# The Cockapoo Club of Great Britain



## Jukee Doodles

As duly appointed Chairperson, I am proud and delighted to announce the launch of The Cockapoo Club of GB. Its website can be found at: http://www.cockapooclubgb.co.uk

Our team of founder members have been working hard at producing a website and Club that we hope you will all enjoy. Our primary aim is to promote the health and wellbeing of the growing number of Cockapoos being bred in Great Britain and beyond. Another of our objectives is to inform and educate as to the best way to produce, care for and have fun with this appealing cross-breed. We wish to aid the networking and friendship of those with this common love. We are not competing with other groups that have been set up – in fact you will see below that we are all ILMC members and a number of us are also Cockapoo Owners Club members – but we see this Club as fulfilling a role in ensuring the health and wellbeing of the breed, through registration and our breeder approval structure, whilst complementing the information available via other sources.

You will find sections on Training, Health Testing and Member Reviews as well as notifications of Walks, Organised Events and Networking. For those of you who entered the CCGB Photo Competition on ILMC, the winning entries will be displayed on the website.

Once we have trained our appointed inspectors, we will be able to offer “CCGB Approved Breeder” status to any Home, Hobby or Professional Breeder who signs up to our Code of Ethics and Mandatory Health Testing, and who passes our inspection criteria. They will also have the opportunity to register their litters on our database to produce a lineage certificate for each of their puppies which we then send to the new owners. For the new owner themselves, they get the assurance that their puppy has been bred healthily and ethically and they get as close to a pedigree certificate as you could get for a cross breed dog.

Please pop by for a visit and let us have your views. If you are interested in joining us, owner/enthusiast membership is free so please contact a couple of our current members in order that they can propose and second your membership request. Breeder membership does come at a small cost but, we believe, results in large benefits to both the breeder and our beloved Cockapoo.



Dave Sharples.
Chairperson of The Cockapoo Club of GB.



The Founder Members of The CCGB are:

Dave and Harri Sharples (Sharplesfamily)
Eileen Gilmour (EG1)
Stephen and Julia Charlton (Jukee Doodles)
Jon Langford (Jon Buoy)
Mandy Bates (Embee)
Colin Straughan (Strof51)
Ali Shearman Jones (Ali-s.j.)
Helen Conway (Dylansmum)
Sue Day (Mogdog)
Karen Fox-Williams (Cockapoodledoo)
James Blazey (Rubydoo)
Helen Ranaghan (RubyCockapoo)
Mick Watson (michaelwatson54)
Anthony Parr (Anthony)
Julie Ashforth (Julieash)
Katie Tallett (lola24)


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## Missgvus

Well done guys - website looks great. Would love to join if I can find a proposer or two. Thanks
Gill x


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## Cockapoodledoo

Very happy to propose you Gill. 

Karen xx


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## strof51

And a second from me.

Colin.


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## DONNA

Looks really good well done

Can i join can i join


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## Jukee Doodles

Missgvus said:


> Well done guys - website looks great. Would love to join if I can find a proposer or two. Thanks
> Gill x


Hi Gill,
If you PM both members that are happy to propose you - they will give you their Membership Numbers and e-mail addresses - you then put these details on your application form.

Stephen x


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## JulesB

Well done, the website looks great. I think its great to see these type of websites up and running as when I was looking to get Betty there just didn't seem to be any resource like this with clear info.

Loving that Betty is in the pics too!! Even if it wasn't long after her scalping and she looks a bit of a lollipop head!!!!


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## Missgvus

Thank you for the proposals! I've sent in my application.
Gill x


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## Jukee Doodles

DONNA said:


> Looks really good well done
> 
> Can i join can i join


Hi Donna, I'd be happy to propose you. I'll pm you my details. J xx


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## RubyCockapoo

I'm happy to propose or second anyone that would like to join - just send me a PM!

Thanks
Helen
x


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## strof51

The same go's for me just PM me and I will send my details.:twothumbs:

Colin


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## curt3007

would I be able to join, looks great,


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## Sarette

Off to look now xx


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## Jukee Doodles

curt3007 said:


> would I be able to join, looks great,


We'd love to have you as a member, details on their way. J xx


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## DONNA

Thank you im a member dx


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## Pepster

Looks great! Fab photos and full of useful info


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## curt3007

need a 2nd proposer, anyone willing, thanks


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## curt3007

oops got my 2nd thanks colin and ali


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## Guest

proud to be a part of it .. well done guys ! 
julie x


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## Sarette

WOW!!! I absolutely love it, you have all done such an amazing job! I would be honoured to be a member and if I can help in any way please let me know!

I must stop looking at puppy pics..... argh!!

Sarah xx


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## curt3007

tis a fantastic site, sent off my application, willing to help if can , well done everyone


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## ali-s.j.

Sarette said:


> WOW!!! I absolutely love it, you have all done such an amazing job! I would be honoured to be a member and if I can help in any way please let me know!
> 
> I must stop looking at puppy pics..... argh!!
> 
> Sarah xx


pm me if you want a proposer/seconder


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## Sarette

Thaks Ali, however I have been literally inundated with 3 PMs from some very quick of the mark people! Mwah xx


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## ali-s.j.

We're keen .....


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## Jukee Doodles

Sarette said:


> WOW!!! I absolutely love it, you have all done such an amazing job! I would be honoured to be a member and if I can help in any way please let me know!
> 
> I must stop looking at puppy pics..... argh!!
> 
> Sarah xx





curt3007 said:


> tis a fantastic site, sent off my application, willing to help if can , well done everyone


It's great that you like it. It's been the most amazing experience working as a virtual team over the last month, everyone has been brilliant and got so much work done. If you look on the Meet Team CCGB page you will see that we do have some positions where we will need some more help. If anything takes your fancy do let us know.

J xx


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## Sarette

I clicked the Like on Facebook bit and now one of my FB friends has liked it too 

As I said, I am happy to help where I can, especially as I am possibly in a select group of lunatics who have a young child and a puppy... Will go look at the available positions  xx


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## M&M's mummy

Hi CCGB

We totally agree with you that we do not see you as competition and never have done.

Our aim is to provide valuable information, help,fun and advice to those who love Cockapoos and Cavapoos.

We are independent and an impartial club for owners whether they be just owners or breeders. So where we differ is that you will be promoting breeders who join, where we have decided in order for us to remain unbiased that we would not go down that route.


The information we provide may be similar to yours as is Jo's blog too- but then that is all the more better for cockapoo owners to have lots of information on hand.

I wish there had been similar information available when I was looking as others have mentioned.

I know much hard work goes into putting websites together-so you all deserve a well earned cuppa ( or drink of your choice).

N.B I am not promoting the drinking of alcoholic beverages in large quantities:smile:


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## embee

M&M's mummy said:


> N.B I am not promoting the drinking of alcoholic beverages in large quantities:smile:


Oh I was looking forward to a large glass of dry white wine and a takeaway tonight


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## Jukee Doodles

embee said:


> Oh I was looking forward to a large glass of dry white wine and a takeaway tonight


Now that you deserve Mandy :twothumbs::twothumbs:


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## M&M's mummy

embee said:


> Oh I was looking forward to a large glass of dry white wine and a takeaway tonight


That's fine- one glass Mandy is not my idea of large quantities- I think I could safely say you could have two :behindsofa:

That's not encouraging drinkies is it  just being realistic 

Enjoy your treat


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## M&M's mummy

Can I ask CCGB that you are saying about any breeders who joins have to be inspected and proposed to be able to join, as well as their membership fee etc...

As Jukeedoodles and I take it Anthony is Anzils?? ( sorry if not) are team members I take it they are going to be inspected first so that there is no difference between them and and other breeder who joins?

Whom will be inspecting them?

I do understand both have already been inspected as part of their licence as commercial breeders, however I am sure in order for transparency and that all breeders advertised on the site follow the same procedures-you will be showing that they too have undergone separate inspection as per your website rules?


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## strof51

Go to the Contact Us then Meet Team CCGB on the website to see the list of inspectors.


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## Jukee Doodles

M&M's mummy said:


> Can I ask CCGB that you are saying about any breeders who joins have to be inspected and proposed to be able to join, as well as their membership fee etc...
> 
> As Jukeedoodles and I take it Anthony is Anzils?? ( sorry if not) are team members I take it they are going to be inspected first so that there is no difference between them and and other breeder who joins?
> 
> Whom will be inspecting them?
> 
> I do understand both have already been inspected as part of their licence as commercial breeders, however I am sure in order for transparency and that all breeders advertised on the site follow the same procedures-you will be showing that they too have undergone separate inspection as per your website rules?


There's no question that JD and Anzil undergo exactly the same examination as every other breeder. The CCGB Inspectors are listed on the Meet Team CCGB page. All CCGB Inspectors will be trained and have a standardised checklist for welfare etc. they will in turn train an extensive national team of appointed inspectors so no breeder will be out of reach. 

If you get time to read our website it's all explained in full. We are not just taking a breeders' word for it, any and EVERY breeder will have to agree to the Code of Ethics, Mandatory Health Testing and be open for CCGB Inspection at short notice (within 24 hours). Any breeder listed on our site as and Approved Breeder will have to have signed up to and have passed these conditions, only then are their puppies eligible for the registration papers.


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## Sezra

Apologies for not replying sooner, I actually had a lie in this morning!  

I can't really add anything to what Shirley has said except well done guys , we know the amount of work that goes in to creating a club and website and it definitely becomes a passion!  

We have always hoped that people would not perceive us to be in competition but feel that they could join both and contribute to both clubs. We are different...as Shirley has already said, we wish to remain impartial and don't want to go down the promotion of breeders route.

Off to have my breakfast/lunch/brunch now!


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## glitzydebs

Hi it looks brilliant can two people recommend me please? Thanks so much.


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## M&M's mummy

CCGB said:


> There's no question that JD and Anzil undergo exactly the same examination as every other breeder. The CCGB Inspectors are listed on the Meet Team CCGB page. All CCGB Inspectors will be trained and have a standardised checklist for welfare etc. they will in turn train an extensive national team of appointed inspectors so no breeder will be out of reach.
> 
> If you get time to read our website it's all explained in full. We are not just taking a breeders' word for it, any and EVERY breeder will have to agree to the Code of Ethics, Mandatory Health Testing and be open for CCGB Inspection at short notice (within 24 hours). Any breeder listed on our site as and Approved Breeder will have to have signed up to and have passed these conditions, only then are their puppies eligible for the registration papers.




I like the fact you are going to be inspecting and not taking peoples word for it 

Whom will be conducting the training of the inspectors?


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## Cockapoodledoo

glitzydebs said:


> Hi it looks brilliant can two people recommend me please? Thanks so much.


I've just PM'd you Debi.

Karen xx


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## wellerfeller

Well done the site has good info for prospective owners!
Just a question about the inspections, where are the inspectors going to be trained and by who, to what standard? RSPCA, Council?
I would've thought it will cost alot of money to send people on courses to gain a credible qualification to enable them to be an authority on breeding establishments/ practices etc?


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## M&M's mummy

wellerfeller said:


> Well done the site has good info for prospective owners!
> Just a question about the inspections, where are the inspectors going to be trained and by who, to what standard? RSPCA, Council?
> I would've thought it will cost alot of money to send people on courses to gain a credible qualification to enable them to be an authority on breeding establishments/ practices etc?


 I have just asked that but not as detailed as yours


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## Mogdog

glitzydebs said:


> Hi it looks brilliant can two people recommend me please? Thanks so much.


Debi, I'm happy to second your proposal to join and have sent you a PM. Sue x


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## Laura(L)Izzie

The site looks great  Must have taken ALOT of time & effort!
Well done everyone 

I haven't had time to read it all yet, just a quick glance as I need to go into town & then take the dogs for a walk, BUT tonight I will have a good look through 

Would love to join if a couple of people could send their details?
x


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## Cockapoodledoo

Laura(L)Izzie said:


> The site looks great  Must have taken ALOT of time & effort!
> Well done everyone
> 
> I haven't had time to read it all yet, just a quick glance as I need to go into town & then take the dogs for a walk, BUT tonight I will have a good look through
> 
> Would love to join if a couple of people could send their details?
> x


Just sending you a PM now Laura. 

Karen xx


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## Laura(L)Izzie

Thank you Karen  My second one, appreciated  xx


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## Hfd

Would love to join up if anyone would consider proposing / seconding me and Billy!
H x


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## Cockapoodledoo

Hfd said:


> Would love to join up if anyone would consider proposing / seconding me and Billy!
> H x


PM on its way Helen. 

Karen xx


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## Mogdog

Hfd said:


> Would love to join up if anyone would consider proposing / seconding me and Billy!
> H x


I've sent you a PM too Sue x


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## Hfd

Thank you to Julia, Karen and Sue for my pm's. Really looking forward to becoming a member of the club! 
Helen (and Billy) x


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## Jukee Doodles

wellerfeller said:


> Well done the site has good info for prospective owners!
> Just a question about the inspections, where are the inspectors going to be trained and by who, to what standard? RSPCA, Council?
> I would've thought it will cost alot of money to send people on courses to gain a credible qualification to enable them to be an authority on breeding establishments/ practices etc?


Hi Karen,

The CCGB committee; the Appointed Inspectors and an official council licensing vet will be looking to set up a meet in the near future. During this meeting a set of guidelines, expectations and standards will be outlined and reviewed and the relevant forms compiled - all with the health and welfare of breeding Cockapoos, at any level, being at the heart of the criteria. The aim here is to welcome any breeder whose practice is unquestionable and to help stamp-out any unethical breeding; back street breeder or puppy farm. This is both in the interest of the Cockapoo and the Public alike !

There is no need gain formal council accreditation for an inspector - nor is there need to have an RSPCA training - there is no formal training needed other than common sense, this is not a legal requirement!
What they hope to be able to do is collate all the criteria and correlate a standard inspection checklist and screen breeders, - as the result is approved breeder membership to the only Club that offers registration papers logging ancestry; heath tests, along with lots of other essential information to allow the ethical breeding on an ongoing basis minimising health issues; line breeding or inbreeding.

I think that you should find the inspectors to be - owners; enthusiasts; knowledgable of the breed; conscientious and most of all passionate about the current and long-term welfare of Cockapoos.

All of the criteria will be published so that breeders know what is on offer, and they will make the choice to sign up or not themselves. 

Stephen.


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## michaelwatson54

Afternoon Everyone

Well just in from Agility & Obedience Classes and its looks like things have got off to a great start....so anyone needing proposal's etc just pm me

Mick


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## Sarette

Yay I am now a member  xx


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## Mogdog

If anyone would like to join feel free to PM me too. 

Sue x


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## wellerfeller

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi Karen,
> 
> The CCGB committee; the Appointed Inspectors and an official council licensing vet will be looking to set up a meet in the near future. During this meeting a set of guidelines, expectations and standards will be outlined and reviewed and the relevant forms compiled - all with the health and welfare of breeding Cockapoos, at any level, being at the heart of the criteria. The aim here is to welcome any breeder whose practice is unquestionable and to help stamp-out any unethical breeding; back street breeder or puppy farm. This is both in the interest of the Cockapoo and the Public alike !
> 
> There is no need gain formal council accreditation for an inspector - nor is there need to have an RSPCA training - there is no formal training needed other than common sense, this is not a legal requirement!
> What they hope to be able to do is collate all the criteria and correlate a standard inspection checklist and screen breeders, - as the result is approved breeder membership to the only Club that offers registration papers logging ancestry; heath tests, along with lots of other essential information to allow the ethical breeding on an ongoing basis minimising health issues; line breeding or inbreeding.
> 
> I think that you should find the inspectors to be - owners; enthusiasts; knowledgable of the breed; conscientious and most of all passionate about the current and long-term welfare of Cockapoos.
> 
> All of the criteria will be published so that breeders know what is on offer, and they will make the choice to sign up or not themselves.
> 
> Stephen.



Thank you for your answer Stephen and I am not asking these questions just to be awkward or poor water on an obviously great team effort. I just feel that you will struggle to gain credability with breeders by asking them to be open to inspection by people with, no disrespect intended here guys, limited experience of the husbandry involved in keeping and breeding dogs. I know some of the members have extensive experience with dogs but some do not.I am afraid that if I was a breeder I would find it a bit insulting to have someone come in and judge my set up how ever good if they had little knowledge/experience OR no official training. I would want to know the person judging me and my dogs has more than common sense and some forms to pass comment and report on what they find.
I am glad to hear you have a vet involved in helping to lay out guide lines but as you say alot can be common sense and unless you can get past a nicely put up facade and apparently healthy looking puppies and see what ISN'T laid out to see.
I think it would be a great idea to send even just one head inspector to an official body to gain a qualification and how to work to a truely independant standard and then integrate that into the inpection programme. I believe this would give the inspection programme more 'bite'
I do really want a club to work for the good of the breed and as breeders you know how people will react if they rightly or wrongly believe they are being judged by another breeders standards. This in one part I think really needs to be judged to a common standard of either RSPCA / council, guidelines aswell as guidelines bought in by yourselves?


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## Jukee Doodles

Yeah we're at Skegness nature reserve on a lovely sunny evening as we need some sea air....I've had enough at staring at a computer screen :-S No Cockapoos with us today, we're treating our two old border collies, Max and Rossi to a blast on the beach. Catch you all in a couple of hours.

J xx


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## M&M's mummy

I think with any approved breeder schemes for dogs whether this one or any other there are so many "grey" areas but a start has to be made.

The trouble I see is when inspectors are members of the club. Some People will assume favouritism etc......... Independent non affiliated inspectors are the way to go but this would involve a lot of cost and work etc.......


Anyway it's early days- will be interested to see how you guys can make it work and what breeders join your breeders scheme. Like anything sure you will have to learn and adapt along the way.


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## embee

M&M's mummy said:


> I think with any approved breeder schemes for dogs whether this one or any other there are so many "grey" areas but a start has to be made.


If I considered using approved breeders I would still also want to visit and see for myself as choosing a breeder for me is a personal thing. But I would find it reassuring that checks had also been made by an appointed inspector.


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## M&M's mummy

embee said:


> If I considered using approved breeders I would still also want to visit and see for myself as choosing a breeder for me is a personal thing. But I would find it reassuring that checks had also been made by an appointed inspector.



I would to Mandy- but for me personally, I would have to be sure that the inspectors were not connected personally. Maybe I am getting old and cynical 

If for example there was an independent body of inspectors not affiliated to any breeder or club who were responsible for visiting all breeders, and therefore the Benchmark was set from one independent body, the buyers would be more assured I feel that the criteria used is universal and hopefully not open to abuse etc... ( well although that still cannot be guaranteed 100% )

I am not saying your club will be like this but as a general over view of potential "grey " areas.

I just think a club whose founder members are commercial breeders and then having their team inspect would put some owners and breeders off.
But I am sure your team are prepared for this and have discussed it all.

But as I said will keep an open mind and see how you get on. It is not an easy task- so credit to you for giving it a go.


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## csb

I think this is going to be helpful to me as a cockapoo owner in waiting, thanks to everyone involved.


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## curt3007

csb said:


> I think this is going to be helpful to me as a cockapoo owner in waiting, thanks to everyone involved.


I would have loved the cockapoo club to have been in existence when I was looking, very helpful


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## Jukee Doodles

Karen and Shirley,

The inspectors should certainly be part of the Club - that way they would be known; trusted and valued proposed members who would do their duty to the Club - there would be no need for favouritism - as all their duty would be is to check that the breeder works in an open; honest ethical way and that the Club (that they represent) would happily approve their membership - that simple.

Basically any breeder wanting to join would only need to treat an inspector exactly as they would a prospective customer. Admittedly a knowledgable customer looking to satisfy themselves with the Breeder's whole situation - we get that daily from our own visitors ! These inspectors are all intelligent and successful adults that can learn and understand, in some depth, what is required within that task.

The CCGB is not a pink and frilly site for girly giggles - it has been set-up by a group of owners; enthusiasts and breeders who strive to put something real in place - to compliment what is now already out there.
If you check my history - some time back I posted a thread asking people what they would want from a Club - before anything else was set-up - we listened and I feel that we have more than delivered in what was put to us - this is a formal site - it is totally honest; open and ethical in what is it; how it is set-up and what it's goal is - and for that reason it will only grow. I would rather any Doubting Thomas join and add their suggestions than stand at the side and try to find fault - who would benefit from that ???

The Club's Breeder Approval Status would only be that the Club is happy with that breeder and that breeder has also signed-up to the Club's Code of Ethics and Mandatory Health Checks - it would still be up to any prospective customer to look to visit the breeder themselves too !! We are not looking to do the customer's leg work - we are just looking to make sure that the Club only promote ethical breeding - full stop !

Most breeders rely on Word of Mouth - it would not be long before the customer who visited (ideally 2 or 3 breeders - as per our suggestion) buys a puppy along with the Registration form and themselves join and promote the Club and breeders on it ! We are certainly going to help to curb bad practice; unethical breeding; backstreet breeders and puppy farms - and only breeders who feel happy to be that honest and open will want to be part of what we offer.

The whole Team knows that we are treading new ground here - but we intend to work hard together towards this goal - as we believe that this stake in the ground is long overdue !

We will continue - as you suggested - to apply ourselves to each task that we face and forge a fair and appropriate way to set the bar at one point - and will always be open for analysis and improvement.

Stephen xxx


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## DONNA

It all sounds like a good idea i know when i was looking it was hard to find any reviews of cockapoo breeders other then what was on their own websites (and you never know if there real or not).
Its a good starting point for anyone looking for a puppy and then they can draw up a shortlist of breeders to go and view for themselves.
Word of mouth is the best form of advertising i always say dx


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## MillieDog

Very good website and modern looking too. 

I just took a look round and enjoyed looking at all the photo's. The ones in the different coat types was particularly interesting. They all looked great and the blue roan particularly caught my eye. Then on further looking at other photo's I realised it was my blue roan , how weird is that, I'm chuffed to pieces, esp as I didn't submit any photo's 

A question regarding becoming a member. I don't understand why members need to be proposed and seconded and by whom. What if a completely new person finds the website and wants to sign up, who would they ask to propose them?


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## Jukee Doodles

Such a beautiful blue roan...how could we resist. 

We are wanting this club to consist of active members to make it vibrant, interesting and fun. It's all too easy to sign up to 'the world' on line these days and just become a another faceless number. So by encouraging people to either visit the advertised Organised Events or Group Walks locally to them and actually meet Cockapoos and their Owners, or come on ILMC and chat to people or by using the 'Contact Us' form on the CCGB website, we are I guess hoping that those people who are prepared to source two current CCGB Members as proposers, are more likely to remain a fairly active members.

Julia x


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## curt3007

Jukee Doodles said:


> Such a beautiful blue roan...how could we resist.
> 
> We are wanting this club to consist of active members to make it vibrant, interesting and fun. It's all too easy to sign up to 'the world' on line these days and just become a another faceless number. So by encouraging people to either visit the advertised Organised Events or Group Walks locally to them and actually meet Cockapoos and their Owners, or come on ILMC and chat to people or by using the 'Contact Us' form on the CCGB website, we are I guess hoping that those people who are prepared to source two current CCGB Members as proposers, are more likely to remain a fairly active members.
> 
> Julia x


I think that is a really useful point


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## MillieDog

Ok, that sounds sensible. You're right too many people sign up to things and then do no more. Perhaps you can add a paragraph somewhere saying something to that effect and how to find a proposer.

All I need now is to find two proposers - anyone out there happy to help (crikey, what happens if no one does , it'll be like Nellie no mates )

thank you for the nice words regarding Millie too


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## Cockapoodledoo

Julie I'd love to propose you. PMing my details to you now. 

Karen xx


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## curt3007

same here, have sent you a pm julie


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## ali-s.j.

Welcome Julie


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## wellerfeller

Jukee Doodles said:


> Karen and Shirley,
> 
> The inspectors should certainly be part of the Club - that way they would be known; trusted and valued proposed members who would do their duty to the Club - there would be no need for favouritism - as all their duty would be is to check that the breeder works in an open; honest ethical way and that the Club (that they represent) would happily approve their membership - that simple.
> 
> Basically any breeder wanting to join would only need to treat an inspector exactly as they would a prospective customer. Admittedly a knowledgable customer looking to satisfy themselves with the Breeder's whole situation - we get that daily from our own visitors ! These inspectors are all intelligent and successful adults that can learn and understand, in some depth, what is required within that task.
> 
> The CCGB is not a pink and frilly site for girly giggles - it has been set-up by a group of owners; enthusiasts and breeders who strive to put something real in place - to compliment what is now already out there.
> If you check my history - some time back I posted a thread asking people what they would want from a Club - before anything else was set-up - we listened and I feel that we have more than delivered in what was put to us - this is a formal site - it is totally honest; open and ethical in what is it; how it is set-up and what it's goal is - and for that reason it will only grow. I would rather any Doubting Thomas join and add their suggestions than stand at the side and try to find fault - who would benefit from that ???
> 
> The Club's Breeder Approval Status would only be that the Club is happy with that breeder and that breeder has also signed-up to the Club's Code of Ethics and Mandatory Health Checks - it would still be up to any prospective customer to look to visit the breeder themselves too !! We are not looking to do the customer's leg work - we are just looking to make sure that the Club only promote ethical breeding - full stop !
> 
> Most breeders rely on Word of Mouth - it would not be long before the customer who visited (ideally 2 or 3 breeders - as per our suggestion) buys a puppy along with the Registration form and themselves join and promote the Club and breeders on it ! We are certainly going to help to curb bad practice; unethical breeding; backstreet breeders and puppy farms - and only breeders who feel happy to be that honest and open will want to be part of what we offer.
> 
> The whole Team knows that we are treading new ground here - but we intend to work hard together towards this goal - as we believe that this stake in the ground is long overdue !
> 
> We will continue - as you suggested - to apply ourselves to each task that we face and forge a fair and appropriate way to set the bar at one point - and will always be open for analysis and improvement.
> 
> Stephen xxx


I am not being a doubting thomas or TRYING to find fault, just asking some questions thats all.


----------



## wellerfeller

I also have a couple of concerns about the code of ethics but not sure they want to be heard......


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## ali-s.j.

I think it is better to voice concerns Karen, and hopefully then they can be addressed


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## embee

wellerfeller said:


> I also have a couple of concerns about the code of ethics but not sure they want to be heard......


Of course you should voice any concerns either openly via this thread or by PMing one of the team. If you want to PM me I'm happy to raise any points you want to make with the team, who come from as wide a range of backgrounds and interests as possible to ensure that all opinions are heard and considered...


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## Jukee Doodles

wellerfeller said:


> I also have a couple of concerns about the code of ethics but not sure they want to be heard......





wellerfeller said:


> I also have a couple of concerns about the code of ethics but not sure they want to be heard......


Karen - you were formally invited to be part of the initial team being put together to create this Club - you choose to walk away - the moment has now passed for that part of the development - as the current Code of Ethics has been accepted by the Committee. 

The next review would be as a result of issues and resolutions put forward by members at the first AGM.

Stephen x


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## pixie

Just wanted to say a big 'Well Done!' the site is fantastic  x


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## paul1959

I need a seconder please guys!


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## mandym

Jukee Doodles said:


> Karen - you were formally invited to be part of the initial team being put together to create this Club - you choose to walk away - the moment has now passed for that part of the development - as the current Code of Ethics has been accepted by the Committee.
> 
> The next review would be as a result of issues and resolutions put forward by members at the first AGM.
> 
> Stephen x


I think that just because karen chose not to take part in the club does not mean she cannot voice her opinions,i too chose not to take part in the club but have one or to concerns about the code of ethics.should a novice breeder read this then they might think breeding her 14 month old puppy is ok but it really is far too young,this is my opinion and that of many breeders too.also you mention that buying 2 puppies together isnt recommended,very true,but you have sold 2 pups to the same home,even if the new home is experienced this is something that really shouldnt happen so was a bit confused by that part??


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## embee

paul1959 said:


> I need a seconder please guys!


I've PM'ed you


----------



## strof51

mandym said:


> I think that just because karen chose not to take part in the club does not mean she cannot voice her opinions,i too chose not to take part in the club but have one or to concerns about the code of ethics.should a novice breeder read this then they might think breeding her 14 month old puppy is ok but it really is far too young,this is my opinion and that of many breeders too.also you mention that buying 2 puppies together isnt recommended,very true,but you have sold 2 pups to the same home,even if the new home is experienced this is something that really shouldnt happen so was a bit confused by that part??


The code of ethics is in line or stricter than the Kennel Club, as a novice breeder could also read this.

the Kennel Club will not accept an application to register a litter when:

a) The bitch has already whelped six litters, or

b) The bitch was under a year old at the date of mating, or

c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping, or

d) Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons.

Copied from the Kennel Club document, An introduction to dog breeding.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/473


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## mandym

strof51 said:


> The code of ethics is in line or stricter than the Kennel Club, as a novice breeder could also read this.
> 
> the Kennel Club will not accept an application to register a litter when:
> 
> a) The bitch has already whelped six litters, or
> 
> b) The bitch was under a year old at the date of mating, or
> 
> c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping, or
> 
> d) Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons.
> 
> Copied from the Kennel Club document, An introduction to dog breeding.
> 
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/473


Most breeders dont go with the age the kc recommends,its been like that for years,a programme that was on aired a few years back brought up many disagreements with the kc rules but in my opinion and most of the breeders ive met( cross breed and pedigree) will not breed 14 month old pups x


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## Jukee Doodles

mandym said:


> I think that just because karen chose not to take part in the club does not mean she cannot voice her opinions,i too chose not to take part in the club but have one or to concerns about the code of ethics.should a novice breeder read this then they might think breeding her 14 month old puppy is ok but it really is far too young,this is my opinion and that of many breeders too.also you mention that buying 2 puppies together isnt recommended,very true,but you have sold 2 pups to the same home,even if the new home is experienced this is something that really shouldnt happen so was a bit confused by that part??


Hi Mandy,

You will find that all your concerns here have been aired on previous posts and threads to a satisfactory end. Should you like me to go back over each one with additional details then please let me know.

Stephen x


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## M&M's mummy

The Pedigree breeders I know won't breed a bitch under 2 and some breeds are not suppose to be bred till 2 such as Cavaliers and huskies I believe should be 3 years +

Also regarding the KC website: Unauthorised reproduction of text and images from this website is strictly prohibited.

So I would be careful if you have used any on your site or in threads.


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## mandym

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi Mandy,
> 
> You will find that all your concerns here have been aired on previous posts and threads to a satisfactory end. Should you like me to go back over each one with additional details then please let me know.
> 
> Stephen x



No,i havent mentioned under age breeding thats mentioned on a club in any post before now,the club just opened.i just was concerned that people may start breeding their pups at 14 months after reading it on the club!


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## Jukee Doodles

mandym said:


> I think that just because karen chose not to take part in the club does not mean she cannot voice her opinions,i too chose not to take part in the club but have one or to concerns about the code of ethics.should a novice breeder read this then they might think breeding her 14 month old puppy is ok but it really is far too young,this is my opinion and that of many breeders too.also you mention that buying 2 puppies together isnt recommended,very true,but you have sold 2 pups to the same home,even if the new home is experienced this is something that really shouldnt happen so was a bit confused by that part??





mandym said:


> No,i havent mentioned under age breeding thats mentioned on a club in any post before now,the club just opened.i just was concerned that people may start breeding their pups at 14 months after reading it on the club!


Mandy,

Karen is entitled to voice her opinion, but that committee process is concluded at this stage.

You I would say we're the only person to simply ignore the invitation. Everyone else cordially replied.

You are entitled to your opinion about breeding ages, I have heard your views and personally I have a different opinion. My experience with cocker spaniel size dogs is that they can be very capable, and mentally and physically great mothers at 18 months old. I can accept that we will have to agree to differ on this subject.

Your reference to us 'allowing' a customer to buy two puppies at the same time is libellous against us. We do not dictate to our customers which is what you were inferring you thought we would be advised to do. I presume you were talking about Michael and Jeanette Watsons two puppies, Alfie and Milo. I stand by our analysis of this couple, that they are exceptionally well qualified and experienced dog handlers and trainers. The proof is that at 6 months old these are beautifully well balanced adolescents and advanced in their training at this age. Again this seems to be a subject where we will have to agree to disagree.

Julia


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## mandym

you also mention up to 6 litters per bitch starting at 14 months but not past the age of 6??? im only bringing this up because its on a cockapoo club and up to 6 litters is to the extreme,if you dont allow your dogs to have this many then surely it would be wiser to put your own views on the site rather than something copied from the kc website.the 2 out of 3 successive seasons should also be worded differently,i have a girl who has 4 monthly seasons,one of my clients dogs has this too,im assuming you mean breed one season,miss a season than breed after that?perhaps maby say only one litter per year per bitch because thats the rules of the licence isnt it?before anyone swoops in to give me a hard time,i am not being nasty nor am i nit picking but simply thinking of novice breeders reading this and thinking its ok to let their girls have 6 litters and 2 out of 3 seasons,my loyalty lies with the dogs x


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## Jukee Doodles

The breeding outline follows the licensing regulations which is a legal requirement. I personally do not see the kennel club as an example to aspire to. I believe that all on the CCGB committee and officers have the welfare of the dogs in mind which is why we are developing proceedures that will help the dogs welfare in a preventative way not in a retrospective way.

I believe you are trying to be obtuse as the breeding ages are simple maths. If a bitch does have a litter at 18 months old, then one each year at 2 1/2, 3 1/2, 4 1/2, 5 1/2 and lastly 6 1/2 years old, then the bitch is indeed still 6 years old having had 6 litters. Whether you agree or not agree with those rules is your privilege. What we will have the opportunity to do is for an inspector to meet and talk with every breeder face to face. Consequently novice breeders will be able to chat through and clarify the rules with someone who's job is to know the rules clearly.

Julia


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## Jukee Doodles

Mandy 

I would like to say at this point that the CCGB is a formal club that is not presented to the www in a draft form. The rules that are published have been agreed by committee voting and are set for this first period. They are not open to suggestion to be changed mid term. Those people who are comfortable with them at this point will join the club and those who are not comfortable with them will not join. 

We are all free to make our own choices if we have the information on which to base our own personnal decision.

Julia


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## Kirsty

Hi All

Please stop this, we all have to start somewhere and where we end up could be a wonderful place that recognises a cockapoo for the beautiful dog that it is. 

Im cutting across two threads here so here goes. I organise the NW Poo Meet and our next one is at 11am on Sunday 4th December at Sale Water Park. Very happy for you to communicate this on your website but would ask that new attendees who have not put their name forward via ILMC let me know - don't want to leave anyone behind in the wrong car park.

I'd like to become a member too can someone be my proposer and seconder.

Finally, my husband has severe heart failure and bringing little Cara into his life has been one of the best things, on a good day they have a grand time out getting mucky, when he has a bad day she's happy at home playing or snuggling in. Life is too precious to waste on arguing.

Take Care

Kirsty xx


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## wellerfeller

I have PM'd Mandy (embee) as I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but the welfare of breeding bitches is a very important subject for a club to be responsible for, as in setting out guidelines and rules. These dogs need caring for to the very highest standard and yes it is worth arguing over as these girls and how they are cared for and bred from has a huge influence over the puppy you get to take home.
Ater all we all want the best for our dogs as they give us so much in return


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## Dylansmum

Hi Kirsty, Agree with your sentiments and happy to propose you. I've PM'd you.


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## ali-s.j.

Hi Kirsty, I've PM'd you too


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## Cockapoodledoo

Kirsty, I'm PMing you as a seconder. 

Karen xx


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## Cockapoodledoo

.... too late! Ali got in there first! Lol xx


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## mandym

wellerfeller said:


> I have PM'd Mandy (embee) as I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but the welfare of breeding bitches is a very important subject for a club to be responsible for, as in setting out guidelines and rules. These dogs need caring for to the very highest standard and yes it is worth arguing over as these girls and how they are cared for and bred from has a huge influence over the puppy you get to take home.
> Ater all we all want the best for our dogs as they give us so much in return


Sadly it seems we are just two out of a very small group on this forum that seem to care about the welfare of the mums,it wasnt meant to be an arguement but to simply point out that 6 litters,2 seasons in a row etc was simply too much and very unfair on the bitches concerned and to perhaps change it to a max of 4 litters and only one litter per year full stop,they need a break to recover from having a large litter,its only fair.I have brought this up so people new to breeding do not over breed their girls and allow then to mature before starting to breed,whats the hurry?x


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## Dylansmum

Cockapoodledoo said:


> .... too late! Ali got in there first! Lol xx


We are so on the ball


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## M&M's mummy

wellerfeller said:


> I have PM'd Mandy (embee) as I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but the welfare of breeding bitches is a very important subject for a club to be responsible for, as in setting out guidelines and rules. These dogs need caring for to the very highest standard and yes it is worth arguing over as these girls and how they are cared for and bred from has a huge influence over the puppy you get to take home.
> Ater all we all want the best for our dogs as they give us so much in return


It's a shame that you feel you have to PM a member rather than not being able to openly discuss your concerns on this forum.
After all it is an important topic and one that others are interested in.

I'm sorry team CCGB but if you use this forum to promote yourselves-the least you can do is answer peoples concerns openly and publicly.

Trying to imply that either myself, Mandy or Karen are just being "Doubting Thomases" or "Obtuse" or other sly digs is deflecting from the issues being raised and is somewhat petty. I don't think any of us made personal remarks.

We have had genuine issues that we needed clarity on, in respect of inspectors and some of your COE etc.............. 

At this point I shall bow out now and let you get on with things in your own way...................


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## curt3007

M&M's mummy said:


> It's a shame that you feel you have to PM a member rather than not being able to openly discuss your concerns on this forum.
> After all it is an important topic and one that others are interested in.
> 
> I'm sorry team CCGB but if you use this forum to promote yourselves-the least you can do is answer peoples concerns openly and publicly.
> 
> Trying to imply that either myself, Mandy or Karen are just being "Doubting Thomases" or "Obtuse" or other sly digs is deflecting from the issues being raised and is somewhat petty. I don't think any of us made personal remarks.
> 
> We have had genuine issues that we needed clarity on, in respect of inspectors and some of your COE etc..............
> 
> At this point I shall bow out now and let you get on with things in your own way...................


this will never go away as there are clear differences of opinions and views as you and mandym have pointed out in the past, block people if you do not like what they have to say or even easier take a break from site xx


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## wellerfeller

curt3007 said:


> this will never go away as there are clear differences of opinions and views as you and mandym have pointed out in the past, block people if you do not like what they have to say or even easier take a break from site xx


Thats sad Jayne  I think its such a shame that you advise someone to take a break from the forum for having a differing opinion to many. I don't understand, surely on such an important topic its vital to hear all sides of the argument. I am not posting to start a disagreement with you but just had to say I am surprised at this response.


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## 2ndhandgal

I am also concerned that the code of ethics appears to again be a very basic standard 

As I posted on the other thread concerning a club this is more the kind of code of ethics I would like to see: 

http://standardpoodleclub.com/ethics.html

To ensure that both sire and dam are of a suitable temperament and type; currently have SA normal reports, are in sound health and construction; and seek to establish a mode of inheritance of diseases (testing wherever possible under the existing schemes) to preserve, safeguard and improve the characteristics of the breed.

To breed only with consideration for the breed’s welfare and not for commercial remuneration. 

To keep puppies in the precinct of their home environment, or securely protected until the age of eight weeks, or fully inoculated. 

To ensure all purchasers of puppies are fully aware of the characteristics of the Standard Poodle; paying special attention to grooming, clipping cost, exercise and feeding. And to never leave it on is own all day. 

Never to mate or breed from a bitch under the age of two years, or over eight years of age. Bitches to be limited to four litters in their breeding lifespan, with a rest of at least one season between matings. 

Not to breed a litter unless care and attention can be assured for the bitch’s welfare at all times, with proper facilities for health and security for both bitch and puppies. (A person with a full time occupation is not in a suitable position to breed).

STUD DOG OWNERS - With respect to the use of, Stud Dog owning Members of the Standard Poodle Club agree:

To be stringent in the assessment of the suitability of their dog to produce puppies of good temperament which will be a credit to the breed in type, health and soundness. 
To test the stud dogs, wherever possible, for hereditary disease under existing schemes. 
To ensure that the bitch is sound, healthy and is tested, wherever possible, under existing schemes for hereditary disease, and is of the appropriate pedigree or quality to produce a desirable litter. 
To ensure the owner of the bitch is aware of the responsibility of producing a litter as stated under BREEDING in this Code of Ethics. 
To establish the breeders reliability in choosing suitable homes for puppies. Special thought must be taken before agreeing to service a bitch from a pet home. 
To retain some responsibility for resulting puppies that may need to be re-housed in their adult life.


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## Jukee Doodles

I will really look forward to the first CCGB AGM because that is when the members will be able to propose issues and resolutions to adjust points in areas like the code of ethics for example. The members then get to fine tune the club over time by voting. Those that wish to make a difference will come and get in the mix and will be very welcome.  Julia


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## curt3007

wellerfeller said:


> Thats sad Jayne  I think its such a shame that you advise someone to take a break from the forum for having a differing opinion to many. I don't understand, surely on such an important topic its vital to hear all sides of the argument. I am not posting to start a disagreement with you but just had to say I am surprised at this response.


I appreciate your honesty Karen but put quite simply this is not just about difference of opinions, we all know that deep down, and this will run and run, therefore people need to back off and ignore this thread if they are not happy as all it does is inflame. You hit the nail on the head when you say 'to hear all sides of the argument' ... that's exactly what I feel a few people on here are intent on doing, sorry if this offends but we all have opinions and its not all about 'challenging' as some seem to think, therefore that's why my advise was to block or take a break. Hope that explains my post.


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## 2ndhandgal

Jukee Doodles said:


> I will really look forward to the first CCGB AGM because that is when the members will be able to propose issues and resolutions to adjust points in areas like the code of ethics for example. The members then get to fine tune the club over time by voting. Those that wish to make a difference will come and get in the mix and will be very welcome.  Julia


.... although if I wished to be cynical I could suggest that a club which requires the agreement of two existing members for someone to join is never going to have too much of a problem with people opposing the current rules.

I have never made any secret of the fact that my dogs have all been various forms of rescue and never bought from breeders. If I ever was to buy from a breeder I would be looking for a very high standard of health testing and ethics regarding treatment of all the breeders dogs.Sadly I don't see this club as a move in this direction and it appears to be another puppy marketing tool.


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## Sezra

I had said to myself from the beginning that I will not get involved in any club related discussions. However, I completely disagree with the view that if you do not agree with someone you should block them or not read the thread. These forums are for ALL owners who care about the Cockapoos and how they are bred. People will disagree but that doesn't mean they should be silenced by the majority, Jayne.

I do believe this was an opportunity to raise the standards of breeding Cockapoos that has sadly been missed and I am afraid the wording in the Code of ethics does suggest that consecutive breeding during a three season period is ok. 

I do not wish to get into arguements, believe it or not that is not me. However I will not let certain members be singled out and I stand with them on the issues raised. I will not block anyone and I will not go away. If by the likes of Karen, Shirley, Mandy and myself these issues get discussed in an open forum and it makes just one person stop and think a bit more before going out to buy a Cockapoo then we will be achieving something.


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## curt3007

With the greatest respect its not about silencing Sarah, I will not be commenting further x


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## DONNA

This is getting out of hand again, my view is that there seems to be two camps here with different ideas on breeding ,who's to say your way is better or CCGB's way is better.From what ive read i dont think you will ever agree.

I enjoy this forum and think everyone on here is nice and helpful if that makes for a bad forum in peoples eyes then im glad i dont go on the same forums they do.


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## Sezra

You are right Donna, everyone is nice on here and very helpful. Sometimes when it comes to breeding there are differences of opinions...we cannot all agree all the time. I do not think we should talk about 'camps' and 'sides' though as it creates divisions where there needn't be any. We should be able to have discussions on here without it getting silly, there is nothing wrong with debate but sadly it is not always that way. x


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## 2ndhandgal

The problem for me is when dog breeding becomes about money and that will lead to breeders pushing to have more litters from every bitch and carry out the bare minimum of health tests to be able to sell their pups as health tested. 

A good breeder in my humble opinion should be doing their very best for all of the breeding stock they use and for the buyers of their pups. This means every available health test for all stock - both dogs and bitches and only using the very best unless there are very good reasons (and yes I fully realise with some breeds this does mean using dogs without top class results occasionally as otherwise the gene pool will narrow - but this should not apply to first generation crosses). It also means giving the bitches rest periods between litters, not having them when the bitch is too young or too old and having a reasonable limit as to how many litters a bitch should have. 

Puppy farmers will breed without limits and without health testing, and for a club to have value in my opinion it should have top class standards based on the welfare of the dogs anything else gives the impression of being more about money than breeding dogs and future pups welfare.


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## sharplesfamily

*Official CCGB Response from the Chair*

Having had a busy weekend away from the forum, I see that launch has definitely generated a debate. I would like to thank those new members and for the supportive comments but I won’t simply ignore the negative, as ignoring them will serve no positive purpose.

I totally respect everyone for their views and I’m sure we all have the love of the Cockapoo “breed” at heart albeit with different ways of showing it and with subtle differences. Difference is what makes our great country what it is as is freedom of speech. I know that what I say will not convince any of you to drop your strongly held beliefs and to be honest, I don’t want to as they are YOUR beliefs so it is only you who could choose to change them.

To answer some of the individual comments and questions raised, for those thinking this is simply “Team JD” by another name, I can assure you we are not. We deliberately have committee members and other members who are either other breeders or who have bought puppies from other breeders. You have a list of the founder members so if you want to check their puppies’ parentage, by all means ask. I personally bought my puppy from Jukee Doodles after quite a lot of research and this was personally the right decision FOR ME. JD did not let me have the puppy for free or at a discount in return for me acting as their “agent” so I am not taking this role to promote them. (I also buy my shopping every week at Tesco but am also not Team Tesco.)

In respect of the “CCGB Approved Breeders” status, there are none at present. When we do start the inspections and approvals, this will be in a very transparent manner against the approved checklist of criteria. If ANYONE fails the inspection, they will not gain approved status. Does this include JD? Absolutely. Whilst my name is against the chairperson role, we will not accept any bias towards or against anyone applying for approved breeder status. As for the training, the majority of our inspection will be to ensure that the more “official” inspections have taken place and can be proven. We do not have the time or money to replicate the local council and RSPCA inspection but we will insist on seeing the original inspection reports prior to approval.

Once approved, we will not “promote” any approved breeders. What we will allow is for prospective owners to see which of the approved breeders have any puppies available or have an open waiting list. We would still recommend that the breeder is visited personally as all committee members believe that you should really meet the breeders as well as the parents of the puppies.

To be totally honest, I don’t have much free time so would not be spending my time acting as chair if I didn’t believe in the club as a truly independent group dedicated to improving the Cockapoo as a whole. I always believed that the best way to affect change was from the inside so when I was proposed by 3 of the founder members for the role of chair, I gladly accepted. I know our club won’t be to everyone’s taste and we won’t cover everything to everyone’s satisfaction at the first attempt. We are totally open with our Code of Ethics, Constitution and Articles of Association. 

If you want to join us, please do. If you’d rather you don’t, then I will not criticise you for making that decision. However, the only people who can change any of our legal documents are the membership so they only way to affect the change is to join. For any members who would like to query any of the articles, please submit your feedback via the members feedback form in the Members Area section.

The team behind the club have spent collectively an estimated 9 months’ work on creating the club and the website and whilst it is not everyone’s cup of tea, I think it gives some good advice. Maybe the code isn’t as strict as some would like but it is better than was available as a standard before the club existed. However, we have listened to your views and following a vote of the committee as per the Constitution, we have made an amendment to the wording along with a change to the Code of Ethics which can be found on the website.

Whilst this post is my personal view, I have also circulated this to the founder members of the club prior to posting and they are all in agreement with the post.

Dave


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## DONNA

Sezra said:


> You are right Donna, everyone is nice on here and very helpful. Sometimes when it comes to breeding there are differences of opinions...we cannot all agree all the time. I do not think we should talk about 'camps' and 'sides' though as it creates divisions where there needn't be any. We should be able to have discussions on here without it getting silly, there is nothing wrong with debate but sadly it is not always that way. x


I agree Sarah thankyou and as i have no experience in breeding i really cant comment on the discussion ,i think it just got my back up when people start calling our forum.

I think we can all agree CCGB are listening (from above post) ,i would suggest if anyone really wants to change items/ make a difference they join the club and get their voice heard.

Good luck with the club everyone .


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## Sezra

I am glad that the club was flexible enough to amend this paragraph without waiting for an AGM.


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## Guest

With all due respect to all concerned i am quite happy to have my local council inspect my premises with a fully qualified vet and animal companion expert every year ,that is what there job is , i have had a license for over 25 years and never failed an inspection so i dont see i need to be approved by THE COCKAPOO CLUB OF GB who may i add is in its infancy ,i do feel you are biting off more than you can chew ? and again trying to be in control and take over ................ not for me x


to quote 

In respect of the “CCGB Approved Breeders” status, there are none at present. When we do start the inspections and approvals, this will be in a very transparent manner against the approved checklist of criteria. If ANYONE fails the inspection, they will not gain approved status. Does this include JD? Absolutely. Whilst my name is against the chairperson role, we will not accept any bias towards or against anyone applying for approved breeder status. As for the training, the majority of our inspection will be to ensure that the more “official” inspections have taken place and can be proven. We do not have the time or money to replicate the local council and RSPCA inspection but we will insist on seeing the original inspection reports prior to approval.


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## Sezra

Please could someone on the ccgb clarify something for me?

I have noticed that your description of where you got your dogs from has changed and there seems to be a category called Professional breeder. What is this? I am hoping that it is not a term used for commercial/licensed breeders as this suggests that hobby breeders do not act in a professional manner. A hobby/ home breeder can carry out all of the same actions as a commercial breeder albeit in there home rather than a kennel. The term professional can be used to describe someone who has gained qualifications within their role or who behaves in a professional way. The term should not be limited to commercial breeders....it makes it sound like you are trying to cover up the fact that they breed on a large scale and is an insult to any home/hobby breeder who pays just as much attention to the breeding of their dogs.


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## JoJo

Hi all .. not been online much .. and have missed loads .. but good to hear the GB club is live ..

I know I am not involved as I don't have the time to commit .. however I do like the health testing page .. will this health testing be required for each breeding dog?


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## Turi

This looks brilliant - a huge well done to all involved. 

May I join even if I don't yet have a Cockapoo? 

If yes, would someone mind proposing me? 

Thank you!

Turi x


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## Jukee Doodles

Be delighted Turi, pm on it's way. Julia x


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## wellerfeller

JoJo said:


> Hi all .. not been online much .. and have missed loads .. but good to hear the GB club is live ..
> 
> I know I am not involved as I don't have the time to commite .. however I do like the heath testing page  .. will this heath testing be required for each breeding dog?


Hi JoJo, as I understand it only one health test is mandatory.


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## Mogdog

Turi said:


> This looks brilliant - a huge well done to all involved.
> 
> May I join even if I don't yet have a Cockapoo?
> 
> If yes, would someone mind proposing me?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Turi x


Hi Turi,

I tried to send you a PM to second your proposal to join and it says I can't send as you are up to your limit! If you delete some of your PMs I'll try again later.

Sue x


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## Turi

Mogdog said:


> Hi Turi,
> 
> I tried to send you a PM to second your proposal to join and it says I can't send as you are up to your limit! If you delete some of your PMs I'll try again later.
> 
> Sue x



Thanks Sue. Have details of a couple others so no need now but thank you for thinking of me.

Turi x


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## Rufini

Hey everyone  Looks great, I would love to join as an owner 

This whole thread reminds me of when I was at uni... I was the Society Officer for the Students Union. Now AGM's, I am a master of! I ran for president of the Union, lost out by 5 votes! ack

Anyway, I think as a fledgling group you're doing great. I understand that to train people to certain standards can really cost. Do breeders have to pay to be a member? Perhaps a % of their fee could go towards the training. 

As someone that works for a law firm I have to say the paper trail is essential! I think that anyone should be able to ask for documentation of training, or the AGM minutes and you should provide them, even if you provide an amended copy to protect your intellectual property.

I am glad to see that when someone asks a question you are responding quickly and to the point. You will never EVER please everyone, and the same goes to all the other clubs and groups out there. 

I would love to help out, I do have a lot of experience with the running of clubs, AGMs and meetings so if you need any help I am pleased to offer it.

p.s the same goes to any other clubs! I'm a member of the cockapoo owners club and plan to stay forever!!!!


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## wellerfeller

sharplesfamily said:


> Having had a busy weekend away from the forum, I see that launch has definitely generated a debate. I would like to thank those new members and for the supportive comments but I won’t simply ignore the negative, as ignoring them will serve no positive purpose.
> 
> I totally respect everyone for their views and I’m sure we all have the love of the Cockapoo “breed” at heart albeit with different ways of showing it and with subtle differences. Difference is what makes our great country what it is as is freedom of speech. I know that what I say will not convince any of you to drop your strongly held beliefs and to be honest, I don’t want to as they are YOUR beliefs so it is only you who could choose to change them.
> 
> To answer some of the individual comments and questions raised, for those thinking this is simply “Team JD” by another name, I can assure you we are not. We deliberately have committee members and other members who are either other breeders or who have bought puppies from other breeders. You have a list of the founder members so if you want to check their puppies’ parentage, by all means ask. I personally bought my puppy from Jukee Doodles after quite a lot of research and this was personally the right decision FOR ME. JD did not let me have the puppy for free or at a discount in return for me acting as their “agent” so I am not taking this role to promote them. (I also buy my shopping every week at Tesco but am also not Team Tesco.)
> 
> In respect of the “CCGB Approved Breeders” status, there are none at present. When we do start the inspections and approvals, this will be in a very transparent manner against the approved checklist of criteria. If ANYONE fails the inspection, they will not gain approved status. Does this include JD? Absolutely. Whilst my name is against the chairperson role, we will not accept any bias towards or against anyone applying for approved breeder status. As for the training, the majority of our inspection will be to ensure that the more “official” inspections have taken place and can be proven. We do not have the time or money to replicate the local council and RSPCA inspection but we will insist on seeing the original inspection reports prior to approval.
> 
> Once approved, we will not “promote” any approved breeders. What we will allow is for prospective owners to see which of the approved breeders have any puppies available or have an open waiting list. We would still recommend that the breeder is visited personally as all committee members believe that you should really meet the breeders as well as the parents of the puppies.
> 
> To be totally honest, I don’t have much free time so would not be spending my time acting as chair if I didn’t believe in the club as a truly independent group dedicated to improving the Cockapoo as a whole. I always believed that the best way to affect change was from the inside so when I was proposed by 3 of the founder members for the role of chair, I gladly accepted. I know our club won’t be to everyone’s taste and we won’t cover everything to everyone’s satisfaction at the first attempt. We are totally open with our Code of Ethics, Constitution and Articles of Association.
> 
> If you want to join us, please do. If you’d rather you don’t, then I will not criticise you for making that decision. However, the only people who can change any of our legal documents are the membership so they only way to affect the change is to join. For any members who would like to query any of the articles, please submit your feedback via the members feedback form in the Members Area section.
> 
> The team behind the club have spent collectively an estimated 9 months’ work on creating the club and the website and whilst it is not everyone’s cup of tea, I think it gives some good advice. Maybe the code isn’t as strict as some would like but it is better than was available as a standard before the club existed. However, we have listened to your views and following a vote of the committee as per the Constitution, we have made an amendment to the wording along with a change to the Code of Ethics which can be found on the website.
> 
> Whilst this post is my personal view, I have also circulated this to the founder members of the club prior to posting and they are all in agreement with the post.
> 
> Dave


Dave thanks for your answer. I am happy to see there have been a couple of amendments on the club site. Most of the site is fab, lots of info and advice for new owners. It is just the issues with the ethics really, I can not urge you strongly enough to revise the breeding age of the bitches. 14 months is way too young to go through what can be a very traumatic experience for maiden bitches. I for one would not let my own dog be mated so young and I would be disappointed Dave if you and Harri would be happy for it to happen to Luna at that age. They are still babies!!!
Who wrote up the code of ethics, there are only two commercial breeders on the comittee and there is no way that something so important should be written up and agreed with only having one type of breeder opinion to go on. I know another member is a home breeder and vet nurse, I can not for one moment imagine she would be happy breeding abitch at that age?? Was her opinion asked on the ethics draught?
As I said 90% of the site is fantastic, just please set the standard higher in the breeding game. Other good breeders will only respect the club if you do, I would've thought more would join if it showed how high their standards are?
The club has every chance of being the first point of refernce for amatuer breeders and I for one would be horrified if the info I was giving out was detrimental to there dogs health.
Think of how you would want your girls treated if they were bred from and it should lead you in the right direction.


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## mum2bobs

wellerfeller said:


> Dave thanks for your answer. I am happy to see there have been a couple of amendments on the club site. Most of the site is fab, lots of info and advice for new owners. It is just the issues with the ethics really, I can not urge you strongly enough to revise the breeding age of the bitches. 14 months is way too young to go through what can be a very traumatic experience for maiden bitches. I for one would not let my own dog be mated so young and I would be disappointed Dave if you and Harri would be happy for it to happen to Luna at that age. They are still babies!!!
> Who wrote up the code of ethics, there are only two commercial breeders on the comittee and there is no way that something so important should be written up and agreed with only having one type of breeder opinion to go on. I know another member is a home breeder and vet nurse, I can not for one moment imagine she would be happy breeding abitch at that age?? Was her opinion asked on the ethics draught?
> As I said 90% of the site is fantastic, just please set the standard higher in the breeding game. Other good breeders will only respect the club if you do, I would've thought more would join if it showed how high their standards are?
> The club has every chance of being the first point of refernce for amatuer breeders and I for one would be horrified if the info I was giving out was detrimental to there dogs health.
> Think of how you would want your girls treated if they were bred from and it should lead you in the right direction.


Good post.


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## colpa110

mum2bobs said:


> Good post.


I agree. I think the CCGB site is a wonderful source of information and a big thank-you to all of the founder members for working so hard to get it off the ground. 
I do however like the fact the we have members on ILMC that have the knowledge and experience to query or even challenge certain aspects or topics as it is all too easy for naive or first time puppy owners to believe all they read as gospel ( I know I have!!).

Would be grateful for a nominator/seconder.


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## Jukee Doodles

Sezra said:


> Please could someone on the ccgb clarify something for me?
> 
> I have noticed that your description of where you got your dogs from has changed and there seems to be a category called Professional breeder. What is this? I am hoping that it is not a term used for commercial/licensed breeders as this suggests that hobby breeders do not act in a professional manner. A hobby/ home breeder can carry out all of the same actions as a commercial breeder albeit in there home rather than a kennel. The term professional can be used to describe someone who has gained qualifications within their role or who behaves in a professional way. The term should not be limited to commercial breeders....it makes it sound like you are trying to cover up the fact that they breed on a large scale and is an insult to any home/hobby breeder who pays just as much attention to the breeding of their dogs.


Thank you Sarah,

I feel that you have an interesting point here with regard to the terminology. I will put it to the CCGB Committee for consideration.

Julia x


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## embee

colpa110 said:


> Would be grateful for a nominator/seconder.


I've PM'ed you.


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## Julie Clark

I've had a lovely afternoon drinking my vanilla latte and having a good read through the CCGB website.
Well done everybody on a fabulous job, I wish there had been a website like this 6 months ago when I started trawling the internet for Cockapoo information.
I would really like to join, even though my Cockapoo hasn't actually been conceived yet!
Would somebody mind proposing me... pretty please?


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## Sarette

I will PM you now Julie xx


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## Julie Clark

Thanks ladies. Membership form submitted.  xx


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## Guest

i am amazed that you choose to ignore my comments !!! i agree with sezra regarding the pro/hobby breeders comments ?


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## ali-s.j.

Janice, I am sure you are not being ignored, your previous post reads as a statement of opinion, not a question, I expect that Dave did not realise you expected a reply


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## kendal

I'm going to bring up the same issue i had with the last attempt to create a club. money is again changing hands but their is still no reference to where the money goes or what it will be used for. 

will breeders be prevented from hiking up their prices because they have membership and registered puppies. i know that when people breed dogs that aren't KC registered they tend to charge less(i know this is different with the deliberate cross like the cockapoo) where as when they are KC registered they charge a lot more. 

what will the registered puppies once bought entitle the new owners too, i mean with the KC pedigree you know your dogs history and that you can then show your dog. 

will the have special names like the KC names of their pedigree parents. 

who will the inspectors be registered with so that they themselves are qualified to make proper judgment on the place and know what it is they are looking for. 

will you be working with a governing body who have a higher authority. 

will you be paying the inspectors or will they be volunteers who have been trained up to work in their local aria. 

working at a boarding kennel for 5 year i am often in on the days we get inspections, i take it you would be expecting the breeders to be OK with you turning up any time rather than by appointment, that is the way it has always happened at my work. 

i definitely agree the starting age for breeding needs to be increased, as a club you should be looking to improve on the KC considering how much their rating has gone down over the years. 

i think you need and FAQ page they are always helpful to find specific points of interest. it is normally my first point of call when on a new website 


this club has been started with a very narrow audience, so it is unfair to say that the club cant be changed, their are many people who have been involved in cockapoos a lot longer than most of the committee who have not even been asked to have their say on what the club should be about. i also feel 9 months is too short for this club to have been considered finalized, once open to the public people have a right to request changes and to state their opinion.


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## Jukee Doodles

kendal said:


> I'm going to bring up the same issue i had with the last attempt to create a club. money is again changing hands but their is still no reference to where the money goes or what it will be used for. Only breeders pay £20 life membership which will be used for Inspector training. Then £5 per puppy which will just about cover the cost of a registration document that will be posted out to the new owners. Owner/Enthusiasts membership is free.
> 
> will breeders be prevented from hiking up their prices because they have membership and registered puppies. i know that when people breed dogs that aren't KC registered they tend to charge less(i know this is different with the deliberate cross like the cockapoo) where as when they are KC registered they charge a lot more. We don't know but the Committee will address this problem IF it happens
> 
> what will the registered puppies once bought entitle the new owners too, i mean with the KC pedigree you know your dogs history and that you can then show your dog. They get a record of linage with microchip numbers, all health test results of parents including those above the mandatory level.
> 
> will the have special names like the KC names of their pedigree parents. Breeders/Owners will choose the names between themselves
> 
> who will the inspectors be registered with so that they themselves are qualified to make proper judgment on the place and know what it is they are looking for. We are in discussions with two organisations for training the inspectors, to be announced
> 
> will you be working with a governing body who have a higher authority. No, we are a Members Club
> 
> will you be paying the inspectors or will they be volunteers who have been trained up to work in their local aria. Inspectors are volunteers
> 
> working at a boarding kennel for 5 year i am often in on the days we get inspections, i take it you would be expecting the breeders to be OK with you turning up any time rather than by appointment, that is the way it has always happened at my work. Inspections will have 24 hour notice, we are not looking to catch breeders out just to validate the information submitted and double check welfare conditions
> 
> i definitely agree the starting age for breeding needs to be increased, as a club you should be looking to improve on the KC considering how much their rating has gone down over the years. The Committee are reviewing the CoE in their next meeting.
> 
> i think you need and FAQ page they are always helpful to find specific points of interest. it is normally my first point of call when on a new website FAQ are not on our agenda at present
> 
> 
> this club has been started with a very narrow audience,The CCGB has not been set up with a narrow audience in my opinion so it is unfair to say that the club cant be changed, their are many people who have been involved in cockapoos a lot longer than most of the committee who have not even been asked to have their say on what the club should be about.It is unfair that a few people are intent on picking fault with this brave team of Cockapoo enthusiasts who have had the guts to put together a very accomplished club format and are open to constructive criticism and development for the good of 'Cockapoo' full stop !! i also feel 9 months is too short for this club to have been considered finalized, once open to the public people have a right to request changes and to state their opinion.


I do hope that this answers some of your questions.

Julia xx


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## glitzydebs

Hi all. Haven't been accepted yet? Will you e mail me?
Dying to become a member
X


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## Jon Buoy

glitzydebs
I've sent you a pm.
If there is anyone else who needs a proposer, please let me know.
Jon


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## mandym

Can i just say with regards to the reply jd gave to kendals post,people havent been picking faults we genuinly care for the welfare of the breeding girls and felt that the code of ethics were not in the best interest of the dogs.the 3 main things that were pointed out were...
1/ that a bitch should not be bred 2 out of 3 seasons( and this was against rules of a licence) 2/ a bitch should not be allowed to have up to 6 litters( even the kc have changed or are changing this) and the age of the bitch should be way older than 14 months( well that speaks for itself) 

so you see they were important points that i am delighted have been ammended( i wait with baited breath for the change of number 3)


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## wellerfeller

Julia, as Mandy says we are not out to just cause trouble and find fault, well not if there is not fault to be found! We have not personally found fault with anyone and commend the hard work it has taken but surely you must expect these questions? The site as a whole is great, I have said this many times. There are valid points being raised by the very people that you are trying to reach out to. All I am asking is that you treat the welfare of breeding bitches as paramount importance,as you are well aware they are the back bone of the whole thing, and that the code of ethics reflects a high standard to protect them. If all the members can look themselves in the eye and say they are all happy to have their own girls bred at the age of 14 months then I will shut up. As I am barking up the wrong tree but I have faith that this is not the case.


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## 2ndhandgal

Many thanks for listening to comments so far and making some changes - it is not easy to back down so thank you.

There is still a fair bit of room for improvement to actually make the club a positive aid to potential puppy buyers but at least it is a start.


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## embee

glitzydebs said:


> Hi all. Haven't been accepted yet? Will you e mail me?
> Dying to become a member
> X


I've PM'ed you


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## sharplesfamily

Thank you for the further comments to this thread. I will try to address any that have not already been covered during the day by other members of the committee.

Firstly, Janice. I did not ignore your post. As we have already mentioned, this committee and club is run by volunteers giving up their free time. Unfortunately, however, until I win the lottery, I have to go to work and at the time you posted, I was probably stuck in traffic near Marlow on my way to an important meeting at Microsoft’s Executive Briefing Centre. I am now back home and having fed the family and dog, and having walked the dog (but not the kids) I now have time to respond.

I appreciate you have passed every inspection and feel you do not need to be inspected by our inspectors. That is totally up to you and I know you have no desire to go for CCGB Approved status. Again, this is totally your decision. We are not saying that everyone MUST be CCGB approved in order to breed Cockapoos. Apart from that being impossible to enforce, we also have no legal powers to enforce anything like this (or the desire to do so). However, for anyone to gain Approved status, this is mandatory and not up for debate. In my working life, I deal with multi-million pound companies who claim their hardware is totally reliable and will “just work.” They have put millions of dollars into research and development and yet my company still insist on us fully testing the equipment independently before we “approve it for use.” In much the same way, we as a committee need to see the breeder setup with our own eyes and get a real understanding prior to approval. 

In respect of the status of the maturity of the club, we are still learning and growing. The “9 months” is basically the cumulative amount of hours that have gone into getting us to a point at which we believed we were ready to launch the club to a wider audience. It is not a finished article. The Founder members are clearly listed on our site. We do not, however, and never will, publicly name those breeders and enthusiasts who were invited but decided not to join the founder members. If there is any criticism over the make-up of the founder member group, believe me it is not through lack of effort on our behalf. 

On the CofE, thanks for the positive comments on the amendments we have made. We are working hard as a committee to try to address the next bit as suggested by Mandy and Karen (and probably others – sorry, long day and quite tired eyes right now) so watch this space. Whilst “only the members and committee can make changes” as per the constitution, I would like to emphasise that our committee is not made up of 3 brass monkeys so we are listening and hopefully can prove this with our actions going forward. We would like you to be involved – maybe we’re not for you YET, but one day(?) – so please keep an open mind and if you want to raise a question that you’d rather not in open forum, please feel free to PM me.

Personally, Karen, I can tell you that no matter what age Luna is, she is not going to be partaking in any activities that can result in little ones. I would totally be the same if I had daughters!!! My baby? Doing that? Never ;-). (I’m glad I have two sons so they can give someone else that worry!)

Please keep the communication flowing. If you have a comment, especially if it is something you want a reply on, I’d rather you tell me so I can respond.

Dave


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## Jukee Doodles

Please could I make an observation ???

A select few posts above have come in from a select few people - obviously all with the greater good of the Cockapoo at heart - but I am left somewhat bewildered as to why there has been such an ardent desire for the CCGB to change / amend it's Code of Ethics - in light of the feelings of these few who are claiming to represent the way forward............when 2 of the above people "Own" a Club where they actually endorse that the mums should be over fourteen months old and preferably two years old before they have their first litter......also a bitch should not be bred from over the age of seven years of age - now knowing that gestation is 9 weeks then for a 14 month old bitch to produce a litter would require a mating to have taken place at just a year old !!!!!

Another member is listed as a main contributor to another site (very useful and informative site with the health and welfare of the Cockapoo truly at heart) whose public view on breeding (based on books and vets) states that it too is acceptable to breed a bitch once she is over 1 year of age and not before her second season. With the added suggestion that whatever you do must take that bitch into account.


Stephen xxx


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## Sezra

Jukee Doodles said:


> Please could I make an observation ???
> 
> A select few posts above have come in from a select few people - obviously all with the greater good of the Cockapoo at heart - but I am left somewhat bewildered as to why there has been such an ardent desire for the CCGB to change / amend it's Code of Ethics - in light of the feelings of these few who are claiming to represent the way forward............*when 2 of the above people "Own" a Club where they actually endorse that the mums should be over fourteen months old and preferably two years old before they have their first litter......*also a bitch should not be bred from over the age of seven years of age - now knowing that gestation is 9 weeks then for a 14 month old bitch to produce a litter would require a mating to have taken place at just a year old !!!!!
> 
> Another member is listed as a main contributor to another site (very useful and informative site with the health and welfare of the Cockapoo truly at heart) whose public view on breeding (based on books and vets) states that it too is acceptable to breed a bitch once she is over 1 year of age and not before her second season. With the added suggestion that whatever you do must take that bitch into account.
> 
> 
> Stephen xxx


Thank you for pointing that out Stephen the wording is wrong and I am glad that we have the opportunity to change it! It should read that a bitch should not be bred from until at least 14 months although we would prefer them to be at least 2 years old. I will get that changed as soon as possible, I would be horrified to think that is what people thought we meant! 

We, like you have used the breeding guidelines for English Cocker Spaniels however you rightly point out that we PREFER them to be bred from once they reach the age of two.

I do hope this isn't going to turn into a tit for tat thread.....


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## Jukee Doodles

Sezra said:


> Thank you for pointing that out Stephen the wording is wrong and I am glad that we have the opportunity to change it! It should read that a bitch should not be bred from until at least 14 months although we would prefer them to be at least 2 years old. I will get that changed as soon as possible, I would be horrified to think that is what people thought we meant!
> 
> We, like you have used the breeding guidelines for English Cocker Spaniels however you rightly point out that we PREFER them to be bred from once they reach the age of two.
> 
> I do hope this isn't going to turn into a tit for tat thread.....


No I have no intention of tit for tat. Thought for safety's sake the CCGB have used the word 'mated' rather than 'bred' from to clarify the timings. I believe that the CCGB Website manager has updated the CoE this evening to also include 24 months is advisable.

Stephen xx


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## Sezra

Shirley and I believe that a bitch should not be bred from until two years old however we took into account the guidelines for the Cocker Spaniel breed Council which oversees the 22 breed clubs. We stated their reccomendations and added that we would prefer to see bitches bred from after two years old. We were trying to be factual with the information available and add our own views to the article. To avoid any further problems we are changing it to two years old. We are not breeders and have tried to take into account the view of experts of the breed. We would rather have just our own views on the club but as we are not breeders we were trying to be balanced. Our simplified version stating that we believe a bitch should not be bred from until they are two years old will be amended from tomorrow.


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## mandym

I think we will find that the kc and other various breed councils will still have in their guide lines the young age of 12 months,14 months etc but step in to the real up to date world and ask all the good breeders their breeding ages its around the age of 2 years,this has nothing to do with whats on some old fashioned council rule but whats actually the right thing to do and thats not to breed from what is clearly still a puppy.one of my american cockers is 12 months old and the thought of her being mated and having pups upsets me,she is still very much a puppy herself.Asking to out the age up to 2 years old isnt for point scoring,its for what we as breeders/caring dog owners believe strongly in and im delighted theyre changing the age,i feel that will attract better breeders. x


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## M&M's mummy

Sezra said:


> Shirley and I believe that a bitch should not be bred from until two years old however we took into account the guidelines for the Cocker Spaniel breed Council which oversees the 22 breed clubs. We stated their reccomendations and added that we would prefer to see bitches bred from after two years old. We were trying to be factual with the information available and add our own views to the article. To avoid any further problems we are changing it to two years old. We are not breeders and have tried to take into account the view of experts of the breed. We would rather have just our own views on the club but as we are not breeders we were trying to be balanced. Our simplified version stating that we believe a bitch should not be bred from until they are two years old will be amended from tomorrow.



Thanks for replying on our behalf Sarah.


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## wellerfeller

Thanks for the small amendment on the breeding issue, although it is a small improvement. 
Basically the club is still endorsing breeding from 14 months.
Why is it important to you to keep this minimum age?
I can give a few good reasons to up the limit to say, 18 months to be mated, but I can think of no reason to breed a bitch at the age of 14 months?
I am genuinely interested to hear the pro's for doing so?


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## Rufini

I need one more person to refer me please!


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## Jon Buoy

Ruth
I've sent you a pm
Jon


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## Rufini

Thanks  All sent off!


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## Jukee Doodles

wellerfeller said:


> Thanks for the small amendment on the breeding issue, although it is a small improvement.
> Basically the club is still endorsing breeding from 14 months.
> Why is it important to you to keep this minimum age?
> I can give a few good reasons to up the limit to say, 18 months to be mated, but I can think of no reason to breed a bitch at the age of 14 months?
> I am genuinely interested to hear the pro's for doing so?


Hi Karen,

I will of course as always look to answer your questions - though I still wonder why you had not asked the same questions of the other club and blog at a much earlier date !!!??.

I also find it hard to understand why when those others have stated a reference back to “Books”; “Vets” ; “Legislation” and “trying to be factual with information available” being as to the grounding of their published statement, that the CCGB with the same points, have then still been put under the spotlight to answer your question alone.


As for the breeding age of a bitch - this is a topic for debate and there are so many variables that have a genuine relevance - but we must take into account current legislation; size of the breed, along with the individual nature of each bitch looking to be bred !

Widely accepted and published is - “Not before a bitches’ second season and not before the age of one year” and for a dog our size range this is the current rule of thumb. Obviously the onus is then on the individual to ensure good practice and not breed should the bitch not be of sound temperament; health nor maturity - and as such have that caveat in the CCGB’s Code of Ethics. They are not here to play God; dictate nor enforce any unnecessary commandment - they are here to educate; guide and advise. I think that you will find that our Club site not only looks to outline what is desirable when looking for a puppy - but it also goes some way to make any potential breeder think more about entering into the breeding arena in the first place. 


We at Jukee Doodles have several years of breeding experience - so we can speak here from actual hands on experience. 
We generally find that bitches mature physically at around the age of 10-11 months - they can be mentally mature from the same age too - but both are not a given - this is where a deep understanding and knowledge of your own dogs comes into hand. Without reservation we would not mate any bitch who we felt neither physically nor mentally mature - and as can be seen from our own site we did in fact recently hold off mating one of our bitches at her second season purely due to the fact that she was not ready in our own minds. We also respect both our Breeding License and our own Vet.

Whilst the KC’s upper breeding age is currently stated at 8 years - The Owners’ Club state 7 years - The CCGB is set at 6 years - you will also note that here at JD we prefer to retire our bitches earlier - at the latest 5 years old. This is our own personal choice and we feel having had first hand experience here - is that the younger bitches are so much better equipped to deal with the whole mating experience from conception through to the actual birth and then care of their puppies. Thankfully we have had very few breeding complications but those have all been experienced with the older bitches.
We also take into account the actual number of puppies each bitch whelps (gives birth to).

As such - I feel that the current freely available; book and vet endorsed age of “Not before a bitches’ second season and not before the age of one year” to be a sound and just rule to adhere to - WITH the added caveat that if an individual bitch is slow to mature then the first mating at 24 months is advisable.
Generally - the “mating” of a bitch takes place 9 weeks before birth - most sites use the terminology of being “bred from” - that can be perceived as - from the birth of a litter.

I am sure that my experience is simply that. If I were to breed Newfoundlands, for instance, my experience would be very different. So on this issue there will be a myriad of differing opinions and I’m sure all with actual experience to back them up.

Stephen xx


----------



## mandym

Most cockers will be sexually mature at 10 months but at 14 months they are definately not mentally mature,they are puppies end of story,whats the rush?Humans are capable of having babies at a very young age but they dont because they are still kids and thats what its like for cocker spaniels,i simply dont understand why the age cant be around 2 at the time of having the pups at least,none of my dogs have ever been ready at 14 months,its the humans that say they are but they arent,my guess is that at 14 months it means having a litter quicker and that means money.I personally would rather allow my girls to enjoy their puppyhood before having puppies themselves.x


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## Jukee Doodles

With all due respect Mandy, that is your opinion, which you are entitled to but it is not the opinion of everyone.

Stephen


----------



## mum2bobs

I have been following all the discussions on this club with interest and hope you don't mind me putting my oar in.

First, congratulations on all the work you have done so far. It is not easy to start anything up from scratch and it must have taken many hours hunched over a keyboard to get it up and running.

There seems to be a feeling that some of the comments made since it was launched have been overly critical and it would be a shame if that were the case.

Whenever anything new is launched and goes from being the property of the developers to that of a wider audience there is inevitably going to be discussion, suggestions, other ideas and yes, some criticism, but that is not a bad thing.

The Ethics Code for your Club has been amended just over the past few days, for the better I believe, and all because of the comments made so it is a positive force.

There are a couple of areas I would like clarified.

Firstly, do you intend to keep the links with this and one other forum? I have nothing against this forum by the way, but if you want the CCGB to be an independent and widely accessible organisation, where people who love and are interested in this 'breed' then surely people should be able to join it without first having to become a member of any forum.

If you Google CCGB it leads to this thread, on this forum, rather than the CCGB website - is that really the best way to attract a wider audience and membership?

The current system of having to be a member of ILMC etc, and then have to be proposed and seconded gives the club a bit of a 'closed shop' feel, although I am sure that is not what is intended. Do you have plans to open membership up to a wider, non forum, membership and so spread the information wider and what do you feel the benefits would be of maintaining the status quo?

The breeders who join have to answer a lot of questions which is good, but I wonder if you have discussed the following?

Breeders seem to be split into 'home' breeders who have one or two pets, living in the house that the owner wishes to breed from. There is then the 'business' breeder, who may have a larger number of dogs, that maybe live outside for large parts of the time and who breed dogs on a larger scale.

For the business breeder are there any checks to see what they do with bitches who can no longer be bred from? I have seen rescue centres full of ex breeding bitches so is this an area that you feel should be addressed and laid down in the Code of Ethics?

Your breeders membership questionnaire mentions puppy socialisation, one option being ' housed and socialised in kennels', with other options being socialised in the home. 

I think I have read on the CCGB webpage that one of the aims is to breed pups with temperament, health etc being one of the priorities. Is a solely kennel based socialisation the best way to achieve this? Should there be rules set out for how pups raised solely in a kennel environment get their initial socialisation?

Does the club have an idea on whether business breeders should be limited to the number of dogs they have? I know this may be a step too far, but is there a danger that some breeder memberships could be issued to an organisation that is little more than a conveyor belt of pups who never get to see the inside of a house?

Finally, I have used the terms business breeder solely to distinguish between a person who breeds the odd litter from their pet and people who have a more organised set up, it is not meant in any way to be disparaging or insulting.

Thats it I think  Hope you dont mind me raising these issues, and once again, well done on all the hard work so far.


----------



## DONNA

Thanks Stephen, very imformative .I think Mandy a caring breeder will consider each bitch individually and only mate her when shes ready to cope ,i suppose 14 months is just a guide and not a rule??

All this has opened my eyes as i never knew any of this so at least your giving new owners lots and lots of information about the breeding process so they can ask questions on the subject when they go to look at puppies which can only be a good thing.


----------



## Rufini

It's all so much a differing opinion - I mean I have an identical twin sister who at 25 had her first baby. Now I think that anyone younger than 30 is too young to have kids but she's coping fine....but I know that I just couldn't cope at all!!

We are all different, as are dogs. I think it's not set out as a SET IN STONE YOU MUST BREED AT 14 MONTHS but just as a guide that if you feel your dog is ready at 14 months this is the youngest to breed from.


----------



## wellerfeller

Jukee Doodles said:


> Hi Karen,
> 
> I will of course as always look to answer your questions - though I still wonder why you had not asked the same questions of the other club and blog at a much earlier date !!!??.
> 
> I also find it hard to understand why when those others have stated a reference back to “Books”; “Vets” ; “Legislation” and “trying to be factual with information available” being as to the grounding of their published statement, that the CCGB with the same points, have then still been put under the spotlight to answer your question alone.
> 
> 
> As for the breeding age of a bitch - this is a topic for debate and there are so many variables that have a genuine relevance - but we must take into account current legislation; size of the breed, along with the individual nature of each bitch looking to be bred !
> 
> Widely accepted and published is - “Not before a bitches’ second season and not before the age of one year” and for a dog our size range this is the current rule of thumb. Obviously the onus is then on the individual to ensure good practice and not breed should the bitch not be of sound temperament; health nor maturity - and as such have that caveat in the CCGB’s Code of Ethics. They are not here to play God; dictate nor enforce any unnecessary commandment - they are here to educate; guide and advise. I think that you will find that our Club site not only looks to outline what is desirable when looking for a puppy - but it also goes some way to make any potential breeder think more about entering into the breeding arena in the first place.
> 
> 
> We at Jukee Doodles have several years of breeding experience - so we can speak here from actual hands on experience.
> We generally find that bitches mature physically at around the age of 10-11 months - they can be mentally mature from the same age too - but both are not a given - this is where a deep understanding and knowledge of your own dogs comes into hand. Without reservation we would not mate any bitch who we felt neither physically nor mentally mature - and as can be seen from our own site we did in fact recently hold off mating one of our bitches at her second season purely due to the fact that she was not ready in our own minds. We also respect both our Breeding License and our own Vet.
> 
> Whilst the KC’s upper breeding age is currently stated at 8 years - The Owners’ Club state 7 years - The CCGB is set at 6 years - you will also note that here at JD we prefer to retire our bitches earlier - at the latest 5 years old. This is our own personal choice and we feel having had first hand experience here - is that the younger bitches are so much better equipped to deal with the whole mating experience from conception through to the actual birth and then care of their puppies. Thankfully we have had very few breeding complications but those have all been experienced with the older bitches.
> We also take into account the actual number of puppies each bitch whelps (gives birth to).
> 
> As such - I feel that the current freely available; book and vet endorsed age of “Not before a bitches’ second season and not before the age of one year” to be a sound and just rule to adhere to - WITH the added caveat that if an individual bitch is slow to mature then the first mating at 24 months is advisable.
> Generally - the “mating” of a bitch takes place 9 weeks before birth - most sites use the terminology of being “bred from” - that can be perceived as - from the birth of a litter.
> 
> I am sure that my experience is simply that. If I were to breed Newfoundlands, for instance, my experience would be very different. So on this issue there will be a myriad of differing opinions and I’m sure all with actual experience to back them up.
> 
> Stephen xx


Thank you Stephen,
First of all I have not questioned any other club or blog as no other club is claiming to be the official club regarding registration of cockapoos puppies/litters. As the " Official" club you have been given a great opportunity to raise the bar as far as guidelines and rules go. Its a shame this hasn't been taken.

I too speak from "actual hands on experience" and I know bitches CAN cycle every 3 to 4 months, this could make for a very young bitch having a second season. As for the 'not before a year' rule, this is just plain cruel no dog, what ever the breed is physically or mentally mature to be bred from at 12 months. I can see no situation where this could be seen as acceptable. Anyone breeding from a bitch this young is only doing so for their own gain.

IMO 14 month old bitches are also immature in many ways. I know breeders can use their own knowledge and experience to judge each bitch individually BUT why not just give them another 4 months? Would it really hurt? I think it would be a great example to set for others to follow and learn by.
I know just how much your members care for and love their dogs and by setting a higher breeding age for bitches this care and concern would be carried over to the girls producing our wonderful pets.
What's wrong with being the best club out there for breeders to consult, with the highest standards and expectations for welfare? 

I will now sadly leave this subject alone now as it is oviously a 'dead horse'

My opinion is that the only reason an 18 month breeding rule couldn't be bought in is a financial one, I have tried and read your posts but can find no other reason to be in a rush to get a bitch of 14 months mated and in welp.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.


----------



## Jukee Doodles

mum2bobs said:


> I have been following all the discussions on this club with interest and hope you don't mind me putting my oar in.
> 
> First, congratulations on all the work you have done so far. It is not easy to start anything up from scratch and it must have taken many hours hunched over a keyboard to get it up and running.
> 
> There seems to be a feeling that some of the comments made since it was launched have been overly critical and it would be a shame if that were the case.
> 
> Whenever anything new is launched and goes from being the property of the developers to that of a wider audience there is inevitably going to be discussion, suggestions, other ideas and yes, some criticism, but that is not a bad thing.
> 
> The Ethics Code for your Club has been amended just over the past few days, for the better I believe, and all because of the comments made so it is a positive force.
> 
> There are a couple of areas I would like clarified.
> 
> Firstly, do you intend to keep the links with this and one other forum? I have nothing against this forum by the way, but if you want the CCGB to be an independent and widely accessible organisation, where people who love and are interested in this 'breed' then surely people should be able to join it without first having to become a member of any forum.The forums' are just the first port of call, as more and more Group Walks and Organised events are scheduled around the country we will encourage prospective members meet both active members and their Cockapoos face to face. Proposals will then result from those meetings.
> 
> If you Google CCGB it leads to this thread, on this forum, rather than the CCGB website - is that really the best way to attract a wider audience and membership? As always with search engines it takes a couple of weeks to filter up the listings. As the site only went live at the weekend we will have to be a little more patient. The CCGB have appointed a very well qualified computer 'techy' as Website Manager so I guess it will be his job to adjust these issues as time goes by.
> 
> The current system of having to be a member of ILMC etc, and then have to be proposed and seconded gives the club a bit of a 'closed shop' feel, although I am sure that is not what is intended. Do you have plans to open membership up to a wider, non forum, membership and so spread the information wider and what do you feel the benefits would be of maintaining the status quo?This refers partly to above. The ethos is that it is very easy in our society today to sign up to a myriad of clubs, shopping, forums etc etc without and human contact what so ever. As such it is easy end up with a faceless number of dormant members. What we slowly want to encourage are active members that are genuinely interested and love Cockapoos. If a prospective member has to make some sort of contact or indeed get their coat on and go for a walk to find proposers then that shows good intent.
> 
> The breeders who join have to answer a lot of questions which is good, but I wonder if you have discussed the following?
> 
> Breeders seem to be split into 'home' breeders who have one or two pets, living in the house that the owner wishes to breed from. There is then the 'business' breeder, who may have a larger number of dogs, that maybe live outside for large parts of the time and who breed dogs on a larger scale.
> 
> For the business breeder are there any checks to see what they do with bitches who can no longer be bred from? I have seen rescue centres full of ex breeding bitches so is this an area that you feel should be addressed and laid down in the Code of Ethics? This is an interesting point, that that I will put to the CCGB Committee.
> 
> Your breeders membership questionnaire mentions puppy socialisation, one option being ' housed and socialised in kennels', with other options being socialised in the home. This and several other questions in the application form are there to assess whether the applicant is suitable for acceptance by the club.
> 
> I think I have read on the CCGB webpage that one of the aims is to breed pups with temperament, health etc being one of the priorities. Is a solely kennel based socialisation the best way to achieve this? Should there be rules set out for how pups raised solely in a kennel environment get their initial socialisation?This refers to the question above as no solely kennel socialisation is not appropriate or accepted.
> 
> Does the club have an idea on whether business breeders should be limited to the number of dogs they have? I know this may be a step too far, but is there a danger that some breeder memberships could be issued to an organisation that is little more than a conveyor belt of pups who never get to see the inside of a house? A licensed breeder will be licensed for a set number of breeding bitches. The CCGB Inspectors will have to have sight of this document and will report to the club the maximum permitted number of litters in any 12 month period. Anyone not licensed can only have 4 litters in any 12 month period.
> 
> Finally, I have used the terms business breeder solely to distinguish between a person who breeds the odd litter from their pet and people who have a more organised set up, it is not meant in any way to be disparaging or insulting.
> 
> Thats it I think  Hope you dont mind me raising these issues, and once again, well done on all the hard work so far.


Thank you for your post, which raises some very interesting points, and thank you for the way that you have raised them. I have highlighted my personal interpretation as answers.

Julia x


----------



## M&M's mummy

Well all the Ethics aside ..I am interested to see if lots of breeders join-so that there will be a central base

Whilst we already know about JD and Lola whom are team members- I will be interested to see what other breeders sign up-as sure there will be ones I haven't even heard of.


Apart from JD and Lola whom I presume will be the first to be inspected and will be the Guinea Pigs for the New inspectors to put their newly acquired skills to the test  have you had any other interest? though do appreciate you have only been live for a few days -but sure as JD is a breeder must network already with others.


----------



## wellerfeller

Lola is not part of the club, it was my mistake in thinking she was.
That leaves JD and Anzils as breeders involved in the club.
Sorry Katie, I did not mean for your name to come up and apologise.


----------



## M&M's mummy

wellerfeller said:


> Lola is not part of the club, it was my mistake in thinking she was.
> That leaves JD and Anzils as breeders involved in the club.
> Sorry Katie, I did not mean for your name to come up and apologise.


 Oh she is on their meet our team list? oh ok-thanks for making that clear


----------



## mum2bobs

Hi Julia and thanks for the response, hope you dont mind me picking up on some of them.

The way the membership is limited makes the whole thing limited in my view, but I appreciate your comments about people joining a myriad of things and then not really doing anything with them.

This method of membership though could encourage just that. If people don't want (for whatever reason) to be an active member of a forum, they will have to join one just to get membership of CCGB. They may never post anything on here after that membership is acheived.

The walks are not going to be attended by everyone for whatever reason, so it does lead to forum membership being the main opt in method. 

I appreciate that it takes time for all the search bots to find a new website etc, but there will still be limited routes for membership and that could affect the way the club grows in my view.

Thanks for taking note of the ex breeding bitches question, it is a major problem I think and if the club can do something to ensure their welfare it will be a major step forward.

Thanks too for the clarification regarding the housing, it is good to know that solely kennel housing is not considered acceptable by the club.

I think you may have misunderstood my question regarding the number of dogs a breeder can have.

I was referring not to the number of pups being born but to the adult dogs used. I am a bit concerned that a breeder could have a lot of dogs and so is unable to give really good quality care to them.

It seems to me (I am a none breeder I hasten to add and so have no experience to fall back on), that there must be a limit where individual care for the dog becomes either limited or impossible due to the fact that more than one bitch is due to whelp at the same time for example.

Depending on the frequency of an inspectors visit this may be a loophole some may take advantage of to the detriment of the animals.

My local council does not limit the number of breeding bitches that can be held, it just states that a licence is needed if the breeder intends to produce 5 litters or more a year so it is very open ended.

If that has been covered on your website then apologies, but I havent found it


----------



## M&M's mummy

mum2bobs said:


> Hi Julia and thanks for the response, hope you dont mind me picking up on some of them.
> 
> The way the membership is limited makes the whole thing limited in my view, but I appreciate your comments about people joining a myriad of things and then not really doing anything with them.
> 
> This method of membership though could encourage just that. If people don't want (for whatever reason) to be an active member of a forum, they will have to join one just to get membership of CCGB. They may never post anything on here after that membership is acheived.
> 
> The walks are not going to be attended by everyone for whatever reason, so it does lead to forum membership being the main opt in method.
> 
> I appreciate that it takes time for all the search bots to find a new website etc, but there will still be limited routes for membership and that could affect the way the club grows in my view.
> 
> Thanks for taking note of the ex breeding bitches question, it is a major problem I think and if the club can do something to ensure their welfare it will be a major step forward.
> 
> Thanks too for the clarification regarding the housing, it is good to know that solely kennel housing is not considered acceptable by the club.
> 
> I think you may have misunderstood my question regarding the number of dogs a breeder can have.
> 
> *I was referring not to the number of pups being born but to the adult dogs used. I am a bit concerned that a breeder could have a lot of dogs and so is unable to give really good quality care to them.
> 
> It seems to me (I am a none breeder I hasten to add and so have no experience to fall back on), that there must be a limit where individual care for the dog becomes either limited or impossible due to the fact that more than one bitch is due to whelp at the same time for example.
> *
> Depending on the frequency of an inspectors visit this may be a loophole some may take advantage of to the detriment of the animals.
> 
> My local council does not limit the number of breeding bitches that can be held, it just states that a licence is needed if the breeder intends to produce 5 litters or more a year so it is very open ended.
> 
> If that has been covered on your website then apologies, but I havent found it





What would you consider a lot of breeding dogs to be mum2bobs?


----------



## mum2bobs

To be honest I have no idea - that is why I am raising it so that people with more experience than me can say if there is a potential problem or not.

Is there a cut off point when breeding stops being a caring experience that the dogs can be nurtured through and becomes instead a bit of a conveyor belt where the top notch best care can't always be given because there are bitches whelping at the same time, or am I just making too much of it lol!


----------



## Jukee Doodles

mum2bobs said:


> Hi Julia and thanks for the response, hope you dont mind me picking up on some of them.
> 
> The way the membership is limited makes the whole thing limited in my view, but I appreciate your comments about people joining a myriad of things and then not really doing anything with them.
> 
> This method of membership though could encourage just that. If people don't want (for whatever reason) to be an active member of a forum, they will have to join one just to get membership of CCGB. They may never post anything on here after that membership is acheived.
> 
> The walks are not going to be attended by everyone for whatever reason, so it does lead to forum membership being the main opt in method.
> 
> I appreciate that it takes time for all the search bots to find a new website etc, but there will still be limited routes for membership and that could affect the way the club grows in my view.
> 
> Thanks for taking note of the ex breeding bitches question, it is a major problem I think and if the club can do something to ensure their welfare it will be a major step forward.
> 
> Thanks too for the clarification regarding the housing, it is good to know that solely kennel housing is not considered acceptable by the club.
> 
> I think you may have misunderstood my question regarding the number of dogs a breeder can have.
> 
> I was referring not to the number of pups being born but to the adult dogs used. I am a bit concerned that a breeder could have a lot of dogs and so is unable to give really good quality care to them.
> 
> It seems to me (I am a none breeder I hasten to add and so have no experience to fall back on), that there must be a limit where individual care for the dog becomes either limited or impossible due to the fact that more than one bitch is due to whelp at the same time for example.
> 
> Depending on the frequency of an inspectors visit this may be a loophole some may take advantage of to the detriment of the animals.
> 
> My local council does not limit the number of breeding bitches that can be held, it just states that a licence is needed if the breeder intends to produce 5 litters or more a year so it is very open ended.
> 
> If that has been covered on your website then apologies, but I havent found it


Yes I did misunderstand your question. The area of assessing the suitability of the premises and the person to breed the current number of adult dogs comes under the banner of the CCGB Inspectors report. The CCGB Committee are taking the set-up of the Inspectors protocol very seriously and are in discussions a present with an organisation with regard to the animal welfare training of the Inspectors. If the council does not put a restriction on the numbers then the Inspectors report will be taken into consideration along with the breeder application in a Committee Meeting. Sadly the CCGB cannot be a fly on the wall in every situation but they wish to do their best not to condone back/street breeders or puppy farms. 

I hope this answers your question.

Julia x


----------



## mandym

mum2bobs said:


> To be honest I have no idea - that is why I am raising it so that people with more experience than me can say if there is a potential problem or not.
> 
> Is there a cut off point when breeding stops being a caring experience that the dogs can be nurtured through and becomes instead a bit of a conveyor belt where the top notch best care can't always be given because there are bitches whelping at the same time, or am I just making too much of it lol!



No i dont think you are making too much of it,its lovely to see that someone cares so much about the welfare of the breeding dogs.I also think there should be a limit,large groups of dogs cant possibly get the tender loving care that smaller group in kennels or home raised dogs do.A litter can be hard work although rewarding but when there are too many its simply impossible to give them the care a small group recieves,so 
yes for this reason i definately think there should be a limit,their welfare should come before anything including the money that can be made x


----------



## mum2bobs

Jukee Doodles said:


> Yes I did misunderstand your question. The area of assessing the suitability of the premises and the person to breed the current number of adult dogs comes under the banner of the CCGB Inspectors report. The CCGB Committee are taking the set-up of the Inspectors protocol very seriously and are in discussions a present with an organisation with regard to the animal welfare training of the Inspectors. If the council does not put a restriction on the numbers then the Inspectors report will be taken into consideration along with the breeder application in a Committee Meeting. Sadly the CCGB cannot be a fly on the wall in every situation but they wish to do their best not to condone back/street breeders or puppy farms.
> 
> I hope this answers your question.
> 
> Julia x


It does Julia, and again thanks for the clarification. I think it is great to see that official training is being considered for the Inspectors.

You say *" If the council does not put a restriction on the numbers then the Inspectors report will be taken into consideration along with the breeder application in a Committee Meeting."*

It is maybe an area where the Inspectors should be asked to pay attention to as it is potentially open to abuse. I take your point that you can't be a fly on the wall, you can though set out clear and firm guidelines to try and avoid the back street breeders we all dislike so much.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my queries, and well done on the work so far.


----------



## michaelwatson54

mandym said:


> No i dont think you are making too much of it,its lovely to see that someone cares so much about the welfare of the breeding dogs.I also think there should be a limit,large groups of dogs cant possibly get the tender loving care that smaller group in kennels or home raised dogs do.A litter can be hard work although rewarding but when there are too many its simply impossible to give them the care a small group recieves,so
> yes for this reason i definately think there should be a limit,their welfare should come before anything including the money that can be made x


Hi Mandy

So what do you think the limit should be on breeding bitches a breeder should have? how many litter's do you consider to many for professional people to take care of?

When I was in the RAF I was in charge of the biggest dog section in the RAF. I had 36 German Shepherd's and 6 Detection Dogs, Springer's, Lab's etc 

I also had a boarding facility for up to 12 dog's and these kennel's were full 24/7 365 day's of the year. 

I was also responsible for overseeing 6 smaller units that had between 4 & 6 dog's.

I was inspected once a month by my Boss, twice a year by the Station Commander and Twice a year by the Provost Marshal's Dog Inspector. All my dogs had to undergo an operational evaluation every 6 weeks....I never failed an Evaluation or Inspection. 

I had two kennelmaid's to help with the every day running of the kennels I was responsible for all the health and welfare plus the ongoing training of all dogs under my charge not to mention the supervision of 36 RAF Police Dog Handler's and all their continuation training.

I guess what I'm getting at is its very hard to quantify just how much work is to much for professional people who are very experienced driven people totally dedicated to their job/profession/dogs.

You sound very much like a very caring person who has the Cockapoo and its breeding at heart...as you will have read the CCGB are talking to establishments to train our inspector's! perhaps a position you may consider in the future I'm sure Ali could do with some help in covering Scotland.

Mick


----------



## 2ndhandgal

Just to clarify your figures Mick - that would then be yourself and two staff in the kennels with the majority of the 36 dogs having their own handlers?

To me that is a very different situation to a kennel full of breeding dogs handled and cared for by only a few people?

I do not know what the optimum number of dogs is but I fail to see how when there are large numbers of dogs each one can possibly receive as much care and individual attention as if a smaller number was kept.


----------



## mum2bobs

Hey Mick, were you a Snowdrop?


----------



## mandym

michaelwatson54 said:


> Hi Mandy
> 
> So what do you think the limit should be on breeding bitches a breeder should have? how many litter's do you consider to many for professional people to take care of?
> 
> When I was in the RAF I was in charge of the biggest dog section in the RAF. I had 36 German Shepherd's and 6 Detection Dogs, Springer's, Lab's etc
> 
> I also had a boarding facility for up to 12 dog's and these kennel's were full 24/7 365 day's of the year.
> 
> I was also responsible for overseeing 6 smaller units that had between 4 & 6 dog's.
> 
> I was inspected once a month by my Boss, twice a year by the Station Commander and Twice a year by the Provost Marshal's Dog Inspector. All my dogs had to undergo an operational evaluation every 6 weeks....I never failed an Evaluation or Inspection.
> 
> I had two kennelmaid's to help with the every day running of the kennels I was responsible for all the health and welfare plus the ongoing training of all dogs under my charge not to mention the supervision of 36 RAF Police Dog Handler's and all their continuation training.
> 
> I guess what I'm getting at is its very hard to quantify just how much work is to much for professional people who are very experienced driven people totally dedicated to their job/profession/dogs.
> 
> You sound very much like a very caring person who has the Cockapoo and its breeding at heart...as you will have read the CCGB are talking to establishments to train our inspector's! perhaps a position you may consider in the future I'm sure Ali could do with some help in covering Scotland.
> 
> Mick



Wow thats a lot of dogs,what a great job to have to,i really think these dogs are amazing!! although thats a large number of dogs,these dogs are working dogs,spending a lot of their time using up lots of energy doing the job they are trained to do and of course there arent lots of litters of pups,i think with several litters and a large amount of dogs then a i should imagine that lots of pairs of hands would be required.I have no idea what figure i would class as too much but if there are too many dogs to get off the lead walks several times a day and human contact most of the day then there are too many.xxx


----------



## michaelwatson54

2ndhandgal said:


> Just to clarify your figures Mick - that would then be yourself and two staff in the kennels with the majority of the 36 dogs having their own handlers?
> 
> To me that is a very different situation to a kennel full of breeding dogs handled and cared for by only a few people?
> 
> I do not know what the optimum number of dogs is but I fail to see how when there are large numbers of dogs each one can possibly receive as much care and individual attention as if a smaller number was kept.


Yes your correct that would be my daily staff however, I had 6 spare dogs at all times(dogs awaiting handler's), 6 of my handler's would be on other operations oversea's...Falklands etc, I would have 6 handler's on leave at all times and another 6 would be on 4 day stand-down...and yes if my figures are correct that's 24 dogs that needed to be exercised,groomed, fed and cleaned out daily all other dogs where resting off night shift or on operational duty.

Yes of course its different to a breeding kennels but to maintain your dogs at peak health is the same in any class Working, Breeding or your pet...what I'm getting at is some people may see two dogs as a challenge (and that's been question on here before) but other's are more capable people/professional's they have great practices in place and are very adapt of taking care of a number of dog's.

Are you also are assuming breeding kennel's with a number of dog's don't have kennel assistant's during busy times? because they may well do.

Yes your right my situation was different to civilian breeding kennel's however that's why its important to have inspections to make sure best practices are in place and no dog or puppy is placed in danger of neglect and if the CCGB can help in this it can only be a good surely?.

Mick 


mum2bobs said:


> Hey Mick, were you a Snowdrop?


Yes I was 30 year's

Mick


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## mandym

michaelwatson54 said:


> Yes your correct that would be my daily staff however, I had 6 spare dogs at all times(dogs awaiting handler's), 6 of my handler's would be on other operations oversea's...Falklands etc, I would have 6 handler's on leave at all times and another 6 would be on 4 day stand-down...and yes if my figures are correct that's 24 dogs that needed to be exercised,groomed, fed and cleaned out daily all other dogs where resting off night shift or on operational duty.
> 
> Yes of course its different to a breeding kennels but to maintain your dogs at peak health is the same in any class Working, Breeding or your pet...what I'm getting at is some people may see two dogs as a challenge (and that's been question on here before) but other's are more capable people/professional's they have great practices in place and are very adapt of taking care of a number of dog's.
> 
> Are you also are assuming breeding kennel's with a number of dog's don't have kennel assistant's during busy times? because they may well do.
> 
> Yes your right my situation was different to civilian breeding kennel's however that's why its important to have inspections to make sure best practices are in place and no dog or puppy is placed in danger of neglect and if the CCGB can help in this it can only be a good surely?.
> 
> Mick
> 
> 
> Yes I was 30 year's
> 
> Mick



I do know that some of the larger kennels have kennel staff and although i dont agree with larger kennels i think this is very responsible but not all do x


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## mum2bobs

Where were you based? I was in Bawdsey, Coltishall and High Wycombe in the 70's - you might have escorted me out of the NAAFI bar lol


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## Sezra

Without wishing to sound dim  what is a snowdrop?


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## sharplesfamily

michaelwatson54 said:


> Yes I was 30 year's
> 
> Mick


So was my cousin. Not sure where he was based back then but he's now sunning it up in Brisbane since coming out (not in that way) just under a year ago


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## sharplesfamily

Sezra said:


> Without wishing to sound dim  what is a snowdrop?


It's not dim, Sarah. I only know cos of my cousin being one and my Dad did National Service in the RAF too. Snowdrops are RAF Police - much the same as "Redcaps" are Military Police.


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## mum2bobs

Sezra said:


> Without wishing to sound dim  what is a snowdrop?


RAF Police - called Snowdrops because their caps are white


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## michaelwatson54

mum2bobs said:


> Where were you based? I was in Bawdsey, Coltishall and High Wycombe in the 70's - you might have escorted me out of the NAAFI bar lol


OMG.... Started at Swinderby.St Atan's. Debden, Marham, Wildenrath, Wyton, Newton, Waddington, Guttersloh. Akrotiri. Belieze Aldergrove, Sarajevo, Dieago Garcia in the Indian Ocean and a few other's I may have forgot about You will have to send me a photo I never forget a face so if I did escort you out of the NAAFI I will remember you

Mick


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## mum2bobs

Oh God, Swinderby, thats a blast from the past - I was at Spitalgate! If I remember rightly there used to be dances where these two got together.

Boy, those were the days


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## JulesB

michaelwatson54 said:


> OMG.... Started at Swinderby.St Atan's. Debden, Marham, Wildenrath, Wyton, Newton, Waddington, Guttersloh. Akrotiri. Belieze Aldergrove, Sarajevo, Dieago Garcia in the Indian Ocean and a few other's I may have forgot about You will have to send me a photo I never forget a face so if I did escort you out of the NAAFI I will remember you
> 
> Mick


My mum and i were evacuated from Akrotiri during all the trouble in 1974 when i was very tiny as my dad was based there.


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## mum2bobs

I was all due to go to RAF Akrotiri when it all kicked off and WRAF weren't allowed to go where there was danger! Ended up getting posted to High Wycombe instead which was horrible.

Bit of a difference now where female service personnel serve on the front line. I ended up serving 4years in the WRAF, never setting foot outside of the country or into a plane lol


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## JulesB

mum2bobs said:


> I was all due to go to RAF Akrotiri when it all kicked off and WRAF weren't allowed to go where there was danger! Ended up getting posted to High Wycombe instead which was horrible.
> 
> Bit of a difference now where female service personnel serve on the front line. I ended up serving 4years in the WRAF, never setting foot outside of the country or into a plane lol


we lived off camp in Limassol and had gun shots going off outside our house apparently (i was only 6 months old so don't remember).

So crazy that you weren't allowed out there!


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## mum2bobs

Different outlook then. I was soo looking forward to going somewhere warm


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## michaelwatson54

See what a small.world we live in! Now we are drawn together again by this fabulous little dog and we all are trying to do the very best to make it even better than it is already. Mick


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## Cockapoodledoo

Ahhhhh! My dad was a NAAFI club manager. Many a time I was pulled out of behind the bar when then merry tune of 'Get 'em down you zulu warrior' began!

Karen xx


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## JulesB

michaelwatson54 said:


> See what a small.world we live in! Now we are drawn together again by this fabulous little dog and we all are trying to do the very best to make it even better than it is already. Mick


So true!! It makes you realise that the 6 degrees of separation are so true!!

I really can't sing the praises of cockapoos enough and nearly everyone who meets Betty is charmed by her. The latest convert is my dog walkers 12 year old neice who spent most of yesterday cuddling Betty and is now trying to convince her mum to get her a cockapoo!!

x


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## mum2bobs

Cockapoodledoo said:


> Ahhhhh! My dad was a NAAFI club manager. Many a time I was pulled out of behind the bar when then merry tune of 'Get 'em down you zulu warrior' began!
> 
> Karen xx


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## mum2bobs

JulesB said:


> So true!! It makes you realise that the 6 degrees of separation are so true!!
> 
> I really can't sing the praises of cockapoos enough and nearly everyone who meets Betty is charmed by her. The latest convert is my dog walkers 12 year old neice who spent most of yesterday cuddling Betty and is now trying to convince her mum to get her a cockapoo!!
> 
> x


There is something about them isnt there


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## sharplesfamily

mum2bobs said:


> Firstly, do you intend to keep the links with this and one other forum? I have nothing against this forum by the way, but if you want the CCGB to be an independent and widely accessible organisation, where people who love and are interested in this 'breed' then surely people should be able to join it without first having to become a member of any forum.
> 
> The current system of having to be a member of ILMC etc, and then have to be proposed and seconded gives the club a bit of a 'closed shop' feel, although I am sure that is not what is intended. Do you have plans to open membership up to a wider, non forum, membership and so spread the information wider and what do you feel the benefits would be of maintaining the status quo?


As of yesterday, the Enthusiast/Owner Membership Form page has been updated to now include the way for Non-Forum members to join.

To save people needing to load our page, the below wording has now been included:
"If you are not a member of a Cockapoo or Doodle forum and are unable to provide existing CCGB members detals to propose and second your membership could you please take a few minutes to let us know why you would like to become a member of The Cockapoo Club of GB. We would love to know about the dog(s) you have if you are an owner or why you are interested in Cockapoos if you are an enthusiast. Please submit a few lines in the box provided below. Existing members will then look at your application and, if approved, you will be proposed and seconded."

The Club Membership does still require proposal and seconding, as per the Constitution, but for those people not members of any forums, they now have the opportunity to apply for membership. All we ask is for them to say why they want to join us.

Dave


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## M&M's mummy

Will you be black balling people Dave :laugh::laugh:

Do you remember the Only Fools and Horses episode when Del tried to get into the Masons.............


So which one of you is Boycie then?  I know who could be Marlene


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## mum2bobs

sharplesfamily said:


> As of yesterday, the Enthusiast/Owner Membership Form page has been updated to now include the way for Non-Forum members to join.
> 
> To save people needing to load our page, the below wording has now been included:
> "If you are not a member of a Cockapoo or Doodle forum and are unable to provide existing CCGB members detals to propose and second your membership could you please take a few minutes to let us know why you would like to become a member of The Cockapoo Club of GB. We would love to know about the dog(s) you have if you are an owner or why you are interested in Cockapoos if you are an enthusiast. Please submit a few lines in the box provided below. Existing members will then look at your application and, if approved, you will be proposed and seconded."
> 
> The Club Membership does still require proposal and seconding, as per the Constitution, but for those people not members of any forums, they now have the opportunity to apply for membership. All we ask is for them to say why they want to join us.
> 
> Dave


Thats a brilliant move Dave.


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## mum2bobs

M&M's mummy said:


> Will you be black balling people Dave :laugh::laugh:
> 
> Do you remember the Only Fools and Horses episode when Del tried to get into the Masons.............
> 
> 
> So which one of you is Boycey then?  I know who could be Marlene


I used to love 'Only Fools.....', but don't remember that episode. Sounds as though it would be brilliant though


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## M&M's mummy

mum2bobs said:


> I used to love 'Only Fools.....', but don't remember that episode. Sounds as though it would be brilliant though


I can't remember which one it was it might have been a Xmas special.

Boycie is in Masons and Del petitions to join and on the night he gets the news that he has been black balled: Del asks Boycie which one black balled him and Boycie replied " They all did"


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## sharplesfamily

M&M's mummy said:


> Boycie is in Masons and Del petitions to join and on the night he gets the news that he has been black balled: Del asks Boycie which one black balled him and Boycie replied " They all did"


Well, one time when I went on a rugby trip to Paris, I was called "Rodney" for the whole weekend - thanks to Trigger's way he always calls Rodney "Dave." I loved the episode when Trigger said about Del's baby "If it's a girl they're gonna name it Sigourney, after the actress. And if it's a boy they're gonna name him Rodney, after Dave."


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## M&M's mummy

sharplesfamily said:


> Well, one time when I went on a rugby trip to Paris, I was called "Rodney" for the whole weekend - thanks to Trigger's way he always calls Rodney "Dave." I loved the episode when Trigger said about Del's baby "If it's a girl they're gonna name it Sigourney, after the actress. And if it's a boy they're gonna name him Rodney, after Dave."


 Yes bet you loved all the attention 

You know what will happen now don't you Rodney


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## mum2bobs

sharplesfamily said:


> Well, one time when I went on a rugby trip to Paris, I was called "Rodney" for the whole weekend - thanks to Trigger's way he always calls Rodney "Dave." I loved the episode when Trigger said about Del's baby "If it's a girl they're gonna name it Sigourney, after the actress. And if it's a boy they're gonna name him Rodney, after Dave."












Wish there was anything half as funny on the tv nowadays - or am I just being an old fogey (dont answer that! )


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## M&M's mummy

mum2bobs said:


> Wish there was anything half as funny on the tv nowadays - or am I just being an old fogey (dont answer that! )


I know what you mean- miss all the old Classics.

I love some of the 70's stuff too- have loved watching all the old re-runs of "on the Buses"


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## mum2bobs

I never really liked that. I used to love The Good Life and what was the one with Rigsby in it?


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## M&M's mummy

mum2bobs said:


> I never really liked that. I used to love The Good Life and what was the one with Rigsby in it?


 Rising Damp  yes loved those as well, and Porridge.

Although I was only a kid at the time-appreciate them more now


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## mum2bobs

Oh I had forgotten about Porridge - and Open all Hours!

God, it's like All our Yesterdays on here isn't it Maybe we should have an old fogey's thread so we can reminisce

Seriously though, why dont we get good stuff of that quality anymore?


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## sharplesfamily

At our office quiz on Wednesday, we had a question on what would you expect to see out of a Torquay totel room window. Classic!


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## mum2bobs

TOTEL? Is that an abbreviation of *T*orquay and h*otel*, or did one of your dogs get access to the keyboard


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## Jukee Doodles

Just Good Friends xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

Stephen xx


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## embee

sharplesfamily said:


> At our office quiz on Wednesday, we had a question on what would you expect to see out of a Torquay totel room window. Classic!


Oh, Oh, I know, I know, pick me :jumping::jumping::jumping::jumping::jumping:


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## EG1

I'm thinking wilderbeest but I'm too young to remember really.


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## Sezra

That was my favourite episode of Fawlty Towers, with the deaf lady..hilarious!


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## embee

EG1 said:


> I'm thinking wilderbeest but I'm too young to remember really.


Herds of wilderbeest sweeping majestically... Do I get extra points


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## Sezra

Oh definitely, 10 bonus points and a gold star!


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## mum2bobs

Sat and watched 'The Cafe' last night for the first time. It is supposed to be a comedy I believe.

It isn't.


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## Jukee Doodles

mum2bobs said:


> Sat and watched 'The Cafe' last night for the first time. It is supposed to be a comedy I believe.
> 
> It isn't.


I haven't seen it. Doesn't sound like it pushed your funny button  J x


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## lilaclynda

i would love to join the CCGB I have sent a message via the website but didnt realise i could seek proposers on here so could someone be my proposer please 

Thankyou lynda x


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## embee

lilaclynda said:


> i would love to join the CCGB I have sent a message via the website but didnt realise i could seek proposers on here so could someone be my proposer please
> 
> Thankyou lynda x


I've PM'ed you


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## EG1

Hi Lynda - your membership request has come through and I'm on the case finding proposers for you, so don't worry.


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## michaelwatson54

lilaclynda said:


> i would love to join the CCGB I have sent a message via the website but didnt realise i could seek proposers on here so could someone be my proposer please
> 
> Thankyou lynda x


Hi Lynda

PM's on its way as seconder

Mick


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