# Behaviour Question



## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

Here's a little poser for all you behaviourist's out there

Milo & Alfie both mark whilst out walking

Milo will walk across broken glass to mark over Alfie's mark! Sometimes almost knocking Alfie out of the way or getting his head pee'd on

Alfie has no real interest in covering Milo's mark

Alfie was first to **** his leg by a good margin

When greeting us Milo will wait until Alfie has finished his greeting before getting his greeting

If you put down two identical toy's, chew's or bones Milo only wants the one Alfie has

So here's the Question who's the dominant dog???

Look forward to all your thought's......Mick


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## lady amanda (Nov 26, 2010)

humnh....that is a tough one....I would think Alfie, Possibly with Milo covering Alfie's mark it isn't to cover, but rather,.....oh this is where I am supposed to spray? I don't know really...maybe they take turns


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

Hi

I will of course let you all know who is the most dominant when I have heard everyone's opinion 

Mick 

PS....I realise its a 50/50 question so please add your reasons to your answer


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## Cockapoodledoo (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm pretty certain Alfie is......because of the greeting order in particular. When we were training Rufus, who was exhibiting dominant behaviour, we were always careful to greet the rest of the family before him ....thereby lowering his status. What you may have is a reluctant underdog? Alfie certainly appears to be the most chilled according to your descriptions which is often the case with top dogs unless they feel they are still proving their position. 

Karen xx


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## Lozza (Jun 3, 2011)

I am gonna go with Alfie...sounds like he doesn't need to assert himself (like Milo), he just is top dog.


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## Pollypiglet (Oct 22, 2011)

Alfie. Having worked for nearly 30 years in an enviroment where there was a lot of posturing, a lot of talking a good job which in the end had little to do with the one who made all the fuss quiet assertive wins it for me every time!


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## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

Definitely Alfie and Milo just wants to be Alfie!


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## greenflower (Sep 7, 2011)

ouuuu im gonna say Milo because.........i can 

Truth is i havent a clue. im learning fast though thanks to post like this

Lucy X


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## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

this maybe wrong but if Milo marks on the same spot Alfie does is he doing this because he thinks he is top dog ie:he's getting rid of Alfies scent and putting his own there instead so his scent will be the one other dogs smell?
Thought I'd guess differently as I'm sure this is a trick question ,I know you so well Mick! Ha ha


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## curt3007 (May 28, 2011)

DONNA said:


> this maybe wrong but if Milo marks on the same spot Alfie does is he doing this because he thinks he is top dog ie:he's getting rid of Alfies scent and putting his own there instead so his scent will be the one other dogs smell?
> Thought I'd guess differently as I'm sure this is a trick question ,I know you so well Mick! Ha ha


That would have been my choice too Donna and my reasoning, so we can prob both be wrong together haha


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## Turi (Jun 28, 2011)

When I read your post I thought Alfie but then I read everyone's responses and got confused 

You've always said that Milo is the brains and that Alfie provides the brawn... that Milo is more laid back and serious but that he eats more quickly that Alfie even though Alfie is bigger (I 'may' have cheated and looked at all your old posts for clues - I need help, I don't even have a dog yet )

Anyway, I'm going to say that Milo is the more dominant dog. 

Turi x


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

OK Everyone

Some good reasoning there for those in the Alfie Camp your right....

Alfie is by far the more dominant of the two he is totally at ease with Milo and see's him as no treat to his position in our pack...hence the reason why he does not need to put his scent over Milo's

In a pack of Wolves all males will mark its a show of force but they are very much kept in and know the position in the pack order when it comes to the Alpha male

The big clue was (as Karen quite rightly picked up on) in the Greeting 

Milo will totally wait until Alfie has finished before he get's involved......and again as Karen has said this is mostly the only area I interfere with and I will make Alfie wait whilst I greet MiloAlfie is not at all put out by this and it just keeps meee! as the controller 

So well done everyone hope you enjoyed the question

Mick


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Poo, I hadn't answered yet!
I would have said Alfie because Milo is laid back like his sister, who is totally dominated (althoigh she has me wrapped round her paw)


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## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

What's the prize? Simon does good prizes......


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## Turi (Jun 28, 2011)

michaelwatson54 said:


> OK Everyone
> 
> Some good reasoning there for those in the Alfie Camp your right....
> 
> ...


Oh man... I'm probably destined to be a terrible dog behaviour specialist 

Turi x


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## Kirsty (Sep 9, 2011)

I think Milo is the dominant dog but Alfie is biding his time, playing the game and getting ready for the corporate take over xx


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## Cockapoodledoo (Feb 8, 2011)

YES! .......next question? I like this game. 

Karen xx


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

New member so missed it when posted.

I would have asked which dog ended up with the toys and chews when they both wanted them......


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

Soo said:


> New member so missed it when posted.
> 
> I would have asked which dog ended up with the toys and chews when they both wanted them......


Hi

Alfie has them first but we 9 times out of 10 get 2 but Milo only want's the one Alfie's got.....when Milo finally gets it he tries to get Alfie to try and take it

Mick

PS welcome to the forum and look forward to hearing all about your new Cockapoo's......as an ex-trainer you might want to take a look at *'The Cockapoo Olympic's' thread....*


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

ali-s.j. said:


> What's the prize? Simon does good prizes......


Free entry to the Olympic's........

Mick


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for the welcome Mick

The olympics sound fun. Will need to talk nice to hubby and see if we can have a wee break away to come down for them. Give me a wee kid up the bum to do some training too, cobblers kids and all that LOL

I plan on doing more trick training than anything, love what you can do with a clicker. I had all the traditional police type trainers around me in disgust when I started the first clicker classes in Scotland many years ago. I got hooked on it myself when I managed to train one of my collies to do something in 5 minutes that Id been trying to do for months!

Im too lazy with it to do real obedience. Had a go at open with the collies but Im not very good at perfection. Im more a wing it type of gal.

Still can start with the fun stuff as soon as


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

Soo said:


> Thanks for the welcome Mick
> 
> The olympics sound fun. Will need to talk nice to hubby and see if we can have a wee break away to come down for them. Give me a wee kid up the bum to do some training too, cobblers kids and all that LOL
> 
> ...


Ha, Ha

This sentence made me chuckle

'I had all the traditional police type trainers around me in disgust when I started the first clicker classes in Scotland many years ago'

Being an ex police officer (RAF) myself

Mick


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## DONNA (Jan 7, 2011)

Pants I thought it was a trick question! Wrong again!


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## Soo (Dec 16, 2011)

Mick

Back in the first days tho clickers were looked at with total suspicion and disbelief that you could train a dog with them. Nowadays most folk accept them even if its not a tool that they want to use.

They are even on the telly thesedays LOL I had never seen one used and came across them when doing my first ever internet search. I put in dog training and as well as coming up with some very weird stuff I found an internet group called click-l. I quckly became hooked and bought a clicker online and got started. It just made things so much clearer to my dog what I was trying to do (get him to take a step back when going from down to stand in distance control).

I went very much to hands off but then after a few years accepted that not all methods suit all dogs and owners and that you use the least force necessary in each case whatever that may be. I was a member of the APDT but left after I realised that I wanted the freedom to use methods that they did not approve in the rare case I needed to and the ones Id been using were not effective. I was doing a lot of behaviour work at the time and had one to one behaviourals as well as a NED class and a severe aggression class. With those last dogs most methods had failed and I was concentrating on giving the owners confidence and control over their dogs around other dogs and people. I did trick training with them as it was a lot less stressful for dogs and owners. The owners were delighted they didnt need to be midnight walkers anymore 
Their friends were also less afraid of a skateboarding or keyboard playing dog.


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

Soo said:


> Mick
> 
> Back in the first days tho clickers were looked at with total suspicion and disbelief that you could train a dog with them. Nowadays most folk accept them even if its not a tool that they want to use.
> 
> ...


Hi Sheilagh

I also have come across many method's during my year's involved with dogs, trainer's, club's and a wide variety of Military and Civilian Agencies at home and aboard that I have worked with

I believe all have their merit's and it is foolish to dismiss without seeing these method's and of course the environment's they have to work/train their dog's in

I have worked with Custom's and Excise and trained dog's in places like a Ship's Engine Room....very oppressive but the need exists for a dog to be able to cope with these area's. I have worked with the Prison Service where dog's are required to carry out riot control and prisoner extraction so I'm sure you will understand that about only 1 in 10 dog's that enter training with these agencies make it....what I'm saying is many training method's work you just need to find one that work's for you

I have seen many wannabe trainer's come and go, all had good solid idea's but have been unable to adapt their method's to suit the many different breed's and temperament's that walk through the door of a civilian dog training club....it was this that made me decide to go back to training as I could not find a local club that could provide for me and my dog's......along with the little fact I'm probably not the world's greatest at being told what to do 

I'm sure your going to really enjoy getting back to training your dog's and I look forward to hearing how you get on

Mick


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## Freddies Mum (Nov 20, 2010)

Really interesting post. I read some research recently against the idea of pack heirarchies, but don't know what to think really. Any research makes sense if it is well argued! 

My household is interesting.  Darcey definitely seems 'top dog' - or is she just a bit of a bully? She commandeers me and won't let the others sit closest to me. Or if I don't let her get between me and one of the others she takes herself off well away from me as if she didn't want to sit there anyway! Also neither of the boys will dare to take a chew off her, and if she sits in a doorway with a chew they won't dare walk past her. But is this respect, or is it just learned behaviour because she's had a go at them in the past??

And with the boys it's interesting, Jasper can and does take things off Freddie, not because he wants them but because he can, and because his favourite game is to get one of the others to chase him. Freddie won't try to take something out of Jasper's mouth - but he will try to hump him or bite his leg to get him on the floor. Does this mean Freddie is really 'higher' than Jasper, or again is it learned behaviour because he knows he has no chance to tug something from Jasper but can fell him by humping or biting his leg.

Not sure about the greeting bit - Jasper is first at the door but once you're in he runs away to get a toy while Freddie and Darcey are there to greet. 

All very interesting, would like to hear some more views!

BTW - I'm not trained as a trainer, just like reading up on different theories.


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