# What my vet friend told me about nutrition



## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Vets do make significant money selling dog food. It would definitely effect their bottomline if they stopped selling it. 

Older vets got less nutrition training at school than vets do now. 

Dogs do need 20% less calories after neuter or spay. The reason for changing their food at that point is because just decreasing their intake would make them always feel hungry. A lower calorie food will fill them up and stop the hunger and begging. 

She highly recommended this book.

http://www.completeandbalanced.com/recipebook.html


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## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

thank you for sharing. interesting stuff! x


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Yes that makes good sense.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks, interesting enough. So what does she recommend food wise the after a spay/neuter? How can someone who wants to continue feeding the same food, continue with it without the dog feeling hungry? 

Will look at the link now.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I have always just fed according to body condition to be honest, if dog getting overweight cut back slightly and for thinner add a little more - some dogs are like bottomless pits anyway and always hungry while some are pickier and don't gain weight.

For a serious hunger problem you could always cook some veggies and add to the meal to bulk it out a little.

20% seems like a huge difference in the calories needed though


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

The only thing is, I don't agree with calories being the cause of weight loss or gain. I think it's a glucose/insulin thing ie processed carbs, sugars in the diet, wheat, grain which make us all fat rather than calories in/out. I think a healthy protein rich, carb free diet makes it almost impossible to gain weight. Add in processed carbs especially in the form of wheat and grain, and it's a recipe for disaster as it plays havoc with blood sugar and we all know that sugar is the cause of central obesity which is then the cause of diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Carbs convert to sugar and if not used almost immediately are stored which then turn to fat. Cut out the carbs, this regulates blood sugar, also preventing storage of unused sugar which gets converted, this allows fat burning (both stored from reserves, food we eat) which our bodies and brain prefer to use as fuel. These changes in diet are now being used as treatment plans for those with diabetes and heart disease, and they really work in maintaining a healthy weight and homeostatic balance in the body.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

My friend actually spoke to the current band wagon of "carbs as villans" and grain free dog diets. She said that in the wild wolves eat the stomachs (and thus the contents) of many herbivores (rabbits, mice etc...). She said it is best to test for specific allergies with an allergy testing diet rather than completely cutting out an important food group. It actually makes sense to me. 

I like simple diet advice best. Eat food, not too much, mostly fruits and vegatables. For dogs I think the same applies, but it should read "mostly meat and fish".


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

fairlie said:


> My friend actually spoke to the current band wagon of "carbs as villans" and grain free dog diets. She said that in the wild wolves eat the stomachs (and thus the contents) of many herbivores (rabbits, mice etc...). She said it is best to test for specific allergies with an allergy testing diet rather than completely cutting out an important food group. It actually makes sense to me.
> 
> I like simple diet advice best. Eat food, not too much, mostly fruits and vegatables. For dogs I think the same applies, but it should read "mostly meat and fish".


Yes my two love tripe! Green grassy tripe (yuck)! Good minerals in the leafy greens! I don't think the grain and wheat thing is about allergies when we are talking about weight and blood sugar, although I do think lots of people are intolerant to these things rather than allergic but the allergy/intolerance is a separate issue to how these things affect blood sugar and insulin resistance, although I do think some people's intolerance can affect how their body handles the breakdown of these types of carbohydrate, thus how they utilise them. When I talk about carbs I'm talking about processed stuff, all the stuff that has to be processed to make it edible, anything sugar laden . The best and most complex carbs are the leafy greens, then as you go up a notch to root veg then up to fruit, you reduce the intake. Leafy greens are most important and should be included in all diets. Grain in dog food is not there to serve a purpose other than to fill I don't think. The carbohydrate dogs eat should be from leafy greens, root veg, or even fruit which provide good nutrition not from grain which has very low nutritional value. This is the real reason I don't like grain/wheat in dog food. 

In saying all of that, there's nothing quite like a home made sofa farl on a weekend (not for the dogs) which has no nutritional content, just sheer indulgence


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Makes very good sense Ruth. I am reading a book about kale right now. This super food gets sweeter after a frost. I am completely smitten with kale. Next year I think I'll test several varieties, this year we only planted two.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

fairlie said:


> Makes very good sense Ruth. I am reading a book about kale right now. This super food gets sweeter after a frost. I am completely smitten with kale. Next year I think I'll test several varieties, this year we only planted two.


Love kale! Have you roasted it?


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

fairlie said:


> Vets do make significant money selling dog food. It would definitely effect their bottomline if they stopped selling it.
> 
> Older vets got less nutrition training at school than vets do now.
> 
> ...


I think this makes some sense, although I have a slight problem with reducing food that much with a dog that has been spayed at 6 months - up until 9 months to a year smaller breed dogs are still growing, larger dogs might not stabalize til well after a year.



2ndhandgal said:


> I have always just fed according to body condition to be honest, if dog getting overweight cut back slightly and for thinner add a little more - some dogs are like bottomless pits anyway and always hungry while some are pickier and don't gain weight.
> 
> For a serious hunger problem you could always cook some veggies and add to the meal to bulk it out a little.
> 
> 20% seems like a huge difference in the calories needed though


I'm one who feeds to body condition - my dogs get fed less in the wet, cold, dark months 
Sometimes I think hunger=boredom - hence I eat more chocolate in those wet, cold, dark months 



fairlie said:


> My friend actually spoke to the current band wagon of "carbs as villans" and grain free dog diets. She said that in the wild wolves eat the stomachs (and thus the contents) of many herbivores (rabbits, mice etc...). She said it is best to test for specific allergies with an allergy testing diet rather than completely cutting out an important food group. It actually makes sense to me.
> 
> I like simple diet advice best. Eat food, not too much, mostly fruits and vegatables. For dogs I think the same applies, but it should read "mostly meat and fish".


I also agree with carnivores eating the stomach and contents - but on the whole, the stomach is a pretty small percentage of the total body mass (or should be, don't look at mine ). Most herbivores eat more green rather than grain anyway. I also think that dogs eat rabbit poo etc for nutritional reasons, not just to gross us out.



RuthMill said:


> Love kale! Have you roasted it?


Tell me how


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Most brands do a diet/light range. I struggle with feeding Bonnie and Dexter sometimes as he needs more food than her to keep his weight up and she is prone to being a bit tubby. I have to be careful that she doesn't go over to his bowl and gobble some of it. He is quite submissive and will let her share it with him.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I give Dudley a pretty healthy diet, Nutriment with a few extra treats - But - I LOVE carbs! oh I know they are bad for me but I do find it hard to cut down - oh and sugar of course! anything bad for you really!!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I have not roasted kale, but we do have kale chips, I wonder if that is the same recipe? 

Marzi the 20% would be 20% less than what they would have had pre spay. It would still have to increase of course as they get bigger and if they increased their activity level.

What I like about that book/author is that she says all processed dog foods are balanced and that, if well balanced, raw is good too. She is not trying to bash other peoples decisions, just to make sure dogs get everything they need and that people who want to serve high quality ingredients can do so themselves. I also like that mixing and matching processed food with properly balanced "real" food is allowed and even encouraged. 

Marzi take heart, the botanist/doctor book I read says we NEED chocolate, in moderation, every day. 

Dawn I don't think low quality carbs are necessarily bad for everyone. My pet theory is that people are like cars, some of us can drink very low test fuel and do just fine. But others of us, especially as we age, have fancier engines which do better with really high test fuel. I have no grand prix aspirations, so bring on the poutine and doughnuts!


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

fairlie said:


> I have not roasted kale, but we do have kale chips, I wonder if that is the same recipe?
> 
> Dawn I don't think low quality carbs are necessarily bad for everyone. My pet theory is that people are like cars, some of us can drink very low test fuel and do just fine. But others of us, especially as we age, have fancier engines which do better with really high test fuel. I have no grand prix aspirations, so bring on the poutine and doughnuts!


Roasted kale - blanch for 5 minutes then roast on medium low for 1 hour. Yum!

I agree that simple carbs aren't bad for everyone. Some people get away with eating them with no side effects or weight gain. I also love carbs but mostly they don't agree with me, so I try to keep them to a minimum as much as possible.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

fairlie said:


> What I like about that book/author is that she says all processed dog foods are balanced and that, if well balanced, raw is good too. She is not trying to bash other peoples decisions, just to make sure dogs get everything they need and that people who want to serve high quality ingredients can do so themselves. I also like that mixing and matching processed food with properly balanced "real" food is allowed and even encouraged.


Thanks for the link, I've not had a chance to properly read it yet but I will. 

Lola was fed barking heads for the majority of the first two years of her life, which is a dry kibble, so processed. However, I wasn't aware that all of the processed foods were balanced, looking forward to reading about that, it offers peace of mind for sure! I love the idea of home cooked/home prepared food too.

I had no problem with BH and I think it is an excellent food for what it is. It's just now, after lots of research and educating myself about ingredients and their effects, I decided I wanted to go down the route of what I feel is better for my dogs. I was helped along by the fact that Nina went off kibble completely. Which helped me bite the bullet so to speak and move to a complete raw food.

I hope you don't feel I was bashing anyone else's choices. I was just putting out there my thoughts, ideas and interpretations on food and nutrition.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I never thought you were bashing anyone Ruth! I know you would never do that. I am like you, I think that everyone should make their own choices, but they should be fully informed before they do so.


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