# Hope's results: Giardia, e coli & campylerbactor



## NellyBean

Just got off the phone from the vets, Hope's Faeces sample has come back as positive for Giardia, very high levels of e-coli and campylobactor...

Hope is already on a course of panacur for the giardia and the vet is getting some antibiotics sorted that I will collect shortly... Hope seems absolutely fine in herself, since putting her on NI she is eating amazingly, very playful, drinking pleanty, her poos are formed (were only loose last week and her constant shaking has now stopped), although she still has blood and mucus (but could be down to stress of new environment!?) and is very skinny (weighs 2.3kg at 9 weeks, assume thats underweight!?)

My main concern is that the vet mentioned e coli obviously comes from raw meat... With Hope being on NI could the bacteria be coming from her food?? We are being extra vigilent with hygeine and have been since she was ill last tues/wed, but obviously I am very concerned about this passing onto Ben especially with him having diabetes he has a low imune system! The vet advised it is normal to have a small amount of ecoli, but with her levels being so high wants to get on top with antibiotics?

Would really appreciate opinions from anyone who knows more about this bacteria, whether I should be concerned and whether their is a link to her NI diet???

Thanks x


----------



## Dee123

So sorry about Hope. You must be so worried! 2.3kg doesn't sound skinny but depends on her stature. Milo was 2.5kg at 9 weeks and vet felt its ok. E coli is all around us and people often get high levels frOm poor hygiene like not washing hands etc. no reason it has to be from NI not elsewhere! She will be better soon. X


----------



## lady amanda

I am sorry she has been poorly. 
2.3 doesn't sound under weight. but cockapoos range so much in size that you would likely need to feel her to see if she needs to gain any weight, you should be able to feel her ribs when pushing slightly but they should not stick out by any means.
I hope someone else can help with the e coli, I have no experience with this.


----------



## NellyBean

Dee123 said:


> So sorry about Hope. You must be so worried! 2.3kg doesn't sound skinny but depends on her stature. Milo was 2.5kg at 9 weeks and vet felt its ok. E coli is all around us and people often get high levels frOm poor hygiene like not washing hands etc. no reason it has to be from NI not elsewhere! She will be better soon. X


Thanks for the reply Dee... I suppose I just wanted reassurance.. I know so many people recommend raw diets (me now being one of those people after seeing her wolfing her food down when previously she was turning her noseup at all food offered!) and the vets reaction to hearing she was on NI took me back, at which he pointed out e coli comes from raw meat  just hate to think I may be making her more ill!?


----------



## NellyBean

lady amanda said:


> I am sorry she has been poorly.
> 2.3 doesn't sound under weight. but cockapoos range so much in size that you would likely need to feel her to see if she needs to gain any weight, you should be able to feel her ribs when pushing slightly but they should not stick out by any means.
> I hope someone else can help with the e coli, I have no experience with this.


Thanks x her hips especially are skin and bones, no meat to speak of really, which is what the vet commented on last week.. (she has put a decent amount of weight on though since we put her on the NI) as she was 2.1 when we got her, which dropped down as she wasnt eating at all the first 3-4 days! x


----------



## lady amanda

She will gain weight on NI she will get to a nice and healthy weight...remember tho, if she favors the poodle side she could always be very lean....Lady who is full grown her hips are quite skinny, the vet suggested we get her to gain some weight ( tho it wasn't our usual vet) she is 16 pounds...I feed her for a dog who is 20 pounds and she has gained nothing, she is just a skinny girl. I am sure you are doing what is right for her, and a gradual weight gain is better than all of a sudden gaining 1/5th of your body weight. now that she is on the mend, I am sure she will be just fine.


----------



## JulesB

Betty has really skinny hips and defo takes after the poodle side as she is very petite.

As for weight, Betty was 13 weeks old before she got to 2.3 kg as she is an English working / toy poodle cross and one of the smallest fully grown cockapoos on here.

At least now you know whats wrong with Hope you can get her sorted. I'm sure she'll put weight on and like Mo says, best to do it slowly than too quickly.

x


----------



## JoJo

Oh lovely Hope .. so sorry to hear she is poorly ... you have done the right thing and your vet will help you all the way now. 

I don't feed NI so sorry can't help there, but many on here do and I know they will help you all the way... 

Regarding weight, as said above the cockapoo mix makes it hard to gage the correct weight for certain ages, but just keep weighing Hope and she should be gaining weight quite rapidly during puppyhood, although all dogs are different, just make sure the weight is gaining not dropping  

Sending you hug .. it is horrible worrying about your puppy.. we are all here for you xxx


----------



## mandym

How awful,i hope little hope gets better soon.Is her sibling any better,i remember you saying a litter mate of hopes was poorly too.xxx


----------



## Janev1000

I don't think many vets generally support raw diets and you will just have to stick with what you think is right. I feed NI too and am very happy with it. I felt negative vibes towards it at my vet's puppy parties and they seemed to seek every opportunity to persuade me onto Hills - giving me a free sample pack - which I gave back the following week! When they checked Biscuit's anal glands (sorry!) they gave him these huge nuggets of it and said he would need more fibre to prevent any anal problems - even though the vet had just confirmed there was nothing wrong with them! As JoJo said, keep weighing her every week and look for a steady weight gain.


----------



## NellyBean

Thank you everyone for your kind words and support..

I have spoken with the people at NI and they have assured me all the food is teasted so unlikely to be from their  they have been really helpful and reassuring so know I am doing the right thing having he on NI.. Although for a short time are going to put her on chicken and rice till her tummy settles a bit more 

xx


----------



## NellyBean

mandym said:


> How awful,i hope little hope gets better soon.Is her sibling any better,i remember you saying a litter mate of hopes was poorly too.xxx


Thanks Mandy, last time I spoke to Vicky she said little Teddy was doing a lot better, so fingers crossed they are both over the worst!


----------



## Pollypiglet

There are many strains of ecoli some more dangerous than others. I may be wrong but most people come into contact with the weaker strains possibly on a daily basis hence need for good hygine washing with soap and water. Think if it had been a particularly dangerous strain your vet would have said! Hopefully.


----------



## Dylansmum

NellyBean said:


> the vets reaction to hearing she was on NI took me back, at which he pointed out e coli comes from raw meat  just hate to think I may be making her more ill!?


My last dog was a cavalier and I switched him to a BARF diet when he was about 11 years old. My vet and all the staff there treated me like a criminal and indicated that I was abusing/killing my dog. He lived to the grand old age of 17, was walking in the park on the day he died and didn't need to visit the vet for the last 5 or 6 years of his life, so I think I had the last laugh.
These days more vets are clued up about diet and accept that there is a lot of merit in raw feeding and there are some vets who even sell NI, so the reaction to BARF is not usually as bad as it used to be, but I have to say that I would not stay with a vet who did not accept and respect my decision to feed raw, even if they were not personally in favour of it. A lot of them are ruled by profit and will always recommend the brand that they sell, and with others it's a bit like a GP and complementary therapies - if it's not part of their training and experience, some of them don't take the time and effort to learn about it and understand it.


----------



## Ali79

Sorry to hear that Hope has been unwell and hope she is better very soon  x


----------



## Jeanie

hi,
poor little Hope,
hope she gets better soon,
if its any ease to ur mind Tilly was only 1.5kgs at 8weeks
only got her weighed earlier and she 7.3kgs and is now 20weeks
she also had blood in her poo.


----------



## M&M's mummy

Awww sorry to hear about the horrible time you are having with little Hope. Must be upsetting bringing home a new puppy and having to deal with all this.

I think whilst her body is dealing with it- I think it would be a good idea like you are doing and put her on a bland diet. Personally I find white fish and some boiled rice easier for them to digest than the chicken.

If she is on antibiotics- pop a dollop of probiotic natural yoghurt on top of her food. This will help readdress the good bacteria in her gut.

Wishing her better


----------



## embee

It doesn't sound like Hope is significantly underweight as Remy was only 2.5kg at 9 weeks. Raw dog food is usually better regarding checks than human raw meat as human raw meat is sold on the basis that it will be cooked whereas raw dog food is intended to be eaten raw. Be guided by NI who will be doing regular checks and like others have said be mindful that some vets aren't great raw feeding fans - it's all too easy to just blame the food and then discount other possibilities. You may never know how she has picked up these bugs but at least she is now being treated. May be be worth checking in with the breeder to see if others from the litter have had any related problems as it's possible these problems may have been present before you brought Hope home.

This is also interesting "The study sampled four canned and dry dog foods. It found E. coli in all of the commercially processed, cooked foods during one of the four sampling periods, and in one brand of dry food during another sampling period." so it's not necessarily exclusively a raw feeding issue!


----------



## Scarlett

I don't have any advice for you but I just wanted to say that I'm sorry to hear that baby Hope is unwell  I hope that she gets well soon. 

xo from Scarlett and Krysten


----------



## puppylove

Hello Helen, so sorry to hear about Hope's diagnosis. I have Beau who is almost nine months and shortly after he came to live with us he was diagnosed with giardia and e coli. He had chronic diarrhoea and his poos were often yellow and smelly ( sorry for the graphic details ). He has had so many courses of antibiotics I have lost count.

However since being put onto Eukanuba puppy intestinal and having enterogenic powders added to his food things are somewhat improved. I felt that the antibiotics helped a little but never cured him entirely. Just like Hope he was very happy and playful despite being unwell. I have never fed a raw diet so I'm afraid I can't comment on the e coli risk. I hope it helps to know someone has been through something similar.


----------



## Turi

SO sorry to hear this, it sounds like you've had a terrible day 

Have you spoken to her breeder? This can't be normal?


----------



## Tressa

Jeanie said:


> hi,
> poor little Hope,
> hope she gets better soon,
> if its any ease to ur mind Tilly was only 1.5kgs at 8weeks
> only got her weighed earlier and she 7.3kgs and is now 20weeks
> she also had blood in her poo.


Wow - she is doing really well, then. Great to see them thriving


----------



## Tressa

So sorry about little Hope - hope she gets over all this very soon. Such a worry for you. I am no help with the raw feeding either, but I haven't heard anybody on here who feeds it having any complaints like Hope, poor baby. Wishing her a quick recovery.


----------



## NellyBean

Thank you so so much everyone for your kind words! I really do love the support from this forum as you realise your not alone!

I have a treatment plan so to speak in my head now, so at least feel we can fight this now we know what we are dealing with! As of tomorrow she will be on either chicken/white fish with rice for a week, antibiotics start tomorrow, then after that am hoping to follow jukee doodles natural remedy for getting rid of giardia to ensure it has totally gone (dont want it to keep sneeking back).. After that back onto NI and fingers crossed a healthy happy Hope!

I am in close contact with Vicky who got Teddy from the same litter at Sylml as Hope, as Teddy has been ill with same (but worst) symptoms. We have both contacted Sylvia at Sylml to advise her of whats happened but she assures us she is not aware of any other puppies from the litter being ill.

Thank you once again for all your help, support and advice :hug:


----------



## Blaablaa

Hi Helen, sorry, only just caught up on this thread. I'm so sorry to hear Hope has been poorly. How is she now? x


----------



## NellyBean

Hi barbara,

Thanks, she is a million times better thank god!! She finished her antibiotics yesterday and needs another course of panicur next week to ensure the giardia has gone, she is a happy mischieveous, playful pup now  just need to get her to put a bit more weight on, as vets commented that she is very boney, no suprise really with her having so many infections at once!

xx


----------



## wellerfeller

Thats great news!! So glad she is feeling much better, what a relief for you.
Well done little Hope


----------



## NellyBean

Thanks Karen it certainly is a relief and quite exciting as we have started her hypo training today!! Fingers crossed


----------



## Sezra

NellyBean said:


> Thank you so so much everyone for your kind words! I really do love the support from this forum as you realise your not alone!
> 
> I have a treatment plan so to speak in my head now, so at least feel we can fight this now we know what we are dealing with! As of tomorrow she will be on either chicken/white fish with rice for a week, antibiotics start tomorrow, then after that am hoping to follow jukee doodles natural remedy for getting rid of giardia to ensure it has totally gone (dont want it to keep sneeking back).. After that back onto NI and fingers crossed a healthy happy Hope!
> 
> I am in close contact with Vicky who got Teddy from the same litter at Sylml as Hope, as Teddy has been ill with same (but worst) symptoms. We have both contacted Sylvia at Sylml to advise her of whats happened but she assures us she is not aware of any other puppies from the litter being ill.
> 
> Thank you once again for all your help, support and advice :hug:


I am glad to hear the pups are getting better from their illness. I am surprised Sylvia was not more concerned as this is spread through contaminated water or faeces of dogs already infected. The fact that they both came from the same litter suggests the source is at the breeders I would have thought?

I am sure there was a couple of puppys from the same breeder who had kennel cough last summer and the was confusion over the KC vaccines?? Can't really remember? I think it was Jayne's George and another at the same time?


----------



## strof51

We went through similar if not as severe as Hope and Teddy. Poppy was ill in the first week we had her. She was diagnosed with Giardia, our Vet reassured us that that all dogs have these bacteria and most never have an attack, but the long journey home and the stress of being away from her litter mates could have brought on the attack. After a very worrying week or so and antibiotic she made a full recovery, and now over 2 has only visited the Vets for her routine yearly checks


----------



## curt3007

Sezra said:


> I am glad to hear the pups are getting better from their illness. I am surprised Sylvia was not more concerned as this is spread through contaminated water or faeces of dogs already infected. The fact that they both came from the same litter suggests the source is at the breeders I would have thought?
> 
> I am sure there was a couple of puppys from the same breeder who had kennel cough last summer and the was confusion over the KC vaccines?? Can't really remember? I think it was Jayne's George and another at the same time?


Only just seen this post and yes it was my George and Michelle E's pup Daisy who had kennel cough from a vaccine that Sylvia had administered herself but not informed us of! I can say no more!?! Sarah my thought of sylml are prob same as yours


----------



## Sezra

That's right, I remember now. :tapedshut:  x


----------



## NellyBean

curt3007 said:


> Only just seen this post and yes it was my George and Michelle E's pup Daisy who had kennel cough from a vaccine that Sylvia had administered herself but not informed us of! I can say no more!?! Sarah my thought of sylml are prob same as yours


I think you can add me to the same opinion as yours on sylml after ours experiences, It was very hard to start with as it put a real dampner on our excitement at having our brand new fur baby when things went wrong and especially when we found out the breeder hadnt been fully honest with us regarding the litter! thanks for the info, very enlightening! x


----------



## M&M's mummy

A breeder administering a vaccine 

Not sure I feel comfortable about that as dogs can have allergic reactions to vaccines etc...... and surely vaccines should only be administered by a qualified vet or nurse?


----------



## NellyBean

M&M's mummy said:


> A breeder administering a vaccine
> 
> Not sure I feel comfortable about that as dogs can have allergic reactions to vaccines etc...... and surely vaccines should only be administered by a qualified vet or nurse?


Out of curiosity is it normal practice / ok for a breeder to inject the microchip also, as I believe Sylvia did Hopes herself which I was suprised about when I found out afterwards


----------



## M&M's mummy

NellyBean said:


> Out of curiosity is it normal practice / ok for a breeder to inject the microchip also, as I believe Sylvia did Hopes herself which I was suprised about when I found out afterwards


Yes it is quite common for breeders to microchip- especially the larger ones as probably more cost effective.

Think it's just a one day course to learn how to.


----------



## Jukee Doodles

NellyBean said:


> As of tomorrow she will be on either chicken/white fish with rice for a week, antibiotics start tomorrow, then after that am hoping to follow jukee doodles natural remedy for getting rid of giardia to ensure it has totally gone (dont want it to keep sneeking back).. After that back onto NI and fingers crossed a healthy happy Hope!





strof51 said:


> We went through similar if not as severe as Hope and Teddy. Poppy was ill in the first week we had her. She was diagnosed with Giardia, our Vet reassured us that that all dogs have these bacteria and most never have an attack, but the long journey home and the stress of being away from her litter mates could have brought on the attack. After a very worrying week or so and antibiotic she made a full recovery, and now over 2 has only visited the Vets for her routine yearly checks


Giardia( microscopic parasite), e-coli and campylabactor are always present in the environment so good husbandry is the key to keeping the levels low enough so that the puppy can cope with them, If the levels are allowed to get too high then they clearly can make puppies very poorly if they are put under stress like when they go to their new homes.
I have found a homeopathic remedy to kill parasites using digestive enzymes which can be used on pregnant bitches, puppies and kittens. We are now routinely giving a two week course to our pregnant bitches that are isolated from the main pack at the end of their pregnancy, to reduce the contamination levels to an absolute minimum for their puppies. It's a simple process and can be bought over the counter in health food shops and be given to any dog. It's a simple precaution but very effective. 



NellyBean said:


> Out of curiosity is it normal practice / ok for a breeder to inject the microchip also, as I believe Sylvia did Hopes herself which I was suprised about when I found out afterwards


Training to be a Microchip Implanter is one day of training so it's not uncommon for dog groomers and dog breeders to offer this service. J x


----------



## NellyBean

Luckily due to the vet treatment and natural remedy recommended by Jukee Doodles when Hope was diagnosed she made a full recovery. The main reason I have been so upset with our Sylml experience is that I have since found out that sonya did not give birth to eight pups as I was told by Sylvia, but in fact seven! The eighth pup was a friends from another litter that had been adopted by Sonya 

I understand that these things happen sometimes and feel it was a very kind thing of Sylvia to do, to rescue this puppy, however at no stage was I told by Sylvia, I dont even know which puppy was the adopted one when I went to choose Hope, so for all I know Hope could be from an entirely different parentage than i was told! On the paperwork from Sylvia it clearly states that Sonya had eight puppies with Zac, however that was not the case  it does worry me in case Hope isn't Sonyas pup, however love her so dearly I have reached the point I would rather not know now xx


----------



## Sezra

You are right to be concerned as if Hope is not Sonya's then you have no idea of parentage or health. This is very dishonest as by lying about parentage has the potential for all sorts of issues. As you say, you love Hope and probably don't want to know but it is a shame that this kind of thing goes on. I have also had experience of this breeder 'bending the truth'.


----------



## M&M's mummy

NellyBean said:


> Luckily due to the vet treatment and natural remedy recommended by Jukee Doodles when Hope was diagnosed she made a full recovery. The main reason I have been so upset with our Sylml experience is that I have since found out that sonya did not give birth to eight pups as I was told by Sylvia, but in fact seven! The eighth pup was a friends from another litter that had been adopted by Sonya
> 
> I understand that these things happen sometimes and feel it was a very kind thing of Sylvia to do, to rescue this puppy, however at no stage was I told by Sylvia, I dont even know which puppy was the adopted one when I went to choose Hope, so for all I know Hope could be from an entirely different parentage than i was told! On the paperwork from Sylvia it clearly states that Sonya had eight puppies with Zac, however that was not the case  it does worry me in case Hope isn't Sonyas pup, however love her so dearly I have reached the point I would rather not know now xx


It is terrible when you get information concerning your breeder after you have the puppy- have had the same myself.

It is surprising what you do get to hear about some 

As potential owners you can only go so far in your researching of breeders- when cover-ups and misinformation happens it is beyond your control sadly.


----------



## Jukee Doodles

This story doesn't make sense to me, maybe I've missed something.... as if I had a cleaver bitch that had adopted a puppy in need as her own I'd want everyone to know about it. Have you had the conversation directly with Sylvia, or has the information come through others? J x


----------



## NellyBean

Just to update following everyones comments I sent Sylml (sylvia) an email last night...

I have mixed feelings about her response to be honest.. 

Firstly just so you understand why I was so upset and worried, I received an email from Sylvia just after the litter was born, following my question "how many pups did sonya have and ratio boys/girls??" her response "sonya has 4 boys, 4 girls very clever" following this mail I went to view the puppies and to choose Hope, during this meeting at no point did Sylvia mention about an adopted pup.

Throughout the whole process we were very happy with Sylvia's communication and updates via photos on request. We were happy that the pups would have first injections and that Zac the dad was PRA clear, so much so when another potential owner contacted me via a forum with doubts about the breeder I reassured them that we were more than happy with the breeder 

As you will be aware if you have read this thread, shortly after getting Hope home she became very ill (as did another pup from same litter) with guardia, ecoli and compyler (all of which were tested for and confirmed by my vet), however due to incubation periods in my vets opinion she could have only become infected at the breeders (i am no expert and can only go off what the experts tell me!)... I advised Sylvia of the infection and to her credit she has paid me the excess for the treatment the rest I got back from Petplan...

However since then I had a conversation with another owner of a pup from Hopes litter and within that conversation she mentioned about the adopted pup, which I had no previous knowledge of  i then checked through my paperwork and on the vaccination/microchip vet paperwork, sonyas name as mum is at the top with eight puppies from that litter... (now I hope you may get a clearer idea of why I was concerned  )

Sylvias response this morning:

She advised that their was a pup in the litter that had been adopted (for the record I feel adopting a puppy/puppies to give them their best chance is amazing, the issue is not about mums adopting puppies, more about breeders being honest and upfront to all potential owners). So in fact Sonya only had seven pups not eight as per her previous email. However she has advised it wasnt Hope  and went on to say she is upset I would doubt her.... Now I feel terrible I have upset her 

I am not a judgemental person, I am a mum and a person who is very sensitive and gets hurt easily! I just feel that if Sylvia had been open and upfront about the adopted pup from the beginning it could have saved me a lot of heartache and worry... I am sorry if people are going to be upset or angry about my comments, I have only spoken about my experiences with my breeder (and I know their are many people out their who are more than happy with their experiences with Sylml, which is one of the reasons I went to her myslef following many positive comments on here, however my experience hasn't been so good!)

Sorry for the long rambling, I just wanted to make sure I explained everything in full so you can get a clearer picture on why I am upset xx


----------



## DB1

Oh I think we can all totally understand why you would be upset and dissapointed, going back to Hopes weight, I'm sure she will soon put weight on, while she had the Giardia her body wouldn' have been able to process the food she was eating properly. good luck to you and your little girl. x


----------



## Jukee Doodles

Thank you so much for your open reply and I for one can understand why you were upset. I think it is a lesson to all breeders that at the end of the day it is always the best policy to be totally open and honest with customers even if at the time what they have to tell is not comfortable. As people we can all deal with the truth, good and bad in my experience. Well done you for letting Sylvia know how you feel. As breeders we don't always get honest direct feedback but without it we can't develop and grow. J x


----------



## EvaClareEva

This is such a shame but this breeder is churning out so many puppies it's just a production line as I have also seen all other mixed breeds being advertised by this breeder to you this is your precious puppy but to them it's just another 850 I hope she gets better soon x


----------



## Turi

Thank you for the update Helen – I’ve read this entire thread with interest. 

For the record I think you had every right to question Sylvia – what happened to Hope was shocking and I’m sure I can speak on everyone’s behalf when I say that we’re all so relieved she has recovered so well :hug:. 

I want to share something – after we chose Saffi and just a few days before we were due to pick her up our breeder contacted me and admitted that in doing the paperwork she’d realised she’d made a mistake regarding the sire of Saffi’s litter . She has two Poodles and we’d met just one on our visit. You may not know the history of our Cockapoo search but it was long and thorough and I’d have never agreed on a puppy without meeting both parents. I was really upset and let our breeder know this. To give her credit she did tell us and I assume that it would have been easy to cover if she had wanted to . I asked if we could meet the sire when we picked Saffi up – he was a bit more shy that the first of her Poodles but still sweet. We’d fallen so much for Saffi at this point I decided to trust my gut and go ahead. As an aside, I want to point out to anyone planning on purchasing a Cockapoo from Broadreach that aside from this experience we have been delighted with Saffi and the experience we had with Anne .

I don’t want to hijack the thread Helen but want to reassure you that you have every right to be upset. I don’t understand how mistakes such as this can happen but they do and you shouldn’t feel guilty that Sylvia is now upset. Best case scenario, Sylvia lost track and wasn’t purposefully dishonest about the eight adopted puppy. 

Keep us updated on any news with Sylvia x


----------



## Janev1000

Hi Helen So sorry to hear of your experiences. I can sympathise totally as I also had either a very ignorant or dishonest breeder. Firstly our pup was advertised as an F2, when he was clearly an F1B - I had to tell her this and explain the generation thing! Secondly we were told that her cockapoo was from an English working cocker and later found out that she was from an American/toy mix. Thirdly, the ad stated that the stud was PRA tested but it was later discovere, when I asked for proof, to to be a 'genuine' mistake as she got him mixed up with the previous stud. Thankfully, the stud was then tested and found to be clear. I should have walked away at that stage but like many, you become smitten with your puppy and carry on but I'm still not comfortable about having paid a lot of money to someone who shouldn't really be supported.

Even though we love our pup dearly, it does mar the whole experience and I have become very cautious about our next purchase with a whole list of questions and will want to see proof of testing before viewing a pup. 

You would think it would be simple to be honest but clearly this is not happening!


----------



## JoJo

I have no experience of this breeder, and I can fully appreciate your concerns Helen, not nice to read, let alone experience ... an open policy is a must in my opinion, there are so many things to be considered when breeding, both good and bad will happen but a breeder must be true to them self and true to your new puppy owners ... 

EvaClareEva may have a point, but like I said I have no experience of this breeder, however some large breeders may sell puppies like a production line, whereas I prefer quality breeding rather than quantity breeding  a good point for all new or potential puppy owners to consider


----------



## Jon Buoy

JoJo said:


> ... some large breeders may sell puppies like a production line, whereas I prefer quality breeding rather than quantity breeding


The two are not mutually exclusive and there are large breeders who do maintain high standards too. It could be argued that a larger breeder is more likely to have the necessary experience to deal with any problems that may occur and I think that every new puppy owner has to form a judgement after having weighed up all of the options.


----------



## M&M's mummy

Jon Buoy said:


> The two are not mutually exclusive and there are large breeders who do maintain high standards too. It could be argued that a larger breeder is more likely to have the necessary experience to deal with any problems that may occur and I think that every new puppy owner has to form a judgement after having weighed up all of the options.


 Based on probability that a larger breeder has the likelyhood of seeing more go wrong as they produce more perhaps?

Not sure if experience is necessarily based on the scale of breeding but the quality of breeding. A quality breeder is probably more likely to do courses, attend seminars and the smaller breeders may have more free time to gain experience perhaps?

After all puppy farmers are larger breeders and doubt very much if their experience is one to acknowledge.


----------



## Jon Buoy

M&M's mummy said:


> Based on probability that a larger breeder has the likelyhood of seeing more go wrong as they produce more perhaps?


Yes you're right, but perhaps also the experience to spot something out of the ordinary, before it becomes a bigger problem. 



M&M's mummy said:


> Not sure if experience is necessarily based on the scale of breeding but the quality of breeding. A quality breeder is probably more likely to do courses, attend seminars and the smaller breeders may have more free time to gain experience perhaps?
> 
> After all puppy farmers are larger breeders and doubt very much if their experience is one to acknowledge.


Puppy farmers are larger breeders, but not all larger breeders are puppy farmers.

My point was that it is possible for a breeder producing many litters each year to also offer quality too and it's the duty of each new puppy owner to make sure that the puppy they're getting has been raised in a good way. There are good and bad examples of all types of breeder, big or small.


----------



## M&M's mummy

I don't think anyone was saying that large breeders cannnot produce quality- think JoJo ( as your post was referenced to that) said _some_ large breeders not _all_

But I suppose it depends on ones definition of "quality" as we all have own our standards of what we want/need in our breeder.

For example you can have the most healthiest prime example of dogs to breed from, but just because they are what one may class as " Quality" does not in my eyes mean that then they have to produce xxxx amount of litters or sire xxxx amount of litters. For me personally Quality is defined not only by the dams and sires and puppies produced, but also about how they are raised, the reasons as to why they are bred, the knowledge of the breeder etc......


Yes totally agree though Jon, there are good and bad in both large and small- crossbreed and Pedigree.......


----------



## Turi

I don’t like EvaClareEva’s comment – it lacked sensitivity given Helen is clearly upset and a lot of people on here already have puppies from Sylml. To refer to Sylml as a production line has only restarted the debate of hobby vs commercial breeder all over again. 

My penny’s worth? You cannot pigeon-hole any breeder – there are large breeders who are conscientious about their breeding programme, carefully selecting their breeding stock and breeding for quality and health. There are large breeders who could be compared to a puppy farm. There are small hobby breeders who have the luxury of being at home full-time, understanding the health testing required and able to pay for it as they wish to breed for quality and health*. And there are families who have a Cocker and team it with their mate’s Poodle because they’ve heard Cockapoos are ‘all the rage’ and don’t give a fig about quality or health but about charging £850 a pup, the average going rate for a Cockapoo. 

Let’s stop evaluating breeders by their size but by their values and breeding practices. 

* As an aside, in a year’s worth of research I didn’t find one hobby breeder of this sort. I now know of two – JoJo’s breeder and Katie on here but they really are few and far between.


----------



## Jedicrazy

Helen, I've just read this whole thread and I'm not surprised you feel upset about it all. I would be too. I'm so glad that little Hope is getting better now and that you are clear about her parentage. 

I have also had a bad experience with my breeder but mine was a hobby breeder. When I contacted her to let her know about Obi getting Meningitis at 6 months old and to find out if any litter mates or parents had suffered from it, she didn't even acknowledge me or bother to reply. I feel this is just shirking responsibility and I wonder every day whether she is breeding other pups that may suffer from the same horrible condition. There is no proof that SRM is hereditary but what if it is!?

We all have to remember that breeding pups makes money and some breeders do it with really well with love, care and due diligence and some breeders clearly don't. I don't think it's a case or large versus small but about their motivation to breed. It's really sad but it really is a case of BUYER BEWARE and unfortunately there are a few of us whose happy memories of puppyhood are marred by sickness and illness and all we can do is try to move on. I hope you and little Hope will do that. Sending Hope a big hug :hug:


----------



## M&M's mummy

Talking about negative experiences with a breeder is difficult, especially when people have dogs from the same breeder as you.

Can I just ask: What do people prefer- that they keep their experiences to themselves?

or would you rather know about any negatives?


----------



## Turi

Personally I am always interested in hearing about people's experiences, good or bad. 

BUT it’s always possible (with some forethought and sensitivity) to approach difficult subjects in a delicate and tactful way!


----------



## EvaClareEva

Sorry if I've offended anyone but that's just my view on it x


----------



## Jon Buoy

I definitely want to hear about the experience of others, good or bad. I think that Helen has been quite correct in challenging her breeder and has then reported the salient facts for others to learn from.


----------



## M&M's mummy

Turi said:


> Personally I am always interested in hearing about people's experiences, good or bad.
> 
> BUT it’s always possible (with some forethought and sensitivity) to approach difficult subjects in a delicate and tactful way!



Difficult one - sometimes even just giving straight forward facts can upset people.

Sometimes an experience is not always with hard evidence/facts but sometimes based on a "feeling" that something is not quite right.

I suppose like anything there are people that are happy to know and others that would rather not.

Interesting dilemma - would be interested to see what others feel whether they would like to know the negatives openly discussed on an open forum or done via PM's???

I suppose the question is do you want breeders openly discussed both good and bad aspects? or think that should remain confidential?


----------



## Blaablaa

I am reading this thread with great interest! Thanks to all for their views and my very best wishes to Helen and Hope. It is quite disturbing to read of your experiences.

Let me just say that I am absolutely delighted with my pup now, but there was a point in the run-up to getting him where, if I hadn't committed myself by paying a deposit, I might have walked away. It wasn't because of any suspicion of malpractice, but because of my frustration at Sylml's poor and rather unprofessional communication. At the time I did exchange a few words of empathy with another member by PM (you know who you are - and thanks!  ). I decided not to go public at that delicate point in the procedure.
At the particular time that I wanted to get a puppy, there didn't seem to be very much choice of breeders with pups available within reach of my part of the country. The only other one I seriously looked at was a one-off hobby breeder, but decided that as I didn't have much experience with dogs I prefered to choose a breeder that did and could assure (as far as possible) the health of the pup and its parents. I don't have any reason to doubt that that has been achieved. However, because of her manner I did feel that there was a slight cloud of anxiety over what should have been an exciting and happy time, but I'm pleased to say I've moved on and it all seems to be working out very well.


----------



## Turi

I think it’s virtually impossible to actively and frequently contribute to a forum without someone, at some point, getting upset or offended. People have different opinions, different sensitivity levels and sometimes how one writes can be very badly misconstrued. The downside about faceless forum communuication is that the nuances of facial expressions, verbal tone and body language that help us understand other people’s intentions are lost. 

I don’t have an issue with straight-talking or people talking about their negative experiences. In fact I’m actively interested and wouldn’t enjoy a ‘PC’ forum where negatives were only spoken about via personal messaging. Equally, I welcome discussions about breeders – both hobby and commercial – that are good and bad which is why I contributed to this thread with my negative experience with the breeder we chose. 

If I have been misunderstood I now clarify that EvaClareEva’s comment bothered me because of its place in the forum, after a member had recounted their painful experience with their puppy, and because of the emotive language used - ‘churn’, ‘production line’. EvaClaraEva has apologised for causing offence – I am content with this outcome and don’t need to dwell on it any further. 

Now Helen, have you got any more adorable videos of Hope on the slide with your children?!


----------



## wellerfeller

I have been following this thread and find it interesting. I would like to thank Helen for sharing her experience, it is a brave thing to do. I am glad Hope is doing well now.
It is imperitive that ALL experiences good and bad are shared as only one thing can come of it...lessons learnt. By both puppy buyers and breeders themselves.
In my opinion even the best of breeders is not perfect, we are all human and open to making the odd mistake. There are good and bad breeders out there and its a hard job to sometimes to separate the two but a even good breeder will undoubtedly have a bad puppy selling experience in their past, where mistakes were made and buyers have perhaps come away not having the experience they thought they would have. So long as the breeder learns from this then that is all that can be done concerning a bad experience.
I feel the actual cloudiness surrounding the extra litter member is what is disconcerting rather than the act itself. If all had been aware from day one then I am sure it would not even be an issue. So open communiction is imperritive between breeder and customer, with out it trust is lost and can not be regained.
So best of luck for the future with little Hope and thanks for sharing your stories, I am sure they will help people.


----------



## EvaClareEva

Life isn't all a bed of roses at the end of the day this breeder lied to her I just read what was posted and put my opinion i don't think it lacked sensitivity at all!! I never mentioned about hobby or large scale breeders you keep on about on it and keep repeating Helens upset i was just putting my opinion.

And Turi i said i didn't mean to offend anyone and then your back on saying you don't like my comment again!! this is a forum and people are entitled to have there say... 



Turi said:


> I don’t like EvaClareEva’s comment – it lacked sensitivity given Helen is clearly upset and a lot of people on here already have puppies from Sylml. To refer to Sylml as a production line has only restarted the debate of hobby vs commercial breeder all over again.
> 
> My penny’s worth? You cannot pigeon-hole any breeder – there are large breeders who are conscientious about their breeding programme, carefully selecting their breeding stock and breeding for quality and health. There are large breeders who could be compared to a puppy farm. There are small hobby breeders who have the luxury of being at home full-time, understanding the health testing required and able to pay for it as they wish to breed for quality and health*. And there are families who have a Cocker and team it with their mate’s Poodle because they’ve heard Cockapoos are ‘all the rage’ and don’t give a fig about quality or health but about charging £850 a pup, the average going rate for a Cockapoo.
> 
> Let’s stop evaluating breeders by their size but by their values and breeding practices.
> 
> * As an aside, in a year’s worth of research I didn’t find one hobby breeder of this sort. I now know of two – JoJo’s breeder and Katie on here but they really are few and far between.


----------



## JoJo

Jon Buoy said:


> The two are not mutually exclusive and there are large breeders who do maintain high standards too. It could be argued that a larger breeder is more likely to have the necessary experience to deal with any problems that may occur and I think that every new puppy owner has to form a judgement after having weighed up all of the options.


Possibly .. but not always so  ... 

My wording was .... SOME ..


----------



## JoJo

Everyone is allowed an opinion and I think a few things may have been taken wrongly. As we all know there is good and bad in all elements of life... 

Jon obviously didn't see the word 'some' in my post, but I stick by what I said... 

Helen (& Hope's) experience has upset many of us on here and I hope others reading this thread will learn from it ... 

Think Karen said something on the lines of we all make mistakes, and I totally agree, as long as we learn from our mistakes, that’s what matters .. we are only human after all.


----------



## wellerfeller

I did indeed Jojo, we do all make mistakes and it is only down to people willing to share their good AND bad experiences (possibly concerning the same breeder) that will enable others to evaluate whether mistakes are honest ones or not. To make a proper judgement you have to hear about all of it, even though it may be uncomfortable reading and create disagreements.


----------



## NellyBean

Sorry I went all quiet, unfortunately Ben was rushed to hospital via ambulance Monday night due to losing conciousnous during a diabetic hypo... After a night in hospital he is back home safe and sound thank god... So back to the thread...

Thank you everyone for your comments etc on this thread  it is clear that their are a lot of differing opinions out their! As said prefiously I am sure their are people out their who are happy with the service they received from Sylvia at Sylml (and please don't tar all large breeders with the same brush based off my comments! I have only spoken about my experiences with Sylml, and as previously stated their are good and bad breeders large or small!) 

In answer to your question Turi, unsuprisingly I have received to further reply from Sylvia regarding why she was not open / lied about the number of pups born / the adopted puppy and to be honest I am not expecting any further contact from her.... Me myself I have drawn a line under the whole situation and am concentrating on the future with my beautiful family and bundle of fluff  Will I return to Sylml for poo number two (oh yes am already dreaming of another beautiful pup in a year or so  ) definately not, purely because all trust has been destroyed by what has happened which is a great shame but that is purely based on my own experiences! 

I am hoping to jump on the laptop if I get a chance tonight and put a video on of Hope at our local national trust park with my older boys  xxx


----------



## Turi

Oh Helen, poor you. I hope your little boy is ok now? 

I completely understand your stance re Sylml and would feel the same. Mistakes happen and are forgivable but to ignore the problem in the hope it will go away… that’s not right. 

Can’t believe you’re already planning number two…! Amazingly addictive these poos… 

Can’t wait for more updates, especially the video variety!


----------



## lady amanda

Oh Helen, I really hope Ben is okay.


----------



## Tressa

Hope Ben recovers quickly - such a worry when your children are taken ill. Thinking of you all.


----------



## Sezra

Sorry to hear about Ben  Hope all is ok now. xx


----------



## JoJo

Sorry to hear about Ben ... thinking of you all xxx

Stop thinking of cockapoo number 2 .. lol  

Dont worry how people take this thread, and well done for sharing your experience with us all, we are all friends on here.


----------



## NellyBean

Thank you everyone, we are struggling with Ben's levels at the minute as suspect he is sickening for chicken pox (on the rounds near us apparently  )... My little super dog detected another hypo of Bens this afternoon (although I didnt pick up on her signals until afterwards!! More about training us than the dog  ).. It is an ongoing battle with his diabetes, and that was the first time he has lost total conciousness (very scary!) but thankfully he soon came bouncing back when they got his levels back up and once he was brought the lego in hospital 

Ben has been posing with Hope this afternoon for a couple of photos so you can put a face to the little boy and his favourite little doggy . Will try to upload once the four kids go down tonight! xx


----------



## DB1

wow Helen sounds like you are having so much to cope with, lets hope its all good news for you from now on, your little boy sounds great and if you could learn how to read Hope's warnings in the future that will be brilliant for you. good luck with everything.x


----------



## M&M's mummy

Oh poor Ben, glad to hear he is feeling much better.

Must be very scary for you as their levels can drop quickly, so Hope will be a lot of help. It's amazing how they can sense these things.

Big cockapoo hugs for Ben x


----------



## Ailie

NellyBean said:


> Sorry I went all quiet, unfortunately Ben was rushed to hospital via ambulance Monday night due to losing conciousnous during a diabetic hypo... After a night in hospital he is back home safe and sound thank god... So back to the thread...
> 
> Thank you everyone for your comments etc on this thread  it is clear that their are a lot of differing opinions out their! As said prefiously I am sure their are people out their who are happy with the service they received from Sylvia at Sylml (and please don't tar all large breeders with the same brush based off my comments! I have only spoken about my experiences with Sylml, and as previously stated their are good and bad breeders large or small!)
> 
> In answer to your question Turi, unsuprisingly I have received to further reply from Sylvia regarding why she was not open / lied about the number of pups born / the adopted puppy and to be honest I am not expecting any further contact from her.... Me myself I have drawn a line under the whole situation and am concentrating on the future with my beautiful family and bundle of fluff  Will I return to Sylml for poo number two (oh yes am already dreaming of another beautiful pup in a year or so  ) definately not, purely because all trust has been destroyed by what has happened which is a great shame but that is purely based on my own experiences!
> 
> I am hoping to jump on the laptop if I get a chance tonight and put a video on of Hope at our local national trust park with my older boys  xxx


Hi Helen, I am so sorry to hear about Ben, I truly hope he is feeling better soon, what a time you have all had.
I have just read this particular thread and I am shocked at what I have read. Just to make everybody aware, I also got my pup Molly from Sylml and I had the pleasure of meeting Helen as we both picked up our pups on the same day. Unlike Helen Molly's mother was Ginny with the same sire Zac. 
Where to start with regards to Sylml and our experience with Sylvia as I do not want to offend anyone. I contacted Helen through another club as I read that she had chosen a pup from Sylml and wondered if our pups were related. As I explained to Helen we were due to choose our pup Mid Jan, as it transpired the same day.
The communication we had with Sylvia back in December, left us with a few question marks but at the time put it down to the fact it was getting close to Christmas and she may have been busy. A further consideration of ours was that she was not that pushy with regards to selling the pups and that she may take the "hands off' approach, allowing us to make our own decision. We had contacted her again through e mail on two occasions, and the last one she did not reply to. Once again we were putting it down to the Festive period. in between Christmas and New Year I contacted her seeking confirmation that the pups were still available and that we were travelling down from Scotland Mid January, her response was, "yes i think I have that in my diary, and the little black boy and girl will be available. We received no further contact and we e mailed the weekend before our journey just to confirm still all okay. Sylvia had went on a family holiday and had not advised us and wold not obviously be there. The Manager would meet us. We were shocked that she had not advised us of this as we were first time puppy owners and were looking for expert advice. Helen as you know you had brought it to our attention that possibly the little black boy was possibly away, as you had been reading on another forum that somebody had collected one from Sylml the weekend prior. To say we were concerned was an understatement, we had been so excited, had everything in place and we were now not sure what if any pups were now available. Once again we contacted the Manager and he advised that there were a couple of pups available but it was not clear from his e mail communication if it was two little boys or a boy and a girl. Anyway we travelled down from Scotland as agreed and to our surprise there were two little black boys and a little girl.
The Manager did make profuse apologies for Sylvia and was also was very helpful with regards to the pups. We selected Molly as you know Helen and have been absolutely delighted with her
On our return with little Molly, the least I expected was a phone call from Sylvia to see how little Molly was settling in and of course an apology, but we heard nothing. I contacted Sylvia myself as I noticed from the web that there was a little black boy left from that litter and I thought it may have been useful to her to let prospective purchasers know how well Molly was doing as his sister. I received a reply from Sylvia saying that normally customers contact her with a progress report!! This made me feel fairly bad, as I had called the Manager on our arrival home and the following day to let him know how she had slept on her first night. He seemed really interested and concerned about her wellbeing, which is what I would have expected. 
I know I have rambled on but feel it necessary to share my experience with you after reading about little Hope and the untruths that were experienced.
All I can say is I am delighted with Molly but was very disappointed firstly with the communications we had with Sylvia, even initially. She was very dry and not that forthcoming with advice and then laterly the pre and after sale experience. I honestly thought maybe naively that reputable breeders vetted prospective purchasers trying to ensure that the pups were going to a home that they were happy with. It has to be said that we were not asked for a deposit and once again I thought that was a little unusual - but maybe not.
On the contrary I contacted Jukee Doodles and whilst they had no puppy availability until later Summer of 2012, sent me a lovely and very informative e mail giving advice on the cockatoo breed itself and said that should i require any further information, not to hesitate to contact them, quite the opposite to my experience with Sylml.
Helen please do not doubt yourself in sharing your experience as this has encouraged me to do the same and although we are happy with our outcomes it has left a slightly bitter taste. My experience of life is to be honest even though the truth may not be what you want to hear, it gains trust and respect, invaluable I would say!
Molly is great but one thing does spring to mind after reading your message is that on our arrival prior to your arrival Simon mentioned that Molly's mum was Ruby and of course it was Ginny! Or was it? The paperwork states that Ginny is the mum although there is no pictures of her on their website.


----------



## Sezra

I can completely sympathise with your experience. 

As some of you know I took Daisy on at 5 months after she was advertised by Sylml for being returned through no fault of her own.

When I asked what the reason was that Daisy was returned I was told by the breeder that she didn't know and didn't like to ask. I wrongly presumed that Daisy had been with an owner since 8 weeks but had been returned to Sylml aged 5 months. I drove the 3 hour journey arriving at the correct time only to find that no one was in and despite waiting had to ring her mobile to find out what was going on. 

It was only when I was there that I was told Daisy only spent one night at the first owners as the woman was suffering from the menopause and the husband had bought Daisy to cheer her up....it didn't work. I was really shocked to find this out due to what I had previously been told. I would therefore have to guess that Daisy was about four and half months old when she went to this first owner, I am sure I was told they had a holiday committment which was why she was held on to longer (much too long in my opinion). Then she went to a lady who had MS. I think they probably thought having an older puppy would be easier for them. I was told that she was returned as she was having 'temper tantrums' in her crate and had relapsed with toilet training due to the 2nd owners just leaving the door open for her to go out when she wanted to. Apparently she was 'running rings' around this owner and needed someone take more control. 

If what I was told was true this means that Daisy spent the first 5 months at the breeders with one night at one owners and less than a week at a second home. I have no idea what socialisation Daisy had in those five months but the temper tantrums were actually severe separation issues that did not go away by 'ignoring her for a few nights'. As many of you know I spent many nights on the floor, slowly removing myself from her and shed many a tear of frustration.  Daisy was not toilet trained in my opinion. It took nearly 3 months to get her fully trained with no accidents inside.

It was actually one of those situations where you probably tell people to walk away as things don't feel right however I had already done so much research into crate training to create a positive environment and had vowed to myself that unless Daisy had any agression issues I would be her final home. Despite my research and visits to breeders, I had completely fallen for Daisy, I suppose because of her situation. In the end I couldn't wait to leave and just wanted to go home but I felt cross and let down.

I never heard from the breeder again, which was surprising considering I was home no. 3 but then again maybe not surprising. I still now feel quite let down by my experience, although ultimately I think it was Daisy who was let down.

I can only speculate about Daisy's separation issues and her lack of confidence that I am now having to deal with but her 'being settled' is finely balanced and after she relapsed after Christmas due to changes in our routine we were back to square one again and I was back downstairs with her.

This is one of the reasons it is hard as the Owners Club to reccomend breeders as no matter what checks you put in place or what health tests a breeder does they are only being judged on that day and peoples experiences are not taken into account. I am not being negative about the inspector visits as I think it is a positive move but customer feedback is also an important factor.


----------



## Ailie

That is terrible what you have experienced as well. Daisy is so lucky to have a great owner now and all is going well through your patience and consistency. Very disappointing all round though once again evident that Sylvia is being untruthful. 
As I said it was our first puppy and we looked long and hard into breeders. Our first choice was Jukee Doodles but we had wanted a pup really ideally in April but they did. It have one available until after the summer and even then no guarantee. Sylml was my second choice and thought it sounded all very professional until we spoke to her and was disappointed in her lack of enthusiasm and advice but as I said thought it may be the time of year. 
Anyway I feel as though I have said enough and I have learned from his experience and I have also been lucky that I have a beautiful little pup that I am delighted with. She has brought so much fun and laughter to our life. I only hope that anybody reading this thread will be armed with more knowledge about Sylml and they can make their own informed decision. The manager we ended up dealing with was very nice and spent almost 3 hours with us which was what we had expected from the breeder. 
Good luck to everyone in search of a little pup and please do not be put off, I am sure there are people on this forum who have had a lovely honest and positive experience with Sylml and I do hope sincerely that I have not offended you but just wanted to share my experience with you. Happy cockapoo day to you all.


----------



## Turi

Thank you both for sharing your stories - I'm really shocked and now more fully understand the negative opinion of this breeder. 

Your pups are both so lucky to have you as puppy parents :hug:


----------

