# Dominant Collie problem



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Just wondering if anyone can help with this one please. Last year a family in our village got their first ever dog, a male collie pup (from a farm where the dogs live outside) a few months younger than the Popster. Even when he was very young he always pounced on Poppy with both front legs in a big bear hug thing and growled. This is something I was never comfortable with and when I recommended our puppy classes the owner said they weren't bothering with that and would train him at home.....well it's got no better, he's been de-conkered with no improvement and today he completely overpowered Poppy  

I was on the fields with her and saw people in the distance I didn't recognise, with a dog so I put Poppy on the lead as usual. As they got closer I realised who it was and kept her on because he's too rough to be running around with (they've done it before and he basically just kept jumping on her and pinning her down) but they left him off his lead. He charged at us from quite a way off and then dropped (as they do when herding sheep but not to any command, just his decision) and watched us approach with a 'hunting' face. As soon as we got within a few feet he did the usual pounce, Poppy submits (always to every dog) but she was on her back and he kind of crouched right over her with front legs wrapped around in a full body hold, growling and I could only see her tail  I was being calm to try not to freak her out and gently pulling her lead saying 'ok, let's go now come on' and the collie's owners were shouting at him (they always do but he doesn't even acknowledge it). Well eventually something broke his concentration enough for Poppy to wriggle out. She was wagging but she always does! I walked off quickly to separate us and the owner shouted back 'd'you like his new groom?' and then to the dog 'now that was a naughty thing to do to, say sorry' 

I think next time I'd prefer him on a lead but if I ask them to do that could this encourage lead aggression in him? (There's another very fierce collie who's always on a lead spitting and growling like a wild thing) I don't want to end up making his reactions worse and then have to deal with proper aggression if he ever got off....I definitely need to be more assertive with them but they seem to think it's amusing, always laughing it off after each time as just something he 'does' and living in a small village can be quite challenging in these kind of situations 

Any ideas will be gratefully and humbly received


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Rather than dominant I would say that is extremely rude behaviour and sooner or later they are going to meet another dog who makes it quite clear it is unacceptable.

If the owners are taking no responsibility I would totally avoid them. I would probably also carry a slip lead and if you had an encounter like today loop it round his neck and hand him back to them and tell them they need to keep better control over him or he is going to get seriously hurt or seriously hurt another dog.


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you, that's a useful suggestion. And yes I do try to avoid them usually but we were on a narrow path heading towards each other unfortunately.


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

Maggie's friend Clover has started to wrap her legs around Maggie the same way as that dog. Clover's Mom always pulls Clover off and tells her no but clover doesn't get it. Maggie always is playful and submits but I'm worried she will get hurt so no more free play for them. They are fine to when we walk them both on lead side by side though.


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

It's an odd thing to watch isn't it? It doesn't look sexual but it's very unpleasant I wonder how she'll train it out - love the name Clover


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Chance is half collie and spends her days when I am at work with my friends dogs who play hard so I was aware from the start to had the potential to be a nightmare when out and about.

I therefore worked very hard from her first off lead on keeping her nicely focused on me when out and about, when we saw other dogs she was only allowed to go and see them when close and the other owners were happy for her to go over - the majority were - but I had established the control I wanted.

From her playing with my friends gang she has learned to use her body weight and although she does not "hug" she does like to shoulder charge - she tried this on Molly quite a lot as she was growing up. Each and every time she did it she went back on the lead for a few minutes - no telling off, just a calm down time on the lead then allowed off again (although if she kept repeating she was kept on the lead) By this time she was 3 times Mollys weight so it is not a behaviour I can allow as she will hurt Molly even though that is not her intention. 

The majority of the time before she did her shoulder charge she would drop to the ground and stalk so I learned to watch for the stalk and interupt that - stopping the stalk stopped the charge totally.


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Hmm I think this dog needs your input. Some people simply think 'let's get a dog' full stop, unfortunately. What does the 'hug' mean do you think?


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I think the hug is probably just very clumsy rude play but if he does this to other dogs often he is very lucky to have not met a real telling off for it. Neither of mine would be at all impressed with that sort of approach. It is difficult when you want to stay on reasonable speaking terms with people.

Could you maybe tell them about your friend online who has told you about their young dog who ran up to another who was on lead and was hurt by the other dog (although I rather suspect their answer would be that it would be good to teach their dog a lesson ) 

Sadly some people do just get a dog and feel they are doing their bit by taking them out and allow them to play/bully anything they come across, they don't see any problem until one day their dog gets hurt by another objecting and at this point they are sure the others are in the wrong for having a viscous dog


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Oh I hope this gets sorted. That's very annoying, dog and owners


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Good idea, I'll blame you


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Shooting season is now open!! 
 only joking!!! X


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

And both my barrels are shmokin'


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## Millie123 (Oct 8, 2014)

It's very difficult isn't it when you are working hard training your dog and other people don't help! We have someone in our village with a dog that's very aggressive to others and he is always muzzled and on a lead, which I know is responsible. However, often this dog is on the same route as us on the way to school and if we are in front they stay behind and I will them to just hold back a bit to put some distance there as it makes my pup very jumpy being barked at- and actually he's great with other dogs at the moment which is one of the few things we have sorted! I've let them past before but there is usually an intense barking session as they go past. I do wonder why she always walks him on the school run when he often barks at children and dogs. I do think your situation will come to a head soon- sounds like you are very patient and nice but someone else will tell them what's what very soon I'm sure! Keep us updated


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Aw, thank you for those kind words and for taking the time to reply when you're up to your eyes with your own doggy issues!


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Poor poppy, it's not nice trying to avoid someone like this as it ruins your walks.
Have you heard of the yellow ribbon on your lead - it's meant to be a warning to other dog owners, that your dog doesn't want their dog running up to it whilst it's in the lead.
Maybe you could have a ribbon on, and the next time you see them or this happens - explain the yellow ribbon rule.
Maybe then, at least when they see you out and about and you put poppy on the lead, they may also do the same with their dog and hopefully prevent poppy from getting unwanted hugs!! X


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

Never heard of the yellow ribbon rule. Kind of like the red ribbon on the tail of a horse that kicks.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Where's Marzi when you need her? I know Inzi is an angel but maybe Marzi would know how to broach the subject with these owners. Clearly they just haven't trained their dog. Poor dog


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Tracey, now I can't stop singing 'Tie a yellow ribbon!'....that's an idea, if I just sing at them people will start to avoid me 

Ruth yes I was wondering about Marzi too and whether my post had suggested something offensive about Collies so that she isn't talking to me  but I don't think so .....I know they have a very strong 'work ethic' and need to be gainfully employed in order to be happy - and unfortunately some people just create nervous and unhappy examples. 

Anyway I've decided to gird my loins and just say 'please can you put him on a lead because Poppy was a bit unhappy after being smothered last time' or something similar. It's just such a small village and I don't want to create a situation that gets out of hand (I've seen it so many times with the ever grinding village rumour mill!) but ultimately I need to keep the Popster safe and happy and I may need to grow a pair in order to achieve that


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

RuthMill said:


> Where's Marzi when you need her? I know Inzi is an angel but maybe Marzi would know how to broach the subject with these owners. Clearly they just haven't trained their dog. Poor dog


Hmm, yes, its so much easier if the owners are easy to talk to, have a similar dog at our park, he is really not aggressive but is a 'teenager', likes to play rough and doesn't have enough doggy manners to realise when another dog is not happy, owner has realised now though that one or two other owners were getting a bit concerned and the dog does get put on the lead now when he gets too much so he should learn. To be honest Dudley was a bit like that when younger, although never growly, he did the hug thing and puts his head over other dogs backs which I think is a dominance thing, he has only ever gone into a submissive pose a couple of times, yet most dogs seem to find him pretty harmless and he is mega gentle with very young pups, sometimes tells off slightly older ones now, so hopefully this dog will learn and calm down as it matures but it does sound as if it needs help to get the message.
Maybe say something like 'oh he is at that age isn't he? when he doesn't quite understand that not all other dogs like to play rough...' and hope the owner gets the hint.


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

That's another good idea Dawn, I think they're blind to it. Trouble is Poppy plays rough too but not like that - she boxes other dogs - with complete good nature - but I always apologise and remove her if the other dog isn't joining in. However, she does need to learn more dog language so often the owner tells me it's fine and just to let their dog tell Poppy when they've had enough (that's owners who I trust to know their dogs!) or they let me spend some time settling Poppy before meeting - most people are really lovely! We meet most people individually walking across the fields so there's not usually a whole scrum of dogs together in one place to compare behaviours, it would probably help these owners to see their dog in company like that and to watch others playing. Quite often the children are in charge of him too and he's just dragging them along the road - at the beginning when I first saw it I thought it looked so dangerous I tried to share my puppy class tips for loose lead walking because they were all obviously having big trouble (taking one step at a time and giving a treat with 'good close' or 'good heel') and I honestly thought it might help but I just think 'they know best' so after a few tries I gave up I'm afraid.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sadly there are lots of people who just see no harm in their dogs doing whatever they want and don't want to put any work into training and the best you can do is protect your own dog. I would definitely say Poppy was scared or even slightly hurt after the last encounter so could they please put him back on the lead or otherwise control him. 

I have endless patience to help people who are interested and will put the work into their dogs but ultimately if they don't want to I just avoid them and protect my pair.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Mazzapoo said:


> Tracey, now I can't stop singing 'Tie a yellow ribbon!'....that's an idea, if I just sing at them people will start to avoid me
> 
> Ruth yes I was wondering about Marzi too and whether my post had suggested something offensive about Collies so that she isn't talking to me  but I don't think so .....I know they have a very strong 'work ethic' and need to be gainfully employed in order to be happy - and unfortunately some people just create nervous and unhappy examples.
> 
> Anyway I've decided to gird my loins and just say 'please can you put him on a lead because Poppy was a bit unhappy after being smothered last time' or something similar. It's just such a small village and I don't want to create a situation that gets out of hand (I've seen it so many times with the ever grinding village rumour mill!) but ultimately I need to keep the Popster safe and happy and I may need to grow a pair in order to achieve that


Really, really not remotely offended 
Just don't think that there is an easy answer. I'm definitely in the avoidance camp - but then I'm rubbish at confrontation 
The yellow ribbon thing may work well if you sing it - sadly there are dog owners that seem to think that having a yellow ribbon on their dog's lead excuses them from having to control their dog - ie they put a yellow ribbon on their aggressive dog's lead and then don't stop it from towing them towards your dog foaming at the mouth and intent on causing GBH 'oh he doesn't like other dogs - he has a yellow ribbon' smirk smirk 
Then there is the large GSD which has a nasty habit of throwing his weight around and snapping at the back ends of dogs 'oh he has never done that before' simpers the owner - which you know is not true because he's done it to your dog before 
Collies can be pains - they have a strong eye and are bred to use their will to boss other animals - but they certainly are not all awful and as long as their brains are engaged they don't need to be a problem. If you are going to talk to the thug collie's owners - ask whether the dog likes a ball or frisbee or something and suggest they take it with them on walks and allow their dog to carry it.
My three are all very submissive. Kiki gets miserably bullied by a particular mini schnauzer that drags her around by her neck while she is flat on her back crying. He doesn't bother Dot at all, but there is a border terrier who thinks it is fun to repeatedly flatten Dot.
I walk the other way if I see them, I have body blocked the dog on its way in and I have physically lifted the schnauzer off Kiki, the owner says he only does it to her - obviously that is alright then


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Dog politcs are uncannily like human politics on scales large and small. On one end we have the libertarians saying "dogs wil be dogs leave them to work it out" and at the other end we have the "nanny state" every dog should be perfect people. If I did not know better I'd ask if you guys are encountering my brothers dog, a lovely dog who will NOT take no for an answer. I walked her recently and watched as dogs we encountered were put on lead and rushed the opposite way. My brother is firmly in the "let them work it out" camp and she clearly has a reputation as a bully.

We've had to stop frequenting a dog park where a rescue dog had it in for Rufus. He would knock him down and not let him up again. The owners were apologetic but it is so hard to train the way a dog has learned to play out of them. It was easier for us to move. I am very impressed 2nd that you were able to train Chance from shoulder checking. Anyhow, all this to say to the new puppy people *an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure* Puppy classes and puppy parties are essential, with a knowledgable supervisor who can nip bad play habits in the bud.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

fairlie said:


> I am very impressed 2nd that you were able to train Chance from shoulder checking.


Hmmm - not trained out of her - she still plays hard with her regular mates she spends the day with while I am at work (regular crew are all pretty much her size or larger) and she would still shoulder charge Molly if I did not manage her although she has learned to not make contact she is still too rough for the size difference between them so I need to make sure I manage her behaviour - I did post a thread earlier with Molls failed recall where she was rudely interupted by Chance charging at her - I had not noticed but Molly did and took avoiding action. She has never done it to another random dog we have met though and would be back on the lead in an instant if she even thought about it!! 

http://ilovemycockapoo.com/showthread.php?t=66017

Marzi is totally right though - getting a collie type hooked on a toy gives them far less opportunity to do their own thing - Chance barely notices other dogs if she has a ball 

I totally agree about the yellow dog thing too Marzi - the only dog I have seen wearing a yellow ribbon was wearing one on each end of the lead, one on the collar, the collar had "NO DOGS" printed on it in large letters - and they were walking through a busy park and allowed it to directly approach my two who were minding their own business next to me when I was sat on a park bench - presumably they would have blamed me if there was a problem!!


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## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Hello Marzi :wave: Thanks for that, I didn't realise how common this kind of experience is - difference being that you all just don't go on about it whereas I'm a wuss!  I too avoid conflict like the plague though. Poor Kiki and Dot with their respective terrorisers! Our dogs are all amazing at keeping their good natures in tact eh?
The ball/frisbee idea is good - I might carry my own sacrificial one 

Fairlie that's a very good point, new owners please don't overlook the importance of training from the start 

Thank you all for listening, cogitating and taking the time to suggest ideas.

Time for a photo reward 

Here is a mucky picture (steady Tracey) of the Popster from our extra long ''Yahoo I'm not at work!' walk on Wednesday


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## Very muddy (Jun 8, 2012)

Thank you so much for this thread. I found it really interesting. I used to love my dog walks but am now a bit on edge as we've had quite a few dodgy doggy encounters recently. It was interesting about the yellow ribbon - there's a dog here that wears one on its collar but I think the owner thinks that's prevention enough as it roars over, teeth bared, with her screaming into the wind 'she's awful with dogs, can you put yours on the lead please?'  I'm always up for the non confrontation approach but sometimes you do have to deal with situations and your tips are v useful. Love the carrying a spare lead idea too!


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