# Anyone got a red cockapoo puppy?



## alfiemorton

Hello, I have a gorgeous 16 week old red cockapoo pup. He's very feisty, daring and bold. My vet told me that red cockapoos can be more difficult to train, especially if they get their red colour from their cocker spaniel parent, which Alfie does. Just wondering if there's any truth in this. Have other owners found their red pups a real handful (realising that all pups are a handful, of course!)? Are there owners of adult red cockapoos on this forum who can give me some hope that Alfie will calm down in time?! 

Christine x


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## Grove

Nah, I think that's a myth personally (and mine is red/apricot)

Most cockapoo puppies are a handful - I think because they are all so intelligent and curious and playful. Keep loving him and putting time into training and they all seem to turn into lovely mature dogs


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## alfiemorton

Thanks for the reply. I thought my vet was probably talking nonsense! Your cockapoo is gorgeous. Still trying to work out how to post a photo of Alfie.

Christine


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## Tinman

There is something known as "cocker rage"
Which allegedly is more common in red cockers.
Wether it's an urban myth, or there is founded facts regarding this I don't know,
I am far from an expert.
Cockapoos are a delight and fun to train, very eager and willing to please - especially for food 
Although I do have a red cockerpoo!!
She gets the red from her golden mum and toy poodle dad - due to the fading poodle gene she is lighter than when she was a puppy.
But very sweet and gentle in her manner (unless attacking my Black cockapoo Ralph! )
I would say google it & make up your own mind.......


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## fairlie

Rufus was red, and is now a faded red. He was a handful and a half and I suppose he could still be described that way. Luckily for us and him we are with him almost 100% of the time and devoted thousands of hours to his training so he is now an extremely happy and friendly boy. If colour does have something to do with temperment it might mean you'll need to devote more hours to his training than you might otherwise get away with. As an aside, most vets, at least here, are fairly pragmatic type people and would not "make up" stories like this if there was not at least some element of truth to it.


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## Grove

Maybe it's because there are so many red cockapoos as it's quite a desirable colour (some breeders charging more for them etc) and as that means the chances of a vet seeing a red cockapoo when he sees one is quite high, they think 'oh yes, those reds are rather wild' when actually it's just cockapoos in general 

Whilst I don't have any solid facts on this, I have read on the Internet that 'Cocker rage' is a type of psychiatric condition which involves sudden aggressive outbursts where the dogs eyes roll back or change in some way, it attacks and then afterwards it's a bit disorientated because it doesn't know what's happened. It's not a behaviour issue but a specific, very rare medical condition, that isn't limited to cocker spaniels but affects other breeds too.. but as I say.. I have limited knowledge on this really, just repeating things

Certainly though 'rage syndrome' is definitely not the same thing as a challenging puppy. I've read on other dog forums where people have been asking 'does my cocker have rage syndrome?!' because they've heard of this and they describe what the dog does and people say.. No, that's resource guarding. etc


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## fairlie

That makes sense Grove. When I think of really red dogs I can't help but think of dippy, energetic and overly enthusuiastic Irish setters, that is the sort of energy Rufus has. The idea of him expressing rage is laughable.


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## dmgalley

My "red" poo is the shining star here. She is fun, feisty, silly, loving, athletic and smart. Everyone falls in love with her. She had even won over her teenaged human brother. I attribute her willful nature more to being the only girl than a once deep red cockapoo. None of my three have ever shown aggression let alone rage. Jake, the oldest male, with put Ozzy, the annoying baby boy in his place but never with rage or aggression. It's usually a lot of flashing teeth and growing that Ozzy totally ignores.


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## Lexi&Beemer

I've have tried time and again to find good research on this. And frankly the scientific foundations for such claims are not very solid. Basically a large survey of pedigree cocker owners in the UK asking about temperament and aggressive behaviors, as well as **** color, whether neutered/spayed and at what age was conducted. No similar study was done with other breeds as comparison. The findings are that the owners who endorsed at least one of the aggressive behaviors tended to be more likely red/golden than black. And solids are worse than parti. They also report increased aggression in intact males and spayed females. What isn't teased out is if there is a relationship between the colors of the dogs and whether there were a greater number of red/golden intact males and spayed females. In fact, the conclusions are that its inconclusive. Genetics is only proposed as a theory because coat color said linked to genetic expression. Another theory is that these dogs are having seizures and then having reactions post seizure. The only way to know is if they did post mortem brain autopsy, EEGs, and genetic testing, which they have not. 

If it's a genetic condition of red cockers (though the study lumps reds and folders together) it has to be a conditioning of two recessive genes otherwise there would be a lot more cocker spaniels who were bat sh*t crazy. But there aren't. It's a small percentage that are diagnosed with it. Also as cockapoos are a genetic blend of cocker spaniels and poodles, the poodle gene would preclude it from being expressed (again there'd be a kagillion cockapoos with this condition if this was not the case). What your vet, however, demonstrates to me is a product of confirmation bias. There is the belief that red cockers have "rage" aggression. So when they show what seems to be aggressive behavior and may not even be, vets who are believe it to exist are more likely to attribute it to this rather than looking for environmental causes. If it's a neurological issues, it would have a constellation of symptoms as that is how brain anatomy works. And in this internet world, type cocker and aggression and its repeated over and over. 

Do I think that here are some dogs with neurological problems? Absolutely. But the internal trigger just isn't identified. It isn't out of nowhere. We just can't see the cause. But the danger of vets and trainers promulgating this theory without better evidence is that misunderstood dogs are killed. I wonder how many try anti seizure medications before telling owners to euthanize them. 


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## Marzi

Brilliant post Grove about rage syndrome. I can't add to your rep because I 'have to share it around'!

There may be a hereditary factor in rage syndrome in any breed - which again underlines the importance of responsible breeding.

Feisty bitey pups do not have rage syndrome (although their owners might )

Chocolate labradors are often said to be 'thick' by gun dog people!

Colour prejudice should definitely not be tolerated and must be stamped out!

Please post pics of your lovely red boy 

NB if you don't already know it check out Tim Minchin's song Ginger or Prejudice - Brilliant.


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## 2ndhandgal

Brilliant both grove and Lexi and Beemer 

From speaking to both trainer friends and my old vet (now retired) rage was a very rarely encountered condition where the dog really did lose it for no reason at all and unfortunately it was often tied in to cocker spaniels - particularly solid red ones. 

The tag has stuck and often as soon as aggression is mentioned, rage is also mentioned. Add in inexperienced owners who do not really understand canine body language and you end up with a whole load of pups and dogs who act aggressively (or even just normal puppy play or mouthing) who are labelled as possibly suffering from rage. Unfortunately that often then ends up with the pup losing its life 

My trainer friend has not seen any examples of rage in all her years of experience, she has seen plenty of resource guarding, and plenty of normal pups labelled aggressive who are just perfectly normal pups. She has not seen any difference in the colour of pups causing any behavioural problems at all.


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## Lexi&Beemer

In humans there are reports of violence/aggression after a seizure or as the seizure is coming to an end. Dog brains aren't that different. Makes seizure as precursor to the "rage" more plausible explanation than the theory that certain colored coats lead to rage. 
Also, just because you didn't see the provocative doesn't mean it wasn't there. One of the pluses of having two and litter mates at that is seeing how the subtlest of sounds, movements, eye contact communicates so much. We just aren't fast enough or fully focused the way dogs are in those moments to notice and understand. 


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## Grove

I think neurological was the word I was looking for, rather than psychiatric. The seizure thing was what I heard also. Poor dogs! Like everyone else though I've never known anyone with a dog that's actually had it


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