# Health tests before breeding



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Molly has recently been diagnosed with luxating patella and I have had an interesting discussion with my vet this afternoon about the liklihood that this is a result of poor breeding stock and that they are now seeing increasing quantities of poodle crosses of all types with this and other problems. Her hips are also not as good as he would have hoped for a dog of her age and light frame  If we can't manage the condition then this is likely to result in her having to undergo painful operations with difficult recovery periods.

The main focus on breeders websites appears to be on PRA testing and in the majority of cases only the stud dogs are tested with the more numerous bitches going completely untested. Other conditions appear to be utterly ignored.

Pups are sold at top prices which I would expect to see for pedigree's coming from two totally health tested parents so if breeders are going to continue to charge top prices please carry out every available check on both dogs and bitches and start to provide people with pups with every possible chance of living a long pain free life rather than facing a future of pain and surgery


----------



## mandym (Jun 5, 2011)

Im so glad you have brought this up because this is something i have been planning to speak to my vet about.One of my clients has 2 cockapoos and one has been diagnosed with a luxating patella particularly common in poodles so i am hoping to start testing for this in 2012.Up til now i have just had the eyes tested but it seems this condition is appearing here and there and i iwll feel happier knowing i have ruled something else out x


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear this .... 

You are right some breeders do focus on either BVA or DNA testing or no testing at all .. however there are many test available .... 

I have a few health testing articles .. there are many tests available when breeding the pure breeds and further generations of cockapoos .... 

http://www.mydogslife.co.uk/2011/09/19/health-testing-available-in-the-uk-when-breeding-cockapoos/

http://www.mydogslife.co.uk/2011/07/03/general-health-of-cockapoos/

http://www.mydogslife.co.uk/2011/09/22/parent-pure-breed-cockapoo-health-testing/

I am still learning myself and will be looking into Patellar Luxation testing further, see whats available in the UK ... 

Sending Molly and you a hug .. how is she in herself?


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

mandym said:


> Im so glad you have brought this up because this is something i have been planning to speak to my vet about.One of my clients has 2 cockapoos and one has been diagnosed with a luxating patella particularly common in poodles so i am hoping to start testing for this in 2012.Up til now i have just had the eyes tested but it seems this condition is appearing here and there and i iwll feel happier knowing i have ruled something else out x


Mandy I thought you were looking into this .. I will be doing the same ... please share with me your findings and I will do the same .. xxx


----------



## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

I just wish there was a standard health checklist, highlighting potential issues with each particular breed, that breeders had to follow and include copies of all these checks in the puppy pack. It seems such a simple request but sadly there are too many puppies being bred, as stated above, where only one parent has had any checks, if at all. I spoke with a vet friend about this and she said unfortunately there is no legal requirement for breeders to carry out any tests which just seems so wrong in my mind - especially when charging premium prices. I do think it has got a bit out of hand.


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear about Molly.  

I agree with you, more health testing needs to be done rather than the bare minimum PRA on the stud dog. The price that we pay for Cockapoos is more than most thoroughly tested pedigrees (although not all). Shirley and I would like to see more breeders taking these other conditions seriously.

I really do hope that she is ok.

x


----------



## Janev1000 (Oct 4, 2011)

Mandy and JoJo - you both set such a fine example of what other breeders should be doing.


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

JoJo said:


> Sending Molly and you a hug .. how is she in herself?


Thanks. She has not been too bad up to now but we are working on improving her muscles to get them to hold things in place and I was warned this might make things worse in the short term. She has had acupuncture this afternoon to try to ease things and I think this has made her a bit more sore tonight.


----------



## mum2bobs (Jun 23, 2010)

This is surely an area where the newly formed CCGB should be helping to set the standards isn't it, especially if it is starting to be a problem for the 'breed'?


----------



## kendal (Jul 16, 2009)

hip displazia is also becoming common in cockers knee and elbow displzia too but the hips are the biggy.


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Thank you for posting 2ndhandgal, now we have someone who actually has a dog as proof that ALL these health issues need testing for!
Poor Molly I hope she is not in too much pain and I know you are obviously giving her the best possible care.
If this isn't a wake up call then I don't know what is..........if I were now searching for a pup I would want to see these health tests in place and wouldn't touch anyone with a barge pole that didn't do them.
I was ignorant of these issues possibly affecting cockers and poodles, I only knew of PRA, most of my doggy experience has been with large breeds. 

So now I know and and now I would urge people to ask for these health tests.
I have been educated and by reaching and educating others puppy searching, eventually the tide will turn and breeders will HAVE to have to tests in place as that is what their customer base expects. It really is a case of consumer power!

Best wishes to you and Molly.


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

So are all these conditions genetic?? sorry for being thick but it is a worry.I thought some knee and joint problems occured just from over exercise/jumping etc as a puppy?

Can anyone explain what we shouldnt be doing with our puppies so they dont develop certain joint problems as they grow up thanks.


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Donna, most are hereditary and can be tested for before breeding. This gives details of what the reccomended health tests are.


http://www.cockapoo-owners-club.org.uk/cockapoo_finding_a_breeder_health_tests.html

Hope this helps.
x


----------



## mandym (Jun 5, 2011)

DONNA said:


> So are all these conditions genetic?? sorry for being thick but it is a worry.I thought some knee and joint problems occured just from over exercise/jumping etc as a puppy?
> 
> Can anyone explain what we shouldnt be doing with our puppies so they dont develop certain joint problems as they grow up thanks.



Yes luxating patella is a genetic condition of the knee and is becoming more common in poodles,thats no 2 cockapoos ive heard of with the condition so thats made my mind up with regards to testing for it.with regards to exersise in young dogs,i do know that generally its the larger faster groing breeds like german shepherds,great danes,st bernards etc that exercise has to be very limited when theyre young,ive never gone by this rules with my cockapoos though but i would still not over do it when theyre still pups xxx


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

DONNA said:


> So are all these conditions genetic?? sorry for being thick but it is a worry.I thought some knee and joint problems occured just from over exercise/jumping etc as a puppy?
> 
> Can anyone explain what we shouldnt be doing with our puppies so they dont develop certain joint problems as they grow up thanks.


Hi Donna, these are genetic conditions. Some breeds are more prone to certain condititions than others. Labs are famous for hip and elbow dysplasia as are GSD's. Some are not so well known. I had no clue cockers could also suffer this condition.
Over exercise can indeed make things worse but also under excercise can be just as bad. The joints and surrounding support tissues need exercise to be strong but not to be overstrained.
Young dogs should not be encouraged to jump from any height, hence agility shouldn't be started until after a year old. A good rough and tumble with others in the park is a good thing though as it is a natural way for young dogs to develop and socialise. If they are young and have bundles of energy and no off button its down to you to judge when your dog has had a good exercise and when they are likely to over do it.
Thats why breeders need to test for these thing so that owners don't have the worry of their pet developing any of these conditions.

My friends lab has limped quite badly from the age of 9 months.......now that dog can have upto another 10 years in chronic pain
It would just break your heart if it happened to your pet.

If parent are hip and elbow scored before breeding and an acceptable score is present then you can be reasonably sure that the offspring should be sound in hip and elbow, if a bad score is present any litter bred will have a much higher chance of developing dysplasia. Its down to the breeders and people buying pups to ask for these tests.


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh dear dosnt sound good,how much does it cost to have these tests done?


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

I must confess Donna I do not know how much they cost. However if you think about the amount of money a Cockapoo puppy costs * the number in each litter * four litters in a bitches lifetime, then there is more thn enough to cover the tests. If a bitch had 6 puppies per litter and did not need any additional medical intervention then that one bitch would bring in £21600. Obvioulsy there are other costs to take into account such as food, vet checks, vaccinations, worming treatments etc etc however I feel that there is no excuse for not testing dogs and bitches properly apart from saving £££££££££.


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Not sure how representitive this is however I have found out the following

To test for FN £85
Optigen £120
Eye exam approx £40
Hip scores approx £150

That is all I have found out for now but I think you would be looking to pay around the £500-£600 to test a dog properly. A small price to pay to ensure that you are producing healthy puppies. Even if you breed carriers as breeders regularly do, puppies are sold without contracts and could go on to be bred with other carriers producing affected puppies. As someone pointed out on another thread there are SO many puppies on preloved, most of them without any health tests on the parent dogs.

I want our club to become popular, not because there is anything in it for us because we are non profitable but because we want to try and improve the breeding situation and make the public more aware when they go looking for a Cockapoo puppy that there is more to it than finding a cute fluffy dog!

I think all of these club discussions are really positive  This is a fantastic opportunity to make a difference but we need to set the standards high if we want to make any difference.


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

mandym said:


> Yes luxating patella is a genetic condition of the knee and is becoming more common in poodles,thats no 2 cockapoos ive heard of with the condition so thats made my mind up with regards to testing for it.with regards to exersise in young dogs,i do know that generally its the larger faster groing breeds like german shepherds,great danes,st bernards etc that exercise has to be very limited when theyre young,ive never gone by this rules with my cockapoos though but i would still not over do it when theyre still pups xxx


LP is more common in the toy breeds (but not restricted to) so is a must if breeding with a toy poodle but I think it could be good practice for cockapoo breeders to have all their dogs checked out prior to breeding for this condition.

Ok have said this a few times now so sorry if I am repeating myself.
Unlike hips and eyes there is no UK screening programme at present so diagnosis is made by your vet.


OK THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AS I HAVE RESEARCHED ALL THE TESTS FOR OUR DOGS AND HAVE NOT JUST COPIED AND PASTED. I AM NOT AN EXPERT SO SEEK PROFESSIONAL ADVICE_ BUT THESE ARE MY VIEWS TO WHICH I AM ENTITLED TO:



Diagnosis by a vet *could* be problem as some vets may be better at diagnosing than others. As with anything that requires visual testing or manipulation by hand things could go un-noticed, especially to the less experienced vet.

If you dog is not presenting physical symptoms a vet could do a manipulation test of the joints and find all ok and you could bred and then later find out the condition is present, maybe the age of poodle studs could therefore be a consideration??? some do put there dogs to stud young- if stud poodle dogs were say at least 18 months -2 (off top of my head) then they will be mature and a good time frame has been given for LP to show early clinical signs.

Using a very young stud of 6 months to a year could in some instances not give enough time for the condition to show enough clinical signs to be picked up on. 

As it is a progressive disease symptoms usually start off slowly and may go un-noticed at first.

A good vet could include a manual check as part of their regular check e.g heart, eyes, teeth etc......

Unfortunately there is no DNA test available for LP- so it is finding a good vet who will be able to carry out an examination and be able to quickly identify any joint problems.

Any dog that has been diagnosed with LP should not be bred from. 


Mandy when you do get yours tested would be great to hear how the process went for future reference


----------



## Mandie (Oct 21, 2010)

I am sorry to hear about Molly and hope she is ok. I am glad that you are sharing your experience with us, and hopefully it will make other people think before buying a puppy that’s parents have not been health checked.

I am waiting for my new puppy, and i would not buy of anyone that does not health check, and i will hopefully find one that does all the necessary checks for both the cocker and the poodle, (fingers and toes crossed).

I am sure that is the main thing we all want is a happy healthy puppy, and we also want the parents of the puppy to be the same. I don’t think it is a lot to ask of a breeder, as there main priority should also be the health of the puppies / dogs.


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Just to clarify, joint disorders can be caused by under or over exercising too - but in many cases it is down to poor breeding stock and in Mollys case the hip joint and knee joints are the problems rather than anything which could have been caused this far in her life.

She is fine for the moment and I will do everything in my power to keep her fine but this does mean she is likely to have more pain as she gets older which to my mind make it completely unacceptable for breeders to not doing every possible test - as others have pointed out the total cost of tests for one dog or bitch is likely to be less than the price 1 puppy is sold for.

Molly herself is much happier this morning and decided her new route out of the back door is to jump onto the garden bench and then over the back of it onto the grass behind.

Sorry edited as I had posted at the same time as Shirley - yes experience of the vet is also key as another much younger vet had told me there were no structural problems with Molly and any pain must be down to a muscle pull. Thankfully I chose to pursue this and have now seen two seperate far more experienced vets who have both found exactly the same problem and have both mentioned that surgery might be necessary in her case.


----------



## marzy (Aug 20, 2010)

bless her 
give her a hug from me xx 
marzy xx


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

2ndhandgal I have heard that Turmeric is good for arthritis/joint pain and is an anti-inflammatory - so if you like the "natural " approach along with magnetic collars that have previously been suggested may help her.......


Here is a link : http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/Turmeric.htm


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

Sezra said:


> Not sure how representitive this is however I have found out the following
> 
> To test for FN £85
> Optigen £120
> ...


I think for that price then the tests should be done really ,are these test conclusive? also would say only the father (poodle) need to be tested?

Im sure as with human beings there are lots of gentic conditions out there and you would not be able to test for everything prehaps they should look at just the major problems these dogs could inherit,im speaking as a mother who has passed on a genetic disease to her son (cf) i know you cannot compare but if the tests are so cheap i think they should be done but only if they are completly conclusive.


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

DONNA said:


> also would say only the father (poodle) need to be tested?


Sorry - totally disagree that only the father should be tested - the only possible reason I can see for only testing the stud is cheapness as one stud will be used many more times (which incidentally means huge genetic issues for those wishing to turn the cockapoo into a proper breed further down the generations) 

No test is conclusive but if breeders are charging top prices for pups as they are they should be doing every possible test to try and ensure pups are as healthy as they can possibly be - to do otherwise is gambling with the health of the pups people are buying to save money on doing health tests.


----------



## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm really sorry to hear about Molly. You could also give her Glucosamine and high strength 25+ Manuka Honey (although that is really expensive)

Health testing is certainly going to be a major way to sort out good breeding practices from bad. Now that we have learned much more about the potential health problems JD are set on a programme to test all of our breeding dogs over the coming months. Three more are booked on Thurs to take the bloods for PRA and we are going to try the German lab Labokiln that has a lab also on Manchester this time. The vet visit will already be it's cost then £89.95 for PRA DNA but with the same blood we can also have FN DNA tested at an extra cost of £75.45 each dog. For not such a big extra cost it seems sensible to do it at the same time. We are also starting to hip score the dogs. First ones booked in next week and yes I believe it's about £150 each. 
I believe that if breeders want to continue to find homes for their puppies then it is the buyers that will dictate that the health tests need to be done. To start with as long as some breeders have acctually done the tests then buyers have a solid point to put to any breeder they are considering buying a puppy from: if they've done the tests why haven't you. We are, and others should be prepared to put their money where their mouth is. 
JD can accept that some of you love our set up and others don't like the fact that we are a bigger licensed breeder, that's fine you are entitled to your opinion. Taking that as a given and putting it to one side, if over the coming months you wish to use us as an example to encourage other breeders to do the tests then go for it. None of us can change the world but if we can help in some small way then that seems worthwhile to me. 

Julia


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks Julia - and good to know you are increasing your health tests.

It looks like there are also standard tests for patella luxation which can probably be carried out at the same time as hip scoring:

http://www.english-toy-terrier.co.uk/pl.htm

Apologies for the breed but it was the best link I found after a quick search.


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

2ndhandgal said:


> Sorry - totally disagree that only the father should be tested - the only possible reason I can see for only testing the stud is cheapness as one stud will be used many more times (which incidentally means huge genetic issues for those wishing to turn the cockapoo into a proper breed further down the generations)
> 
> No test is conclusive but if breeders are charging top prices for pups as they are they should be doing every possible test to try and ensure pups are as healthy as they can possibly be - to do otherwise is gambling with the health of the pups people are buying to save money on doing health tests.


That was a question not a statement


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

Well done Julia for doing the tests im sure others will also agree,i only knew about the PRA tests when looking for my poo and i discounted lots of breeders who didnt do it ,so this is another very positive move and like you say hopefully others will follow.dx


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Putting the size to one side, if a breeder decided to set an example with health testing and set the standards higher for other breeders to aspire to then that would be a huge step forward. It is owner/buyer driven which is why it is important that we are more knowledgeable about these conditions. We are the ones who will see our beloved pets suffer through lack of care when breeding.


----------



## mum2bobs (Jun 23, 2010)

Julia, do you not think that this is a prime opportunity for the CCGB to really set the benchmark? I think that only eye tests are stipulated as being compulsory for member breeders, which is great, but as the club is in its infancy it is a prime time to really make a statement on the importance of proper testing.

It would be a great move for the club, but mainly for the future and health of the 'breed' if higher testing standards were set by its registration body wouldn't it?

Maybe it's something the committee could discuss?


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Jukee Doodles said:


> I'm really sorry to hear about Molly. You could also give her Glucosamine and high strength 25+ Manuka Honey (although that is really expensive)
> 
> Health testing is certainly going to be a major way to sort out good breeding practices from bad. Now that we have learned much more about the potential health problems JD are set on a programme to test all of our breeding dogs over the coming months. Three more are booked on Thurs to take the bloods for PRA and we are going to try the German lab Labokiln that has a lab also on Manchester this time. The vet visit will already be it's cost then £89.95 for PRA DNA but with the same blood we can also have FN DNA tested at an extra cost of £75.45 each dog. For not such a big extra cost it seems sensible to do it at the same time. We are also starting to hip score the dogs. First ones booked in next week and yes I believe it's about £150 each.
> I believe that if breeders want to continue to find homes for their puppies then it is the buyers that will dictate that the health tests need to be done. To start with as long as some breeders have acctually done the tests then buyers have a solid point to put to any breeder they are considering buying a puppy from: if they've done the tests why haven't you. We are, and others should be prepared to put their money where their mouth is.
> ...


Julia, credit where it is due!! That is great news. like you say if some breeders start to test for these conditions then it will make the ones that don't think again. I know which one I would consider buying a pup from.


----------



## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

mum2bobs said:


> Julia, do you not think that this is a prime opportunity for the CCGB to really set the benchmark? I think that only eye tests are stipulated as being compulsory for member breeders, which is great, but as the club is in its infancy it is a prime time to really make a statement on the importance of proper testing.
> 
> It would be a great move for the club, but mainly for the future and health of the 'breed' if higher testing standards were set by its registration body wouldn't it?
> 
> Maybe it's something the committee could discuss?



Well as I see it in an idealistic world the CCGB could lay down the law and every breeder would have to happily comply, simple! If only life were so easy. 

The CCGB have stuck their neck out already with the PRA DNA test being mandatory and feel comfortable to do so because the test is pretty conclusive that if one parent is DNA clear then the worst any offspring will be is a carrier and carriers do not get the eye disease.

If one breeder raises their game to encompass everything idyllic wanted / needed from the masses (actually a select few who are pressing for it !) then with the acknowledged costs involved - the imposed restrictions demanded on litter numbers etc etc will mean that the puppy price would need to be amended well beyond the reach of many buyers - how many other breeders would then follow ? Where are all the other wannabe Cockapoo puppy owners going to go - to a breeder who does the generally acceptable norm !

 
An very feasable knock-on to imposing all tests would be:


Not many of your Home Breeders will bother with this initial outlay in the first place and will not sign up?

Not many of your Hobby Breeders bother will ALL the tests - if they only have one litter, would they recoup their costs as these health tests are only a small part of the cost of raising a litter? So will not sign-up.

Your business breeders would then get even larger (because demand would still be there) as they would justify the testing cost - but then would this be classed as “farming” ?

So potentially absolute demands could push the Cockapoo breeding world backwards and send a large proportion of it underground !
I will point out that generally what is accepted as the norm now, still does have the best interest and welfare of the dog in mind and are you aware that 99.9% of customers do not even think / want / intend to breed from their beloved pet anyway !!! So in essence producing a healthy pet is should be the object of all education in this area. Remembering that this thread was about Molly's diagnosed of slipping patella which is exactly why this discussion should be taking place because we should try to understand how best to prevent such a case, across the board.

This is truly a Catch 22 scenario ! - we’d be dammed if we do and dammed if we don’t.
This is the real World and not a fairytale one!!!!

What we have seen so far is a select few who want this Holy Grail of IDEAL - it is a brilliant idea and we support it - but it does not support itself. As if it could - don’t you think that the KC would have embraced it long ago - and as such pedigree dogs would be supreme and the Cockapoo may never have found it's place?


We do actually have a dog here 'the Cockapoo' that surpasses lots that have gone in recent history - the general health issues for the Cockapoo are minimal in the big picture and the hybrid vigor of the first crossing is a bonus too - but some MAY think it overkill to wrap the breed into such a tight bundle of red-tape that either no one breeds or it goes “underground” ??? 
So I guess what I'm saying is that somewhere along the line we have to use education and awareness to get breeders to follow good example by their own choice, because they can see that this direction will both benefit their dogs and themselves. Unfortunately none of us have a magic wand.

Julia


----------



## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

2ndhandgal said:


> Molly has recently been diagnosed with luxating patella (


 Sorry to hear about Molly  I'm glad to hear she is not in too much pain at the moment. Thank you for sharing this with us all as we all need educating on the possible health issues that could be avoided by breeding health tests. As the owner of a puppy who was critically ill at 6months and not knowing whether is was inherited genetically or not (there is not enough research to know but I suspect it is) health testing is a priority for me now.



mandym said:


> so i am hoping to start testing for this in 2012.


 Mandy that is excellent news, well done you, I hope more breedrs (hobby or licensed) will do the same. 



mum2bobs said:


> This is surely an area where the newly formed CCGB should be helping to set the standards isn't it, especially if it is starting to be a problem for the 'breed'?


 Couldn't agree more. The CCGB has a real chance to make a difference here. 



wellerfeller said:


> So now I know and and now I would urge people to ask for these health tests. I have been educated and by reaching and educating others puppy searching, eventually the tide will turn and breeders will HAVE to have to tests in place as that is what their customer base expects. It really is a case of consumer power!


. You are totally right Karen. Now we are all more aware of the issues (I for one only knew about PRA when I was looking for Obi) it's down to the puppy buyers to insist on these tests. We pay a premium for our preferred type of dog and we expect them to be healthy. When I buy dog no.2 I will certainly be paying much more attention to the other health tests. Mt concern is that there won't be enough breeders out there doing more than just DNA tests for PRA.



Jukee Doodles said:


> Now that we have learned much more about the potential health problems JD are set on a programme to test all of our breeding dogs over the coming months.


 Julia that's excellent news. i strongly urge you guys and the rest of the CCGB team to look at raising the minimum health testing requirements. Now is the time to do it at the start of the club before breeders apply. 

All, I for one can vouch that having your gorgeous and seemingly healthy dog be faced with a painful, critical or life threatening condition is the most horrendous experience and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Anything that we as a collective on this forum or any of the clubs can do to push the importance of health testing has to be good. This post is not about breeder politics or competition but the health and welfare of our precious dogs and future puppies which should be important to every single person on this forum. Please get behind this and support it.


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

Well said Julia ,totally agree dx


----------



## mandym (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree,i think the CCGB team should seriously consider adding to the health test required,it can only do good by encouraging the best breeders to join,id rather that than a whole load of irresponsible ones xxx


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Jukee Doodles said:


> Well as I see it in an idealistic world the CCGB could lay down the law and every breeder would have to happily comply, simple! If only life were so easy.
> 
> The CCGB have stuck their neck out already with the PRA DNA test being mandatory and feel comfortable to do so because the test is pretty conclusive that if one parent is DNA clear then the worst any offspring will be is a carrier and carriers do not get the eye disease.
> 
> ...


I am not singling you out as breeders  but you are on here, answering questions and heavily involved in the club so in short you have quite a good opportunity to lead the way. 

If you like I will get some more batterries for my wand and you are welcome to borrow it (it is pink and plays a nice tune )!


----------



## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

> I have to be honest, I don't think insisting on PRA is sticking your neck out, I think this is the bare minimum standard EVERY breeder should be doing. To have the club's stamp of approval I think the standard should be set higher.


The CCGB can only educate people who are in class. If breeders don't sign-up because the bar is set at a height that frightens them, then we will have no influence, irrelevant how far JD goes to to be an example. 
Can I put a suggestion out to all of you who care? How about you guys canvassing breeders that you may or may not know personally, to find out what would the highest health testing bar be, where they would still be prepared to sign-up? Call it market research. You guys have a real chance here to make a real difference. 



> I don't see why the puppy prices would be driven higher than the £800 to £900 they already are? I do appreciate that there are more costs involved than the ones I mentioned earlier however I really don't think that £500 worth of tests on a bitch that could potentially have four litters is alot to invest. If say you carried out all the tests on your girls but kept the price the same then buyers would question why others weren't doing the same.


That's exactly what we intend to do at JD. We have already started and plan do them all over the next few months. Then we will cap our prices at £900 again we can be used to quiz other breeders who go to £1200 and beyond, as some already do.



> Yes, maybe...but those who really care about the breed will do it with the tests and maybe the others will not bother breeding at all because it might just make them think they would struggle to sell their puppies without health tests?


To start with they will still breed, just sell the puppies cheap and there will always be a market for anything cheap....sadly!



> No, because you have limits on how many you would breed (morally/legally) and there is no rule that says you have to meet the demand!


The CCGB can only regulate the number of litters that they will register and issue papers for, for any one breeder. All puppies need to be microchipped and the number is printed on the certificate. It then comes down to the breeders integrity not to produce extra litters of puppies outside that and buyers awareness and education not to buy these extra pups. The only power CCGB has is to exclude a breeder member that exhibits such practice.
We at JD cannot meet the demand for our pups and have forward orders now to August '12. However we are not going to increase in size because we have found a level that we are comfortable with that we can manage and we can sleep at night knowing that we can do the best for the dogs that we have. Others don't worry and may not have a problem sleeping at night regardless of the practices they perform.



> Better to be dammed for doing your best than not bothering!


 We do get dammed, but we are doing our best and we certainly are bothering.




> Pedigrees have good and bad breeders however there are good ones that do ALL of the relevent tests...I have yet to see one Cockapoo breeder who considers all hereditary conditions.



That's true, there's good and bad in all aspect of life. It will take us some months to test all of our breeding dogs as it will be a costly exercise, so hopefully in 2012 you will be able to say "Well there is one Cockapoo breeder who does all of the health tests." or way better "Yes I do know a few Cockapoo breeders that do all of the health tests." Here's hoping.




> Actually Julia I do have a magic wand but the batterries have run out ! (It was Lizzies! ) I also have a Wonder Woman outfit but sadly I have grown out of that!


 I initially wondered what type of magic wand you were referring to........phew it's was Lizzies I can do pink.

Julia


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

:laugh::laugh: Definitely the Disney Princess variety!  

I think if you asked breeders what they would be willing to do as a minimum it would be set low by most otherwise they would already be upping their testing. I think what may drive change is the puppy buying public, they just need some good advice and a few breeders to start setting the standard and hopefully other breeders will follow. 

We are already starting to change things by talking about these issues on forums and starting clubs...it is all progress.


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

As a puppy buyer I would like good health testing done by a breeder... 

As an owner I would like to have the healthiest pet possible... 

And as a possible breeder I would only breed the best dogs with the required health testing carried out... 

Do it well or don’t do it at all ... for the sake of the puppies ... I guess that’s how I see it 

Health and care is so important for any new litter ... and all good breeders will have this covered prior to breeding


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Quite right JoJo.  x


----------



## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

JoJo said:


> As a puppy buyer I would like good health testing done by a breeder...
> 
> As an owner I would like to have the healthiest pet possible...
> 
> ...


You're right but you are already 'the converted'. Our mission is to try any convert as many other breeders and buyer as we can.

J xx


----------



## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

Personally if i were looking now and i saw a cockapoo breeders website that stated they did all these extra health checks thats the one i'd go for and im sure alot of other new wanna be owners would think the same why.

Your right there are some breeders out there that will sell their pups at knock down prices and there are always going to be the few that will buy from them,that will sadly never change.


----------



## mum2bobs (Jun 23, 2010)

jeez, I seem to have opened a can of worms with my comment!:behindsofa:

Maybe we should all just look at pics of sezra in her Wonder Woman outfit and chill


----------



## Jon Buoy (Sep 3, 2011)

DONNA said:


> Personally if i were looking now and i saw a cockapoo breeders website that stated they did all these extra health checks thats the one i'd go for


Completely agree - Speaking as a prospective owner, I did as much research as I could possibly do, both on-line and by speaking to existing owners. In my mind, if a breeder has carried out as many checks as possible this is obviously going to reduce the risk of future problems. 

A breeder's attention to detail was one of the major factors when choosing a source for the new addition to our family.


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

mum2bobs said:


> jeez, I seem to have opened a can of worms with my comment!:behindsofa:
> 
> Maybe we should all just look at pics of sezra in her Wonder Woman outfit and chill


hoto: :undwech:

No worms here and sadly no photographic evidence of the Wonder Woman outfit! It is an original 70's dressing up outfit that was mine and now the kids laugh at! I showed Annabel Wonder Woman on Youtube...she wasn't impressed...I guess you would have to have grown up with this wonderful tv  ! 

Maybe I need to buy a new one for the Cockapoo Olympics dressing up contest?? hno:


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

DONNA said:


> That was a question not a statement


Apologies Donna - I thought it was a statement rather than a question.

I agree that the purpose of all the clubs and groups should be to set as high a standard as possible and to educate people as to the tests that should be done. I think the bar should be set at the highest level so only the very best of breeders are allowed to use the club membership as a selling point and hopefully as the standards start to rise the vast majority of breeders will start to come on board as it will be what is demanded by puppy buyers.

Mostly the information needs to be out there in the world - real and cyber - for potential puppy buyers to be able to read and get informed before they buy there pup. Membership of a club implies some sort of standard and right at the outset is I think the very best time to set the bar high rather than tolerate the current low level - if not there will be very many more dogs like Molly out there. Remember my vet is in normal general practice (and in fact is mostly retired and only works half a day a week) and he told me he is seeing increasing numbers of all types of poodle crosses with this type of problem.

If I was ever to buy a pup (unlikely as there are unfortunately vast quantities of 2nd hand dogs looking for good homes) I would look for a breeder doing all possible health tests for that breed/cross and would expect to wait for a pup and pay a decent price for it.


----------



## mum2bobs (Jun 23, 2010)

Sezra said:


> hoto: :undwech:
> 
> No worms here and sadly no photographic evidence of the Wonder Woman outfit! It is an original 70's dressing up outfit that was mine and now the kids laugh at! I showed Annabel Wonder Woman on Youtube...she wasn't impressed...I guess you would have to have grown up with this wonderful tv  !
> 
> Maybe I need to buy a new one for the Cockapoo Olympics dressing up contest?? hno:


Oh thats a definate lol


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

*As some-one whom deals with questions from people who want to know/understand why cockapoos are so expensive and do not have more health tests than the PRA on the poodle studs- I can see where they are coming from- Can anyone tell me how they would answer????

For example one of these people whom is interested in the above, breeds KC registered show cockers and tests them for CPRA - GPRA- FN and Glaucoma and all her dogs are clear and she charges £700.

So I can understand why they challenge people whom own crosses that we do not demand/expect the same from our breeders.*


----------

