# Injury from day care



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Some of you may have read my previous post on the doggy day care place I booked for my puppy today.

Well, today he came back with an injury/wound near his eye  I have attached a picture. Our usual daycare person is on holiday for 2 weeks so we had to go with a different company. I was nervous as he was leaving the house as they put a slip lead on him but now he's come home with this I just don't know what to think?! 

Should I be worried. He's NEVER had an injury before from daycare and he normally plays quite gently for a puppy. 

X


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Oops sorry-the picture posted upside down! Doh!


----------



## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I would definitely be concerned. All good daycare facilities will monitor interactions when new/different dogs are introduced to the daycare pack. What did they say, how did it happen? Did they offer an explanation? The dogs should be monitored at ALL times no matter how well they get on. 

If this happened in the daycare my girls go to, the daycare owner would be absolutely distraught!! I know you cannot prevent all incidents but at the least I would expect an explanation and reassurance that they would investigate it to assess how they can improve their practice.


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Well, I only noticed it when I got him home so emailed them straight away (as they were closed by this time). The company-(Halo dogs) are quite large and each group of dogs are assigned a carer. The manager said that he didn't know what happened as my puppy was not being looked after by him. He wrote back reassuring me that all new puppies are introduced carefully and assured me there have never been any fights. He goes on to say that from the picture it looks as if it could have been caused by a nail being caught from puppy play. I AM NOT happy with this. I can't wait until our usual daycare lady Nicole comes back from holiday! I'm seriously considering taking leave as I can't possibly send him back there! Oh what a horrible day!


----------



## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Yogi bear said:


> Well, I only noticed it when I got him home so emailed them straight away (as they were closed by this time). The company-(Halo dogs) are quite large and each group of dogs are assigned a carer. The manager said that he didn't know what happened as my puppy was not being looked after by him. He wrote back reassuring me that all new puppies are introduced carefully and assured me there have never been any fights. He goes on to say that from the picture it looks as if it could have been caused by a nail being caught from puppy play. I AM NOT happy with this. I can't wait until our usual daycare lady Nicole comes back from holiday! I'm seriously considering taking leave as I can't possibly send him back there! Oh what a horrible day!


What you need is to find out who was caring for the group of dogs yours was in. They would have been with the dogs at all times (surely?) and should know exactly what happened and how. How can a manager possibly know from a photo what caused the injury. Yes I understand accidents can happen during play but they need to do more to reassure you it won't happen again or at the least the dogs won't be left unattended. The introduction period happens over a series of days in our daycare, in order to fully asses who gets on with who, though ours is very small! 

If they can provide a realistic explanation and admit the dogs weren't always monitored and that they will improve the monitoring then I would be happy to continue, but I would insist on that reassurance.


----------



## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I looked at the website and thought they looked impressive but maybe it is just too big? I would have thought he would have yelped when it happened and that they should have checked him over and made a note of injury's to explain to you (or maybe because I am a childminder I would just expect similar care!), It may have just been an unfortunate first day of course but I know I would feel exactly the same way as you. Good luck.


----------



## Fiver (Nov 26, 2011)

Ditto to everything Ruth said.
If they haven't given you an explanation ask them what's happened. It's very close to his eye, poor little chap.
I think doggie day care should be run like a childrens nursery...records kept for any injuries plus non eating/eating etc.

Val


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Exactly, surely someone should have been with him at all times! And why did they not notice? And if they did, why did they not tell me! I hate to think what could have happened today  I sometimes wish I could put a camera on him! I've emailed him again and will call them in the morning.

I can't wait until Nicole gets back, she looks after him so well in her home and only has 5dogs max at a time. The only reason I went with Halo dogs was because she's on holiday and their website advertised the centre as a country retreat! My poor boy. I feel so bad.


----------



## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Don't feel bad, you weren't to know and accidents do happen. The important thing when an accident happens is the action taken... I would need to know all the details and how it came to happen, why they didn't know, where they record accidents and how they learn from them. 

Every accident or incident is a learning opportunity, an opportunity to make changes and improvements. 

Sorry if I sound OTT but I think when you are trusting someone and paying for a service the least they can do is offer a valid explanation.


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Yes I completely agree and no, you don't sound OTT. Accidents do happen and what they/I/we learn from them is the most important. I'm just not prepared for it to happen to my pup again if I can help it. I've decided to take little Seymour to work with me tomorrow (well it is Friday-hopefully they'll be a bit more 'chilled') until I find an alternative daycare for him next week!


----------



## Woo (Oct 5, 2011)

So sorry to hear what happened to Seymour. It's lucky he can go to work with you tomorrow I don't blame you for not sending him back. Hope his wound heals quickly.


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

So sorry your puppy came home injured! There's me saying not to worry!!!
The fact the manager doesn't know what happened just isn't good enough. Yes accidents happen but they should know about them and inform you of anything that happens. 
Sadly late facilities can be hectic and if there aren't enough staff then supervision can be minimal. You aren't happy so dont send him back there. You will worry all day long. Much better to take a day off if you can? Or ask a neighbour/ friend to go and check on him and let him out?


----------



## sugerlump (Oct 6, 2012)

well first of all if the puppy's were being watched they would have known about the injury.and would of told you about it when you came to pick up your puppy. now aether they were not being watched .OR they tried to slip it by you and at aether case i would have some ones a** you don't put you puppy there to get beat -up, and your paying good money there so they will be safe . i would positively get some answers..and another fact was the wound cared for .was it wash out and sanitized.a lot of answers you need to get


----------



## AliAlfie (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi Yogi Bear, I have been thinking about you and Seymour, and wondering if you managed to get anywhere with answers from the doggy daycare centre?

I hope he is ok and the eye hasn't caused him too much bother.


----------



## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

Whenever carers (for children or animals) become defensive that is a red flag for no good. The people at the first daycare Lexi and Beemer brushes off my concerns that something was going on and seemed to not appreciate me wanting to see them in the setting. The change in their behavior, temperament, and personality after changing daycares was profound. I think whenever you choose to take responsibility of someone else's loved ones it behooves you to take extra care and openness to sharing information. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


----------



## redecoffee (Dec 3, 2012)

Find another daycare immediately. If the people working there are nervous about dogs even pulling on the lead (without the owner informing them that this is an issue) but don't monitor the dogs properly enough to give an explanation to an injury - sounds to me like they don't actually spend the time with the dogs.


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Well, the 'career' who was meant to be looking after him called me on the morning of the following day. I tried to keep my calm but when he said he didn't even realise that Seymour got an injury I seriously got very worried. He said he didn't see it because Seymour is so hairy! Apparently he never yelped, but I know my boy and I know he would have. My only conclusion was that he was just too busy to even notice. 

We will never go back there. I've decided to bring my boy to work with me until our usual daycare lady is back from her holiday. (I'm very lucky and have such an understanding boss!). Phew! Thank you to everyone on ILMC for all your support. His eye is getting better now and he's back to his waggy self


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

MissCupcake said:


> Nooooo Seymour! Hope you make a fully recovery, evil people! Are you the gorgeous fluffy boy off of facebook!? We all love your pictures!! x


Aww thank you Beth, thats very kind of you. Seymour is the fluffy ginger pup on Facebook. I'm really glad you enjoyed looking at his pictures. Xx


----------



## AliAlfie (Jul 29, 2013)

What a disgraceful response, I'm so glad you can take him to work with you until normal service resumes. I'm sure Seymour is too, after all, a trip to the doggy-bakery for lunch has got to be a winner!  
A big thumbs up for your boss too, there aren't many out there who would be up for having a dog come into work, sounds like a keeper.


----------



## flounder_1 (May 12, 2011)

Fiver said:


> Ditto to everything Ruth said.
> If they haven't given you an explanation ask them what's happened. It's very close to his eye, poor little chap.
> I think doggie day care should be run like a childrens nursery...records kept for any injuries plus non eating/eating etc.
> 
> Val


I couldn't agree more Val. I used to be the manager of a 100 place day nursery so know all too well the policies and procedures necessary. And funnily enough I recently visited a doggy daycare centre that also does grooming for Lolly to get groomed (first visit to that one). I came away with flashbacks of my old working life and was horrified at the way this very professional seeming outfit ran the place. I emailed the owner straight away outlining my concerns but never received a reply. Needless to say we won't be returning even for a groom!


----------



## Halo Dogs (Sep 27, 2013)

Dear Yogi Bear

I was pleased to learn via this forum that Seymour is recovering well

I was also extremely saddened to read the chain of comments and the tone of the content.

I am Justin Kumaran, I started Halo Dogs, or The Dog House as it was originally called back in 2009, after leaving my previous career as not only a medic, but also a Manager for the London Ambulance Service, a post I held with pride for nearly 15yrs since leaving college. During the later part of my career I became frustrated helping people around London such as drug pushers, drink drivers and worse and witnessed first hand the decline in care for dogs around London at the same time. Everybody had a staffie who was both aggressive and misunderstood. I embarked on an amazing journey to better understand dogs and help them as I had humans for so long. 

In between my shifts in the NHS, I also worked at Battersea Dogs & Cats Home as often as I could, which included working days at Battersea, nights in the NHS and back to Battersea, often grabbing a few minutes sleep under desks where I could. 

I became concerned whilst working at Battersea that we were struggling to rehome dogs to people in London because, being London, everybody nowadays has to work, meaning dogs couldnt be rehomed to people with long leaving hours..

Hence the creation of Halo Dogs. Halo Dogs has never been a money making venture, in fact, to this day I have never taken a salary, nor have I had even a single day off in nearly 5 years. We use the income from our day care and training to fund our rescue work and support other rescue & rehoming charities both here and internationally.

As this is not a business to make money (which you will see from our public accounts) we have no targets to hit, we dont advertise our services other than a website and Facebook page yet have grown into the largest day care centre in the world (according to Wikipedia which is both humbling and a big responsibility in equal measure.

We take what we do very seriously indeed, applying both my experience of dogs which is highly recognised to the point of giving talks and training veterinary staff in dog behaviour and psychology, managing very dangerous breeds with extreme problems coupled with my management skills of running an emergency service, hundreds of staff, millions of £s in budgets and all that goes with that role including managing major incidents.

At Halo Dogs we have a staff to dog ratio of 1 - 6. The dogs are never, ever, ever left unattended, ever... My team are trained and experienced and either qualified or working toward qualification as dog behaviourists or trainers. We do keep an incident book, in the office and have an incident rate of 4-6 incidents a year. Caring for somewhere between 15,000 - 20,000 dogs a year, this gives an incident rate of between 0.02% and 0.5%, which whilst I would prefer this to be 0, I have to accept dogs, as children at school, will pick up knocks and scrapes along the way. We havent had to break up a fight here for over 3 years, which is quite an achievement and testament to our careful screening, selection and introduction process.

We care for both little and large










And everything inbetween










In response to your earlier post (Worried Mummy) We use slip leads for safety purposes, we have found many dogs whose collars are too loose and easy to slip out of, so by using our own leads, this ensures the dog is safe and cannot slip a collar, it also means the big guy (Lennie) in the photo above wont be going home with a pink diamante lead because we got 60 leads mixed up.

I am honestly sincerely sorry your impression of Halo Dogs was not as expected. Seymour is the first dog to ever pick up an injury on his first day of school. I also did not mean to diagnose what had caused the injury in the photo you sent over as it was too blurry and difficult to see, but to try and offer an alternative to a common perception that it must have been caused by a fight, as dogs teeth leave puncture wounds and usually more than one.

I actioned and replied to your email in less than 15 minutes of you alerting me to his eye via email, and also got Viktor to contact you the following morning and I too followed up with an email which, now understandably received no response. Can I just point out in the photo you sent of the injury, his hair is parted to see the small wound, whereas in the picture we took of him below, his right eye is covered by fur, which would make the injury extremely difficult for us to see had he bumped into equipment for example in his new environment on a 540acre farm, with 59 other dogs to play with in a high energy environment.










I am as annoyed that we can not provide an explanation as you are, I understand it is an important part of the process to be able to fill in the blanks, but equally I wont just make something up because it makes an injury easier to dismiss. As a licensed operation, something that is a legal requirement for all day care centre's, (yet very few are), we are obliged by legislation, to report any serious and untoward incidents and comply with this requirement fully, which we do.

We are anything but a shady operation which closes ranks if something goes wrong, we are open, honest, reliable, we invite every new potential dog and owner down first to be shown our operation in real time, we have children of our customers here for work experience, we even had our local MP down a couple of weeks ago. Our primary Vet is Charlotte Searle from Village Vet in Potters Bar who we have an exceptional relationship with and are also friends with Marc the vet Abraham who has this the following to say about us..










”Just like Halo Dogs I’m also proud to promote responsible pet ownership, improved dog welfare standards, and would like to see an end to the UK’s cruel puppy farming trade.”

I hope this goes some way to redress the balance of the comments made about Halo Dogs and Seymour is back to his good looking self already, and again please accept my sincerest apologies for not living up to our highest standards and your expectations 


Sincerely

Justin K


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Hi Justin, thanks for posting. I am sure Seymour's owner will appreciate the public apology and the openness in your post.


----------



## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Thank you for your apology. As I am sure many other users of ILMC agree with me when I say this, we ADORE our cockapoos! It is my duty as his owner to ensure that he is looked after in the best way possible and when I am not around/at work, it is my duty to ensure that whoever I choose to look after him provides him with a safe and happy environment. What we can all take away and learn from this is paramount to prevent further accidents.

He is a 5 1/2 month old puppy. We are all aware that they can have accidents. It is our job to minimise this risk. Perhaps you may consider the following suggestions:

-a smaller carer to puppy ratio (where puppies are involved)

-give each dog a good fuss/cuddle check them over before returning them to their owners. I noticed his injury just by stroking his head, I did not actively look for it. I do believe you would have noticed the blood around his eye had you done this too. The picture I sent you was after I had sanitised it.

-you mention he would have played with up to 59 other dogs-should puppies be exposed to this many dogs all at once on their first day? I know I would find it very difficult to monitor their actions if this were the case.

-I agree that a dog may slip out of its collar and slip leads are quicker to put on. Why not use the dogs own harness and attach your own clip leads. However, my dog was so excited to see me at the end of the day he was literally standing on his back legs with the full force of his body on the slip lead around his neck. He was coughing and spluttering due to his neck being constrained. This was distressing for me to see. Contrary to common belief, a dogs anatomy is not dissimilar to a humans with the thyroid gland lying in the position over which a collar would lie. Whiplash injuries, airway constriction resulting in coughing and thyroid injuries could be incurred if a slip lead is used on a dog that pulls, let alone a developing puppy.

Like I say, these are only suggestions but I would be grateful if you would consider them.

Many thanks for your apology.


----------



## Lozzie (Apr 1, 2012)

Call me a cynic but what a great way to turn around a negative comment to push your business in a forum with lots of London owners on it... The hyperlinks to their website and Wikipedia and promotional photos were what made me feel uneasy. I'm sure they are a great place but just like not allowing breeders to advertise their pups can we allow businesses to advertise directly? Comments about good (or bad) places to go by members (ie cockapoo owners or owners to be) are fine but this seems to take the biscuit. Mods, what do you think?


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Edited those little additions out


----------



## dmgalley (Aug 19, 2012)

Lozzie said:


> Call me a cynic but what a great way to turn around a negative comment to push your business in a forum with lots of London owners on it... The hyperlinks to their website and Wikipedia and promotional photos were what made me feel uneasy. I'm sure they are a great place but just like not allowing breeders to advertise their pups can we allow businesses to advertise directly? Comments about good (or bad) places to go by members (ie cockapoo owners or owners to be) are fine but this seems to take the biscuit. Mods, what do you think?


I felt the same way but kept quiet cause I love way over here. My first thought as I read it. That's not an apology that's an advertisement. A sincere apology would have served him way better. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

We have to allow people to be able to defend themselves. It would be unfair if we didn't allow Justin to explain. It is an open forum, forums are great but it can be very easy to do serious damage to someone's reputation. I personally think both parties have the right to post there side of the situation. I guess it could be taken as an advertisement but I have edited out the links Which is all can be done.
I personally wouldn't need to go to a website or Wikipedia to decide whether to use this place or not.All the info I would need is in Justin's post, 59 dogs on a pups first day


----------

