched the video and looked at Willows age (only 8months?) I think she is just too over excited which is understandable as she's still a baby herself really. I agree you should probably tame it a little by separating them once Bracken shows signs that's she's had enough. Crate them both with a chew then one is not getting preferential treatment over the other. Over time as Bracken grows and Willow calms down if will even out and you won't feel so worried.


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## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

Lozzie said:


> Do either of you tell the older off? Jane, I definately think you're right about teaching bite inhibition, I've hardly been bitten at all (touch wood)!!


Yes I do find myself telling Biscuit off at times as he is the one who gets too over-excited. But I don't like doing that and find it better having a treat for him and asking him to come to me. He is so food driven that it works and once he came over today I decided to use this time for a bit of grooming, cuddling, etc which gave Honey a chance to go off and have a rest! x


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Further to my initial post and having just replied to a thread about having two dogs close together, Willow and Bracken started play fighting so I thought I would film it and share! I've included a description with the vid so I won't repeat what I've written there  Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53T9oQyIyBk&sns=em


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Apologies for the erratic filming by the way!


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## emmelg (Mar 4, 2012)

Lozzie said:


> Further to my initial post and having just replied to a thread about having two dogs close together, Willow and Bracken started play fighting so I thought I would film it and share! I've included a description with the vid so I won't repeat what I've written there  Enjoy!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53T9oQyIyBk&sns=em


Great video, they both give as good as they get and they look very happy together x


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## kiwi37uk (Aug 30, 2012)

This looks fine to me. I have an adult staffie who plays with Pepsi and they fight like this all the time. Pepsi pounces on my staffie all the time and then they fight but if ever Pepsi cries then Tia stops so I know she won't hurt her on purpose but I do worry she will by accident. I tend to leave them to it unless it has gone on for a long long time then I tell them both enough and try to get them to sit next to each other and stroke them both it seems to clam them down for 5 mins


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## Nanci (Mar 1, 2012)

Again . .this could be my two precicely!! They are both even black! lol The size difference is exact and the interaction as well. I do not intervene at this point unless it gets really frenzied . . My little Carley can hold her own and is generally the one that goes back for more!! This looks perfectly normal to me and very close to home . . Do they have loving moments when they lay together or lick each other or greet each other?


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Sometimes they'll snuggle but most of the time they like their own space! It's a shame there's that small pond between us Nanci, I'd love to meet up with all four of them together!!


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## loopyloo (Aug 18, 2012)

I was watching your video Laura and Raffy started barking at the noise so I picked him up and he watched the whole thing right through, giving little hrmph sounds. Do you think he rcognised Brackens voice? I think the play fighting is fine, by the way. Bracken seems quite able to stand up for herself


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## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Aww that's so cute!! I hope he does recognise her voice because that would be lovely!!!


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Mine play rough, Bonnie doesn't like rough play too much and she squeals loudly when she has had enough. Dexter doesn't always stop so I clap my hands loudly at him and he stops As he knows the next step is to be shut behind the stair gate.


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