# Lion Paws



## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

*Mud, Matts and First Groom*

I absolutely adore Miss Lilly's totally scruffy coat and big lion paws and would like to keep her this way for as long as possible.

I know, I know: everyone starts out this way and then gives in when the matts start appearing... I'm combing her through every day and she's probably still too young for the matt problem but so far, so good. She's also not got the longest fur (judging by other's pics) and it's not super curly except on her rump. 



But: Miss Lilly does have a lot of fur between her pads (kind of visible in the second pic) and I've noticed that a lot of mud and stuff collects in there and, once it dries out, causes her some discomfort. So much so, that she has taken to stuffing her paws in to her mouth and pulling at the fur.



I have recently bought some bull nosed scissors and thought that I could cut away the fur between her pads with them but in fact, the bull nose stops me from being able to get in there properly - I'd be very afraid of cutting her if I used regular pointy scissors though as she is such a wriggler.

I don't really want to take her to a groomer so I was wondering how others on here cope with their poo's lion paws? Do you spend ages washing paws every time you've been out for a walk with your poo? Do you use any special kind of scissors that I don't know about? Are there some kind of tiny grooming clippers that I can buy? 

Any advice would be much appreciated before Miss Lilly inadvertently swallows her paws entirely!


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

She is soooooooooooo lovely.
At some point she may need to go to a groomer. I would be inclined to take her in for a wash and brush up. They will also clip nails trim paw hair and give a hygiene trim. It would be good for Miss Lily to have the experience while she is still young. Our groomer really likes to have puppies in for a gentle first session.


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

She's fab! Maybe you'll be lucky and get the silky cocker coat? Great advice from Marzi as usual


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

I just use small scissors and cut the hair on the bottom of Maggie's feet level with the pads.


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Thank you all for your replies! 

Marzi: I've read so many of your posts and know that you always give great advice. So today I took Miss Lilly to our local grooming place and explained that she is quite a timid, fearful pup who takes a long time getting used to new things and people. She showed me the grooming salon and they had a kind of double door system (presumably to contain any four legged houdinis). Miss Lilly wasn't too sure about this and was taking her time so the woman grabbed her lead and dragged her through on her bottom. When I had explained about Miss Lilly, she said "so do you want to make an appointment or leave her here now for a couple of hours". It felt a bit like she simply didn't listen. On the plus side there was a very beautiful freshly groomed Irish setter on the table who seemed calm and relaxed...

Maybe I sound like a neurotic and overanxious worrier but I am concerned how Miss Lilly might react: all the advice I've been given is to take things very slowly with her so as to build her confidence rather than destroying it. It was also suggested earlier on that I could end up with a snappy dog if she remains as fearful as she was in the beginning (hard to imagine but it's certainly stuck in my mind!). She has made such great progress and is such a lovely little thing that I really don't want to jeopardize things...

By coincidence, we bumped into a lady with a huge five year old Cockapoo on the way home. Her dog was very beautiful and a lot curlier than Miss Lilly. The woman said that she uses the same salon but also suggested that Miss Lilly's fur might not grow that long and given that she isn't really curly, that she might not need to go to a groomer.

As my original intention was to deal with her grooming needs myself, I bought a whole set of scissors (curved, thinning) as well as the bull nosed ones. We have already given her a bit of a hygiene cut as she was dribbling so much from all the hair down there and that worked pretty well with me holding her and a friend doing the cutting. I've had another go with the bull nose scissors on her pads and I think I've done a much better job...

So what would you guys do? Look for another groomer? Book her in and let her sink or swim? Or try and deal with it myself? My last dog was a Great Dane so none of this was really necessary (just a daily brush) and its all new territory for me...


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

It doesn't matter how good the other dogs look at the groomer. If you don't like the way that lady treated Miss Lilly I would look for someone else who is more sensitive to your and Miss Lilly's needs. In the mean time you could keep doing a bit of grooming on your own. That way she will get used to standing still and get used to it even if you don't actually cut any hair off she will get used to the scissors touching her.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Miss Lilly is lovely 

I would look for a groomer you were happy with the handling of dogs or do it yourself. The only thing about this groomer possible moving her so swiftly would be if you were in the double door area leaving it insecure as that could be a risk to other dogs getting loose and I am not sure where she dragged her to or from? If it was a matter of security it might have been abrupt but excusable?

When I first got Molly she had an initial quick trim by a friend who was a groomer but she lived too far away for long term needs so I decided to have a try myself. Some of my early attempts were awful but I keep her reasonably short now and although not a great job in the early days especially I could take as long as she needed and have many breaks.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Poor Miss Lilly, poor you - I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. Don't leave her with anyone you are not happy with... there has to be an element of trust between you and the groomer - if that isn't there, it probably wouldn't be a good long term relationship or immediate experience.
If you are happy to do it yourself, go for it. I can't cut paper straight so it isn't an option for me
It would be unlikely that Miss Lilly will never need cutting - both cocker and poodle coats do need regular attention. Dot's coat is a lot less poodlie than Kiki's, it also matts much worse...


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think I would go back to that groomer, she doesn't seem like the kind of person I could trust.

I think it's a good idea to try another groomer. Even if you are going to groom Miss Lily yourself, it's great practice for her to get the experience of other people handling her. So I would try again, definitely.


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Thank you all for your support and good advice.

We have not been back to the first groomer (although I do take your point 2ndhandgal) and I confess I sort of avoided the issue until today because of other, more pressing things to deal with...

Anyway, Miss Lilly and I visited another groomer today: we had a long conversation (not with the actual groomer but with the owner of the place) and she seemed to understand. She also made a few observations about Miss Lill's behaviour that were spot on which I found quite reassuring. 

So she is booked in to see them next week - but it will only be for half an hour - and less if she gets too stressed. They won't bathe or blow dry her and they'll use the brush that I use at home so that it hopefully feels the same to her (she likes being brushed with it and tends to really relax). They will have her on the grooming table, but with two people - one at the front to talk to her and feed her the occasional treat and one just brushing, giving her ears a pretend clean (they are super clean as they are!) and - all being well - giving her 'fringe' a quick trim - it would be so nice to be able to see her eyes again!. 

From now until then, she and I will keep popping in to the shop to say hi so that she's more familiar with it on the day and, if the plan works we'll continue to do little bits of her over the coming weeks until she feels more comfortable being left there / the noise / other dogs etc. 

Fingers crossed.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

That sounds absolutely brilliant - hope all goes well but they sound really good


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Love the sound of the new groomer. That's a proper grooming service. If everyone juts went that extra mile, the world would be such a better place. 

I can never understand why people wouldn't go that extra mile. Why couldn't the original groomer have just been a bit more understanding? Shame - they've missed out getting to know the lovely Miss Lily!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Miss Lilly said:


> So she is booked in to see them next week - but it will only be for half an hour - and less if she gets too stressed. They won't bathe or blow dry her and they'll use the brush that I use at home so that it hopefully feels the same to her (she likes being brushed with it and tends to really relax). They will have her on the grooming table, but with two people - one at the front to talk to her and feed her the occasional treat and one just brushing, giving her ears a pretend clean (they are super clean as they are!) and - all being well - giving her 'fringe' a quick trim - it would be so nice to be able to see her eyes again!.
> 
> From now until then, she and I will keep popping in to the shop to say hi so that she's more familiar with it on the day and, if the plan works we'll continue to do little bits of her over the coming weeks until she feels more comfortable being left there / the noise / other dogs etc.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


Showing this kind of care, attention and respect for your puppy will have an end result of you having a wonderful, trusting and happy companion for life. Well done!


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

*Update!*

Thanks all... and here's a little update!

Miss Lill's and I visited the groomers a couple of times and then today she went for her first little session. And it went well!!! We went for a nice walk on the common after and she seemed full of beans as usual. 

The day before we were stopped in the road by a small boy who asked why she only has one eye. He did not believe that she had two even when I tried to convince him... and I guess with all the hair and the fact that half her face is black he was right to be a little sceptical! Happily I can confirm that she does indeed have two very beautiful eyes, although she was initially a little shy about showing them off... 



With a bit of gentle persuasion we got this far...



and then finally, ta-da!! The grand reveal!:




Isn't she gorgeous? 

The groomer agreed that he wouldn't attempt anything too 'groomed' as the rest of her is still so lovely and scruffy and it would have looked a bit silly. I am so pleased with the result. They even took a video of her being groomed and cut (using her own brush and a slicker which I had said she hates but which she is clearly tolerating) and said they were delighted with her behaviour. 

http://vid24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/humanoid0011/1st%20Trim_zpsttcypl9m.mp4

She's going back in a couple of weeks for a wash and dry...


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Miss Lilly said:


> Thanks all... and here's a little update!
> 
> Miss Lill's and I visited the groomers a couple of times and then today she went for her first little session. And it went well!!! We went for a nice walk on the common after and she seemed full of beans as usual.
> 
> ...


Firstly, she is totally gorgeous! The groomer did the perfect puppy trim job! No nose shaving in sight 

Secondly, what a revelation, the first groomer was clearly as mad as a bottle of chips! Sooooooooooo glad you have found someone lovely, certain people are made for a job/role and it restores my faith in humanity when we get a reminder that people are amazing! Pat on the back to the new groomer for treating your lovely puppy with kindness and gentle respect.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Fantastic  lovely pup  and sounds like you have found a great groomer and prepared her very well for the experience


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

I've read a lot of posts saying that the matts creep up on you literally over night and I truly thought everyone was exaggerating.

Well.... Mea Culpa!

Yep, the matts have arrived and made themselves very much at home - particularly in Miss Lill's feathery bits on her legs and behind her ears - really pretty much where her Equafleece ends. And what matts! Properly felted little ball things 

I'm positive that I haven't just been missing them and that they have therefore just been slowly growing. I brush and comb Miss Lill's at least once a day - not all of her in one sitting but every bit of her at least once a day.

The fur on her back is now some 3 1/2 inches long and whilst its not quite so long on her legs its not far behind. And her adult fur is definitely coming in which is I guess why she has been shedding such a lot of late. The black patch on her rump has a lot of white hairs coming through and the lighter bits on her back seem to be darkening too ... I can't yet imagine what she will look like fully grown, or indeed once she's been groomed.

Anyway, long story short: she's booked in for her first proper groom next week (see my first post: I'm positively munching on my own words now ). They think it will take roughly 2 1/2 hours and they will have an assistant as well rather than tying her up. They also said I should send them pics of what I'm after looks wise and be very clear about what I want done and so once again I'm after your advice!

I'm quite prepared for her to go quite a bit shorter and am thinking maybe 1 1/2 - 2 inches off her back and everywhere else blended in to match. I definitely don't want her to end up with poodle paws and legs but accept that these too need to be shorter, especially with all the foul weather we've had and the fact that the soil here is clay based and so is impossible to brush out when dry). I think they need to chop a fair bit off behind her ears and the ears themselves but I don't want a straight line (I've been trimming them with thinning scissors and prefer this look). I also don't want them to pluck her ears- they are very, very clean and I think the hairs should help stop any foreign objects from getting in there. Face wise, no shaving and no heavy bangs - I'd prefer that they blend her fringe in a bit (does that make sense?).

Also, I keep reading about hygiene trims and whilst I get the principle, I just want to check exactly what this means before asking for it.

Is this too much / too little by way of instructions? Is there anything else I should ask for?

And, if you have a poo with similar fur to Miss Lill's, I'd be really grateful if you could you post pics of particularly successful grooms if you have any and wouldn't mind me showing them? 

Many, many thanks as always!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Hygiene trim means shorter, but not naked, at the parts where nasty fluids and solids could get caught, it is well worth it. 

I can't offer grooming advice but I can say the triptych of her revealing her eyes is magnificent.


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Thank you Fairlie! 

Miss Lill's LOVES her blankets. As often as not she is invisible as hidden under one fast asleep. Her contented sighs give her away a lot of the time 

Thanks for clarifying the hygiene trim thing too - I'll definitely be asking for one of them!


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Hygiene trim is just going very short underneath (around her lady bits!) and a little bit under her tail (stop the poo getting stuck on hair there!), you won't see those bits. You can ask what length the longest comb attachment is, usually 1" although they may have some a little longer, this is the length of coat that will be left, if you want it any longer you will have to ask for a scissor trim. Just discuss with the groomer the length you want the legs left, they may have a 'usual' length and you can see if that is acceptable to you.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

The downside of the wonderful equafleece is that they can cause matting... when my girls have their winter clips I am happy for them to be shorter and I also ask for the groomer to cut their leg pits short too as they do tend to matt badly in these areas.
Miss Lilly is totally beautiful and I love her eyes and her wonderful coat, but practically she may be more comfortable shorter... when Dot had her haystack coat length she was very good about me constantly combing through one bit of her or another, but I think she was a bit relieved when she could have a cuddle without being combed


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

oh and I'm sorry I omitted to say how gorgeous she looks! lovely eyes, its funny I used to think my Dudley didn't have very nice eyes but when he had his hair cut shorter around them I could see that they were nice after all - he had probably been half squinting trying to see properly!!


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Ooh Miss Lilly, you're a corker without a doubt! Both eyes are beautiful and that button nose is perfection 

Poppy has different fur to Lilly but we go short all over now and it works. We used to get chunkier legs but they just get in a mess really quickly and she doesn't like her legs being brushed so we go for the easy option. Although I really do love that look and if brushing gets easier we may adopt it again in the future. We've had a few horrible nose shaves, I especially dislike them shaving her between her eyes, she looks odd and I don't understand why they can't see that. So now I ask for a scissored face (don't think the groomer's impressed with that though!). Dawn is it a much bigger task to scissor rather than shave just on the face?

I never like the look you get straight after a groom (lovely and soft though) but I think we've got to a point with our groomer that it's _nearly _right and so it doesn't take too long for her to become dishevelled again - which is how she and I like it best  I'm not actually sure how to correct the bits I don't like to be honest, I'd need more grooming knowledge myself to know what to ask for!


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

DB1 said:


> oh and I'm sorry I omitted to say how gorgeous she looks! lovely eyes, its funny I used to think my Dudley didn't have very nice eyes but when he had his hair cut shorter around them I could see that they were nice after all - he had probably been half squinting trying to see properly!!


DAWN!!!!! How can you talk that way about King Dud? There's going to be a cockapoo backlash coming your way on here


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks everyone

Its definitely a combination of the equafleece and her adult fur coming in that's causing the matts I think. But the equafleece is amazing and I wouldn't be without it anymore.

This first groom thing is driving me crazy!! I was so focused initially on making sure that Miss Lill's wasn't too overwhelmed with being left with the groomer and having things done to her that I didn't for one minute think about the day she would have her first cut and all the things I might have to ask them to do.

I'm also really sad about her first groom - not so much because she will be shorter, but because she will be different and never the same as she has been up till now. She'll still be gorgeous, but I'm sure she will be a lot darker in places when she's been trimmed - and possibly lighter in others (the black patch on her rump is sprouting a lot of white hair!!). Maybe she will just end up grey? Either way, it sort of signals the end of her real puppy days and is a sign that she's growing up. Too fast :cry2:

Your advice has been invaluable and at the risk of earning myself a not very good reputation with the groomers, I'm going to be quite specific about what I want:

hygiene trim but no shave
face trim but no shave and no 'bangs' 
beard and tash trimmed but not too short
ears trimmed but not a straight cut
no ear hair plucking
overall, length taken back to approx. 1 1/2 inches with legs blended in (but no poodle paws) and top of head hair left a bit longer
tail trimmed

If you were the groomer, would you be gnashing your teeth by now? 'Cause I was thinking of giving them these two pics as well (found on the internet)... they come pretty close to what I'm thinking (although the second one is too long fur wise)...


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I am a groomer, and ...
no not too bad, although I'm not sure why you say hygiene trimmed but not shaved? do you mean just not shaved too close, I do use clippers there - you won't see the clipped bit unless she is laying on her back.
the ears trimmed but not straight cut - do you mean the bottom of them? otherwise I'd be fine with everything else. Taking a picture is a good idea.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Definitely take a picture - much, much better than written instructions (although sometimes annotated picture might be even better!) - I took a couple of photos of the beautiful Tilly that Lottierachel had posted, as Dawn cut her, and that was undoubtedly the time that the groomer got closest to what I had in mind.
But to be honest after that initial moment of shock when the groomer brings out your almost naked 'poo and then the giggling/crying every time you look at your dog for the first 24 hours - you realise that actually you love them 100% whatever they look like


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Phew!! That's good to hear coming from a groomer!!! I wish you were somewhere near us...

Yes, I meant not shaved too close and yes, I meant the bottom of her ears  I'm glad you pointed that out - now hopefully my groomer will understand what I mean and there won't be too many surprises when I get her back. I thought shaving and clipping were two different things - and I didn't want her to be completely naked!!

I can honestly say that I don't spend half as much time thinking about / talking through what to do with my hair when I go for a cut. How did I become so precious with Miss Lill's???

By the way: I can't imagine any poo not having beautiful eyes and I'm sure Dudley's are lovely too. As much as I loved the overgrown / dishevelled look, I've actually been really happy to be able to see Miss Lilly's eyes properly and, as a bonus, she doesn't walk into things as much anymore when she's sleepy anymore either. But gosh - it grows back so fast!!!


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I know, I still neglect my own hair, I have a free day tomorrow and I'm not whether to give Dudley a full groom, I've left him a little while. Trying to keep on top of the matts on his legs in the wet weather, think I may go short (ish) body but keep the legs longer - to be honest most of the Cockapoo's I do have fairly short legs too for easier maintenance. Most owners like to have a scissor trim or two when the dogs are still puppies ,but have always got shorter and shorter on each visit!, i think as long as you can keep the head similar the body length becomes less of an issue.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

oh, and if you click on the link to my webpage there are some cockapoo grooms, probably shorter on the body than you would want now though.


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Marzi: I am 100% sure that I will love Miss Lilly whatever she looks like. If I can love her covered in mud and fox and goose poo then everything else should be a doddle!

Dawn - your website is fab, thank you for the tip. I'm not sure why but it didn't even occur to me to have a look. I have to say, its pretty close to what I'm after, although Miss Lill's is just not as curly (yet?) as most of the pics I see...

By the way: this may be a really stupid question but are the matts particularly bad whilst the fur is changing from puppy to adult - or will it always be this dramatic? At the moment, the matts are coming in so thick and fast that I'm chopping little ones out on a daily basis (They are absolutely not detangleable (is that even a word???) - even with spray and comb and cutting in to them. They are like very hard little felt pellets. And even though she is booked in to the groomer on Tuesday, I'm reluctant to leave them as they will surely just get closer to her skin and cause her discomfort...


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

it is definitely the worst time for matt's, you can see now why so many older pups get clipped right off if the owners had not been checking and grooming as regularly as you obviously are. If they are in area's that don't really show, just pull as much hair as you can away from the matt and then cut it out, brush the hair around it then. sometimes you can cut through them a couple of times and then brush them out but it sounds as if you are trying that. luckily a Cockapoo's coat is generally very forgiving. Its the area's that get big amounts of felted matts that are hard to cut out and hide. check the back of her ears, often the first area that goes like that, and on her back just above her tail. It sounds as if you are going great though. Just gave Dudley a full groom again today, I was quite enjoying his getting longer, getting shaggier look - but then I groom him and I love the soft fluffy coat too - 2 dogs in one!


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

This was a light puppy trim I did a little while ago, I would probably do it a bit tidier now


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Oh! I love it!!! And I like the fact that it _isn't _ absolutely tidy. I'm curious to know how short this was... roughly... on his/her back?

May I show them this picture? Would you mind?


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