# First serious growl



## Meredith

Hi all,

I gave Nado and River a chewbone each. I thought they'd happily each chew their own bone. I'm sure you're all laughing at me as you read this. Yup, didn't work out so well. Nado (aprox 1 yr old) wanted both bones so stalked River (12 week old) until he got the opportunity to snatch it when I wasn't looking and proceeded to take them both to Rivers bed. He then sat in her bed growling at her if she came near. Then he started leaving the bed with the bones in them waiting for her to make a move for them so he could chase her away.

I had enough of it and went to take the bones and he snatched one up and when I tried to take it from him he gave the most serious growl I've ever heard and snapped at me. I was so shocked. I flipped him over and held him down until he was cowering from me and I took the bone but it frightened me. Should I just never give them bones anymore? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!


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## fairlie

Meredith said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> 
> I had enough of it and went to take the bones
> Thanks!


I think here is where you went wrong. I always read leave them to work these things out on their own as much as it bothers you. Others might disagree and say no more bones.


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## Meredith

fairlie said:


> I think here is where you went wrong. I always read leave them to work these things out on their own as much as it bothers you. Others might disagree and say no more bones.


I could see that but I guess what was most bothersome to me was that he growled at me like that. I've only ever owned labs before so maybe this is just part of adjusting to a new breed but of the 3 labs I've owned in my life they've never growled at me. I swear you could torture those guys and it wouldn't have occurred to them that they could growl at me. (i'm sure there are lots of nasty labs out there but I'm just sharing my experience) He gave a serious growl and did he ever seem close to actually biting me. I suppose if he intended to bite me that's what he would have done but I really don't like him thinking he can do that in any situation... ever.


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## Cat 53

I find with my two, that Phoebe gobbles hers down whilst Max lies guarding his. He will then push it towards her and when she goes to take it he growls at her. This goes on until I get fed up. I then distract them both with a toy or something. Put them outside and then go and get the bone! Not quite sure what Max is playing at, but he is missing out on the treats! Silly boy!


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## Meredith

Cat 53 said:


> I find with my two, that Phoebe gobbles hers down whilst Max lies guarding his. He will then push it towards her and when she goes to take it he growls at her. This goes on until I get fed up. I then distract them both with a toy or something. Put them outside and then go and get the bone! Not quite sure what Max is playing at, but he is missing out on the treats! Silly boy!


It's like he's taunting her right. That's totally what Nado is doing. He'd rather taunt her then just eat it. Bizarre behavior although I suppose I do like to do that to my husband with chocolate.. 

As strange as it is though I'd be ok letting them work it out if I knew I could take it from him without a fight. I'm not sure that's a realistic goal though.


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## Cat 53

The only reason I intervene is because Max eventually hides it......and Phoebe finds it, then she gets two treats and fat! Or she comes to me for a cuddle, so he abandons it for a cuddle too, whereupon she leaps off and snaffles it. Again, she will get fat.


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## Lexi&Beemer

I'm a minority I think on here but if either get possessive or resource guard, the treat gets taken away. In the beginning I did this with bully sticks but now I get them by the case so it doesn't seem as high value as a meaty bone. They now will trade their bullies, tease each other, but not the growly thing. In most cases I let them sort it out. But some things I intervene. And growl at me means the treat taken away and an exceptionally long lecture with me frowning. 


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## Datun Walnut

Lexi&Beemer said:


> I'm a minority I think on here but if either get possessive or resource guard, the treat gets taken away. In the beginning I did this with bully sticks but now I get them by the case so it doesn't seem as high value as a meaty bone. They now will trade their bullies, tease each other, but not the growly thing. In most cases I let them sort it out. But some things I intervene. And growl at me means the treat taken away and an exceptionally long lecture with me frowning.


I think you're right. It sends the message: 'don't think you're the pack leader of this house buddy'. I know people disagree with that but I read that dogs find jockeying for position in a pack is stressful and once they know their postion, they are happier.


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## 2ndhandgal

Molly came to me with a history of serious resource guarding and at that point would have bitten if pushed. It is a not uncommon trait among spaniels and needs care and understanding to prevent escalation.

From Nado's point of view he was given an excellent treat and saw the opportunity to get the one you had given the pup too so did. From that point they were his and he was telling her they were hers and defending prized possessions which were now HIS. At this point you decided to intervene and wanted to take away HIS prized possessions he was already guarding. Dogs use lots of body language to show their intentions so he probably went very still when you came close to warn you and may have shown other signs he was intending to defend his possessions but from his point of view you rudely ignored these warnings so he had no choice but to growl, you ignored that too so he had to raise his warning to a snap. You took the items from him and then further to this you punished him - when from his point of view he had really done nothing wrong. All of this will make him more insecure when he has possessions and most resource guarding come from insecurity so you have increased the likelihood that he will guard more.

To resolve Mollys issues I had to teach her I was no threat to her possessions and if she had something I wanted back I would swap nicely or distract her with something fun or nice while I retrieved the item. As she has relaxed her guarding has reduced although it is still something which will occasionally rear its head if she is stressed and she is far more likely to guard from other dogs than humans these days. I can also remove things from her if I need to without this and took a bone out of her mouth with no growling a few weeks ago.

If I do have to physically remove something from her which she is guarding it adds to her stress hugely and I will see an effect on her behaviour for days as she needs to come down from how stressed it has made her. If we resolve a guarding incident nicely she relaxes immediately and it causes no further hassle.

Her last major guarding was when I had been out and came back to find she had somehow got a full box of biscuits which she was trying to open. She was very wide eyed and stressed at that point and if I went near hunched over the box watching me. Chance was very happy to be removed from the room so I could sort Molly out and I ignored her and biscuit box and got her physio stuff out and invited her to come and play with that instead. Her first moves away were stressy and keeping an eye on HER biscuits but after a few minutes playing she relaxed and was happy at that point to move away from them totally and I could then pick them up. Chance could join us then too and it was all dealt with quietly with no fuss and no escalation of stress on either side.

With Nado you now need to rebuild his trust in you, much as you need to rebuild yours in him. I would say no more bones for now and if he has something nice he is chewing wander over and give him an extra treat as well now and then so her can learn you are no threat. Teach him the game of swapping one thing for another so he becomes happy to let you have things he has.


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## Marzi

Brilliant advice from 2ndhandgirl.

Distraction/swapping is always better than confrontation, and safer too. My dogs don't run from me if they have something they shouldn't as they have never been chased by me - in fact they are much more likely to bring things to me to show what they have and see whether I'm interested in trading.

Food treats - bones, chews, stolen boxes of biscuits (!) are always the most difficult to 
trade away as they have such high value. However mine would never miss the opportunity to go for a walk so if I pick up the leads they'll come. I also keep a smelly jar of dried fish, which is the bingo treat for mine, not yet found anything that they would not trade for a fish...

With Nando and River I'd be inclined to separate them before giving any long lasting treat and taking left over bits of treat away at the end of the session. Nando might finish his, River may fall asleep before the end.

I am not a fan of putting dogs on their backs in a forced submission and would advise against doing this.


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## Meredith

2ndhandgal said:


> Molly came to me with a history of serious resource guarding and at that point would have bitten if pushed. It is a not uncommon trait among spaniels and needs care and understanding to prevent escalation.
> 
> From Nado's point of view he was given an excellent treat and saw the opportunity to get the one you had given the pup too so did. From that point they were his and he was telling her they were hers and defending prized possessions which were now HIS. At this point you decided to intervene and wanted to take away HIS prized possessions he was already guarding. Dogs use lots of body language to show their intentions so he probably went very still when you came close to warn you and may have shown other signs he was intending to defend his possessions but from his point of view you rudely ignored these warnings so he had no choice but to growl, you ignored that too so he had to raise his warning to a snap. You took the items from him and then further to this you punished him - when from his point of view he had really done nothing wrong. All of this will make him more insecure when he has possessions and most resource guarding come from insecurity so you have increased the likelihood that he will guard more.
> 
> To resolve Mollys issues I had to teach her I was no threat to her possessions and if she had something I wanted back I would swap nicely or distract her with something fun or nice while I retrieved the item. As she has relaxed her guarding has reduced although it is still something which will occasionally rear its head if she is stressed and she is far more likely to guard from other dogs than humans these days. I can also remove things from her if I need to without this and took a bone out of her mouth with no growling a few weeks ago.
> 
> If I do have to physically remove something from her which she is guarding it adds to her stress hugely and I will see an effect on her behaviour for days as she needs to come down from how stressed it has made her. If we resolve a guarding incident nicely she relaxes immediately and it causes no further hassle.
> 
> Her last major guarding was when I had been out and came back to find she had somehow got a full box of biscuits which she was trying to open. She was very wide eyed and stressed at that point and if I went near hunched over the box watching me. Chance was very happy to be removed from the room so I could sort Molly out and I ignored her and biscuit box and got her physio stuff out and invited her to come and play with that instead. Her first moves away were stressy and keeping an eye on HER biscuits but after a few minutes playing she relaxed and was happy at that point to move away from them totally and I could then pick them up. Chance could join us then too and it was all dealt with quietly with no fuss and no escalation of stress on either side.
> 
> With Nado you now need to rebuild his trust in you, much as you need to rebuild yours in him. I would say no more bones for now and if he has something nice he is chewing wander over and give him an extra treat as well now and then so her can learn you are no threat. Teach him the game of swapping one thing for another so he becomes happy to let you have things he has.


Thank you. This is very helpful. He did show extreme stress and wouldn't even look at me anymore the rest of the night. Today he's starting to act like himself. I'd only ever heard the forced submission as a way to deal with this behavior. I really appreciate your explanation of a better way to deal with this and will definately do what you suggested.


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## fairlie

Well said as always Marzi, and 2ndhand that was the best explanation of how to deal with resource guarding I have ever come across. I love that you are so intuitive and attentive to how your dogs experience things.


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## 2ndhandgal

It is very easy to do the wrong thing in the heat of the moment and glad to hear he is more back his normal self today.

Just had a dig around for some photos - this is Molly with her stolen biscuits but she was too intent trying to get into the box to look at me 










This is a better picture with something else she had stolen and shows a little more her intention at this point to guard the slipper. Her expression is much harder than her normal look. If I had gone closer she would probably have lowered her head over the slipper and closer still and I may have been warned with a growl 










Thanks Fairlie - I have been fortunate to have some good teachers both canine and human


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## caz3

Hi yeh great advice from 2ndhandgirl like you I have always had labs and never had experience with this either until my first cockapoo when I went to take a chew from him (at my friends and it was her older dogs who wasnt bothered about it) because he was only about 10wks and felt he was too young for it he nearly took my finger off!!!I got a fright , it totally took me by surprise but hey ho a few weeks of swapping treats and chews etc he is now fine so good luck xxx


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## Meredith

Someone just shared this article with me about the subject. Very interesting http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html


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## 2ndhandgal

That is an excellent article 

Very much how I feel about living with my two - I expect some reasonable manners from them and in return I try to consider them with the decisions I make about what we are doing, so good food, regular exercise and training (which they both very much enjoy) and if they do something considered "wrong" I try to work out why they have behaved that way and treat the root cause rather than tell them off


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## fairlie

Great article. Some of the comments on the article seem a little over the top to me. I think I fall a little to the right of the "positive reinforcement only" camp insofar as I have trained several easy dogs I could do this with, and several "stronger" character dogs that I have needed to ultimately use a harsh verbal correction for unwanted behaviour, for example house training Rufus, and even a mild physical correction for leash training Rufus. In my defense those corrections came after many, many days and weeks of trying all the by the book positive reinforcement methods.

I also do not see him as my equal. I do not dominate him and he sleeps in my bed but I am the leader and he must follow me not vice versa. I can't help but wonder if the people who advocate only positive methods have ever trained a really strong willed dog?


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## 2ndhandgal

In all honesty it was probably taking on a dog you would term stronger character that led me to the positive reinforcement camp and persuaded me it was the correct place certainly for me and my dogs. I took on a three year old RSPCA cruelty case rescue dog who was totally untrained and unsocialised and went totally mad at almost anything from dogs, thru to old ladies several of whom he scared the living daylights out of in the early days despite him always being on the lead and nowhere near them. 

I had made a certain amount of progress with him training wise but had reached a point where we could not get any further so went to see a very well respected trainer who helped me learn to read him, understand the reason for his behaviour and solve the root causes. We were then able to resolve the majority of his issues to the extent that whilst he was never going to seek out the company of other people he would happily be around them and other dogs. He went on to get his KC good citizen bronze and silver awards and be one of the senior members of our training clubs demo team where we did demos at local schools and fetes. 

I have also helped a friend who used to foster for a collie rescue and one of her more memorable successes was a lovely collie girl who went to a home where in the course of one week they attempted to show her who was boss with the result she bit them and was returned as dangerous  she was very scared but had also now learned she could use her teeth to get people to back off so took six months to get her back to a state where she could be rehomed. Thankfully the right home for her came up and she went to be a successful agility dog who has even been to Crufts competing in the junior competition with a youngster who was a friend of her owner. All done with positive methods - any further attempt to use physical correction with her would almost certainly have resulted in bites and pts.

As well as my own dogs and those of friends, both fostered and owned I have ran flyball classes and puppy classes with a friend for several years.

Personally I love leash training difficult dogs  no physical correction and my favourite part of puppy training. I also spent three weeks teaching a three year old 40kg lab who dragged his owner down the street on a halti headcollar how to walk nicely on his collar with the headcollar just there as security. Three weeks of one 30 minute walk a day and I was able to hand him back and show his owner how to walk him. 

As for Molly - think I had better introduce her properly on her own thread


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## fairlie

Wow, ok I am convinced, now jump on a plane and come and teach Rufus to walk nicely on a leash. As a puppy I started with no forward movement until he wasn't pulling and a treat when it was slack and a "lets go". From there we went to change direction when he pulled and a treat when leash was slack and back the direction he wanted to go, then to an almost constant "look at me, heel" position with treats. All were exhausting and each lasted several weeks. Still he pulled. Finally in frustration I gave a sharp yank and I swear he looked at me as if to say "why didn't you tell me not to pull earlier?" He was very good after that one correction but now that we almost never walk on leash he is starting to lose his training again.


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## caz3

Always great to hear of rescue dogs gettin a second chance hats off to u!!!!!! lovely story xxxx


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## 2ndhandgal

fairlie said:


> Wow, ok I am convinced, now jump on a plane and come and teach Rufus to walk nicely on a leash. As a puppy I started with no forward movement until he wasn't pulling and a treat when it was slack and a "lets go". From there we went to change direction when he pulled and a treat when leash was slack and back the direction he wanted to go, then to an almost constant "look at me, heel" position with treats. All were exhausting and each lasted several weeks. Still he pulled. Finally in frustration I gave a sharp yank and I swear he looked at me as if to say "why didn't you tell me not to pull earlier?" He was very good after that one correction but now that we almost never walk on leash he is starting to lose his training again.


I would love to Fairlie - you live in what looks like a stunning part of a lovely country 

Try this with Rufus - it is ideal if he does not go on lead much as you can just do short practice sessions and whilst it sounds like a lot of work and treats you can probably use his dinner and it soon builds up - and doing it this way the dog really understands what you want.

http://www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/LLW.pdf


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## Lottierachel

2ndhandgal said:


> I would love to Fairlie - you live in what looks like a stunning part of a lovely country
> 
> Try this with Rufus - it is ideal if he does not go on lead much as you can just do short practice sessions and whilst it sounds like a lot of work and treats you can probably use his dinner and it soon builds up - and doing it this way the dog really understands what you want.
> 
> http://www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/LLW.pdf


Thanks for that article - I love clicker training so might give it a go  when she is calm, or can tell that we're just going for a pavement walk, or if she's had her run around the field, Tilly walks really nicely. Slightly in front of me but with a slack lead. When she's excited, however, she totally loses all focus and will pull to get to where she wants e.g. If we walk to the park (she knows the route, and she knows her tennis ball will come out when we get there!)

Do you think I could get her to walk nicely in all situations? Even when she's super excited? My baby is due in October and I want to be 100% sure she will walk nicely with the pram all the time.


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## fairlie

Thanks 2nhand. I wish I'd had that when he was a puppy. It sounds very much like what I did except for the counting steps bit. I see that that makes it systematic. Do you recall how and when to ease off on the marks and rewards?


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## 2ndhandgal

I used this over the winter to smarten my pairs lead walking up a bit as Chance was getting a bit teenagery and Molly will lapse if she thinks she can 

I started in low distraction areas and then moved to higher distraction areas and if I was somewhere I knew they would find difficult I cut the number I started at by half, so if we were up to 80 steps somewhere normal I would start at 40 steps somewhere different, or even 20 if they were really struggling in that area so they got it right.

For stuff like the ultra exciting park when treats just won't cut it we also used the "whoops you are pulling we will turn and go the other way until you are walking nicely method" our worst ever was their favourite walk where we park quite close and I had been guilty of letting them pull to get to the field. The first day it probably took us over 5 minutes to go what should have taken less than 30 seconds (and an elderly couple coming the other way were very amused) but generally now they just need the occasional reminder that yes I do still want them to walk nicely.

I was a bit hit and miss with the training Fairlie so sometimes walked and counted as I should, sometimes totally forgot and just threw them rewards now and then and sometimes just walked them but made them come back if they did pull but it changed both of their attitudes and responsiveness to me for the better and that has continued.

I think part of the beauty of the method is that it does naturally ease off on the rewards anyway and by the time you are rewarding every 150 steps it is already pretty infrequent anyway. I take treats now if we go somewhere super exciting, like today we went to a country show so I took treats but to be honest I found they both walked pretty nicely anyway as it is pretty much habit now I think.


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