# Puppy bit another dog!



## fjb5001 (Oct 10, 2014)

So this is only my second post ... I originally started off being the "Freaked out mother of her new pup." 

Things are slowly getting better and i am catching on. However, today was a big step back in the wrong direction. 

When I got my puppy last friday he was 14 weeks old (a little late on the socialization period) and I had noticed when we were on walks and he got close to other dogs that he would growl. I did not like this one bit and thought I needed to get him more socialized with other dogs.

So today I took him to doggy daycare (only for 20lbs and smaller). Within an hour I received a call from the owner informing me that my little pup (still 3months old) bit another dog! I am completely horrified. The owner of the daycare basically told me I should be really concerned about his behavior as it could be indicating a serious serious issue. cue *wobbly knees*  AND that he was the wrong dog for me!

My little London is the most lovable, sweet, docile little pup with any human but he does get scared with other dogs. 

Please tell me I dont have a demon dog like the lady said?!


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

You don't have a demon dog like daycare said! 
He's only a baby - in a new environment with new people & situations....
Did daycare ask you to pick him up? Was he unsettled the whole time he was there??
I'm sure with a bit more socialization and training he will be fine.
Have you been to puppy classes with him?? This could be a good start for both of you with other dogs x


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

My first instinct is that 14 weeks is very young for daycare, at that age they still need lots of sleep. It could be that after an hour he was so overwhelmed and tired from all these new experiences and reached his limit

I would get in touch with a trainer and see what they offer for socialising. Puppy classes as already mentioned is one thing to look at. Another is that some trainers will offer socialising walks with their calm older dogs who will be good at teaching your pup. It's also a good opportunity to ask for advise on any puppy raising questions that you have. I think it's important for you to be there in your puppy's early experiences as his confidence will come from knowing you're there and it will increase the bond between you that you have shared these new experiences and he has been ok. Also as you get to watch your puppy react to things you will know if he is developing confidence or fears in new areas and you can know when he's had enough in a new situation and remove him before it gets too much


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

Also even apart from fatigue, if you know he is a little uncomfortable and unconfident around other dogs, whilst it is understandable that you would think more time with dogs is the answer, putting him in a new strange group of dogs for an hour without you there is kind of throwing him in at the deep end and likely to scare him rather than build confidence

So I would not worry too much about this as I think it is an understandable reaction from him, I'd take a step back and think about a more controlled environment for the puppy to socialise as suggested above. Ask people with dogs in your area if they recommend any particular trainers


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## Miss Lilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Hi and sorry to hear about what happened. 

I thought I'd share some of my observations with you: Miss Lilly came to live with me at 14 weeks of age too and like your little pup, was absolutely brilliant (if a little timid and submissive) with people and scared of other dogs (particularly if they barked at her). She is now six months old and although still not brimming with confidence she has come on in leaps and bounds. I do think that having a pup with these issues can be quite challenging but I promise you, the rewards of helping your pup to overcome them can be huge and definitely help you to bond. At 14 weeks, you still have the opportunity to make up lost ground in terms of socialization.

Key to helping Miss Lilly was to introduce her to lots of new things: people, places, dogs, smells, sounds etc. But it was (and still is) absolutely crucial to do it at her own pace and with due regard to her 'comfort zone'. 

Miss Lilly and I went to a beginners training class rather than a puppy class for which she was already too old by the time it started. However, the trainer let us sit in on the puppy class in the background so that she could get used to being in the space with other dogs, the accoustics (its in a rather echoey church hall), smells etc. In the beginning she would hide under my chair and it wasn't until the last class 8 weeks later that she felt confident enough to have a play with the other dogs there - of which on that occasion there were only three. Miss Lilly is still not comfortable with big groups of dogs - particularly if they are barking a lot. She will try to get away from them but I imagine that if she is absolutely not able to do so then she too could snap - quite literally.

I'm not sure how many dogs were at the doggy day care you took your pup to, and how much supervision was given, but I could imagine that he might have felt quite overwhelmed and overstimulated by the experience. 14 week old puppies don't necessarily know how to interact with lots of new dogs at the same time and it sounds to me as though your pup may have got pretty scared. If so, his fight / flight or freeze mechanism will have kicked in and if he wasn't able to get away and being still wasn't an option then yes, fight (bite) may have been the only remaining option. I think socializing (around other dogs) is something that has to happen slowly and carefully, otherwise its like throwing him in at the deep end and seeing if he sinks or swims. Experiences need to be positive, so the other dogs need to have good manners and know how to behave around pups too.

Puppy classes / beginners classes are great because the environment is controlled (by you and the trainer). Pups learn rules, boundaries and manners and they gain in confidence. And you learn a lot too. 

I hope this helps a little - and apologies if I have been less than concise!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Poor you and poor little London. Your intentions were very good in giving him an opportunity to meet other dogs but he really got thrown in at the deep end of choppy water. The daycare people should have pointed this out to you when you dropped him off. Like the others have said he needs a very slow build up to get his confidence back. On your lap while he meets really nice, really gentle older dogs, then when he is ready, down on the floor to meet them, then many playdates with bomb proof gentle dogs who love puppies, then eventually a couple of dogs at a time. He'll get there but go very slowly.


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

Personally I'd find another daycare. Maybe one that is run out of a house with just a few dogs. Anyone who thinks at 14 months they are aggressive doesn't know what they are talking about and I wouldn't let them watch my puppies. Also they should have done a better job of slowly introducing your pup and limited how much play time as at that age they need way more nap time. That being said, cockapoos vocalizations at that age sound like the most vicious attacks. And even though they are tiny I have seen people step away thinking my two were aggressive. At the last daycare a new employee thought Lexi & Beemer were fighting but was instructed by the behaviorist that they were playing and how to tell the difference. 


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## dmgalley (Aug 19, 2012)

You need to socialize a puppy at a young age and if you didn't then you need a trainer to show you the correct way. Sorry to all who use doggie day care but that's not training. That's someone who watches your dog while you can't. It is up to you to train your dog and its hard work. It's constant and everyone involved has to be on the same page.
NO PUPPY COMES TRAINED. all puppies bite and have the potential to guard food and resources and be afraid of children and stranges. if you can't prevent this rehome him and don't get another 
I am sorry if I sound harsh but we just had someone on here asking for help who despite being offered tons, decided to "send her seven month old puppy to the rainbow bridge" 
This is probably my last post here anyway so good luck and please do the right thing for the puppy. They don't ask for any of this.


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

First of all dont panic!! Your puppy is late in getting out into the world and may always be on the shy side but there is no reason you can't build his confidence and show him how to enjoy other dogs company. I run a daycare from my home and am limited to 5 dogs. Most of my dogs started very young, some even 9/10 weeks. How ever I am constantly supervising and ensuring everyone maintains manners, has fun and that no bullying goes on. This is very hard to do in a large daycare. Your pup sounds like he was pushed way beyond his comfort zone and so lashed out in fear and defence. I wouldn't send him back to this daycare but maybe find a smaller one or a walker with experience of young puppies. He won't feel as over whelmed in a small group, especially if the other dogs are older and well mannered. This would be an ideal experience for him, steer clear of large puppy groups or so called puppy parties as many are just too uncontrolled and too many negative experiences at this age can make this fear a very hard one to overcome. I would find a nice small training class too this well give him confidence and you too! Good luck.


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

dmgalley said:


> You need to socialize a puppy at a young age and if you didn't then you need a trainer to show you the correct way. Sorry to all who use doggie day care but that's not training. That's someone who watches your dog while you can't. It is up to you to train your dog and its hard work. It's constant and everyone involved has to be on the same page.
> NO PUPPY COMES TRAINED. all puppies bite and have the potential to guard food and resources and be afraid of children and stranges. if you can't prevent this rehome him and don't get another
> I am sorry if I sound harsh but we just had someone on here asking for help who despite being offered tons, decided to "send her seven month old puppy to the rainbow bridge"
> This is probably my last post here anyway so good luck and please do the right thing for the puppy. They don't ask for any of this.



From someone who uses daycare for just that, to keep them company when I can't, nicely said. 


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

To add a positive thing about the way your dog is already behaving - growling if he feels insecure is actually good because it's communication to another dog that he feels uncomfortable. Be careful never to tell him off for growling at another dog - that way you are just silencing his voice that he is unhappy, you won't be removing the uncomfortableness itself. That is when a dog is actually a problem because they go straight from feeling uncomfortable to biting without a warning, because they have been told off for giving the warning.

So when you say you don't like it one bit that your dog is growling at other dogs - don't think of it this way. Take it as a sign that your dog is trying hard to communicate to everyone and showing that he needs his confidence built. Use his body language as simply highlighting what you need to work on with him as he is growing up.

Dogs will bite when they feel they have no other option and in the daycare environment with nowhere to retreat this is likely what happened (I'll bet he tried his best with warnings first). However as he is a little puppy it's also worth pointing out that you will (in fact, you should!) see him bite and mouth because that's nature's way of them learning bite inhibition whilst they have sharp teeth and a weak jaw.

Many puppies of this age wouldn't have had much socialising with other dogs yet because this is the age that they have just recently finished their shots, so you're really not far behind. But I think careful introductions with the presence of a trainer to help guide you is key.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Lexi&Beemer said:


> From someone who uses daycare for just that, to keep them company when I can't, nicely said.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agreed! I use daycare so that my dogs get exercise and company while i am at work. It is great from a doggy socialisation point of view, but ONLY if the daycare is a small set up, separates dogs according to age and size and integrates new doggies/puppies gradually to other doggies. There should also be a routine and a quiet place for pups to nap - this is why its important for small pups to be in small numbers (2-3 max grouped together). This takes time and effort and plenty of monitoring to ensure proper integration. 

This doggy daycare clearly is not set up properly and they have not introduced and integrated your puppy properly. Their comments about your dogs temperament is irresponsible and demonstrates their complete lack of understanding of proper care of puppies. I would question if the staff have any animal care qualifications and what kind of experience they have. At this young age, puppies should be grouped together according to size, they should be in a smaller area away from the other adult dogs/bigger dogs and continuously monitored by experienced staff. 

I don't want doggy daycare establishments to get a bad name because of an establishment like this - we would be lost without ours and for my dogs it is a home from home where they are safe, cared for and get lots of play and exercise. I have chosen a small family home run one and its really fab.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

14 weeks is very much a baby and around the age many pups come to the puppy classes I do with a friend. Some pups bounce in confidently, others are terrified - some of those hide under a chair and others growl and grumble at anything coming close. All are given space and time in a safe environment to decide that things are not as scary as they first thought and that is exactly what your pup needs, with YOU beside them.

A decent daycare would have been careful with a youngster like this and would have made sure they were not overwhelmed - for your pup to have bitten another dog it would have been totally overwhelmed and lashed out - put me in a room with six foot spiders who will not leave me out alone and I will lash out - this does not make me dangerous or out of control (unless you are a six foot spider) 

Find a good positive reward based class and take your pup - if you can go and watch a class first - I am always amazed how few people do this!! You should see relaxed pups and owners enjoying the class, people being helped and no shouting, shoving or jerking leads.

Just to add - please don't use that daycare place again - as others say they can be excellent for confident dogs to go for company and exercise but they are not for socialisation generally - and dogs who go frequently need additional work on self control as they are used to playing with dogs whenever they wish to whilst at daycare. My friend runs a daycare and mine have both spent a fair bit of time there, it is fine for Chance who enjoys other dogs and playing but Molly tolerates it rather than enjoys it so certainly not ideal for her.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Have just read an article on Doggy Day Care. The author felt that not every dog benefits and just because they come home and are quiet and tired does not mean they enjoyed it. It could be because they were totally stressed out. So it very much depends on your dog. The other thing she said was that for most dogs in a group there are just two playing, the rest are jostling for position. Even when it's a group of dogs that know each other well, it's the same. A good day care centre should have a place for your dog to rest ( and for puppies they need a lot of sleep) somewhere to escape and hide if necessary. A safe place to watch from. Also a ratio of a minimum of one fully trained staff to 10 dogs. These are just things to look for. I know my Max would hate it. Phoebe would do better, but my dogs are happiest with us and we have no need for day care as we are home 99% of the time. I think it's too overwhelming for your puppy just now. He needs a more controlled environment to be introduced to dogs in. And he needs you with him.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Cat 53 said:


> Have just read an article on Doggy Day Care. The author felt that not every dog benefits and just because they come home and are quiet and tired does not mean they enjoyed it. It could be because they were totally stressed out. So it very much depends on your dog. The other thing she said was that for most dogs in a group there are just two playing, the rest are jostling for position. Even when it's a group of dogs that know each other well, it's the same. A good day care centre should have a place for your dog to rest ( and for puppies they need a lot of sleep) somewhere to escape and hide if necessary. A safe place to watch from. Also a ratio of a minimum of one fully trained staff to 10 dogs. These are just things to look for. I know my Max would hate it. Phoebe would do better, but my dogs are happiest with us and we have no need for day care as we are home 99% of the time. I think it's too overwhelming for your puppy just now. He needs a more controlled environment to be introduced to dogs in. And he needs you with him.


10 dogs to 1 staff member ratio!!!  That is insane! I much prefer a 5:1 ratio!

After proper integration, if a dog is not enjoying day care, other avenues should definitely be explored, like a walker or visitor in the home.

My two get sooo excited when the van comes for them their two mornings a week, Nina arrives and runs around screeching with excitement! It's crazy, she doesn't look back. Lola joins her daycare pack and spends her time with her best friends and following auntie clare round!  Lola and Nina don't play with eachother at daycare which I find really interesting, they each have their best friends and hang about in packs of 3-4 depending on who is there that day. Lola's bestie is a shihtzu called Roxy and Nina's is a dalmation called Izzy  Their day is very structured with staggered walks, organised play and rest by the big (safe) open fire. There's Lots of quiet and hidden spots for naps and all the dogs have their place, I often get pictures of them all on the sofas together though in front of the fire with auntie clare etc amongst them having a cuppa


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

RuthMill said:


> My two get sooo excited when the van comes for them their two mornings a week, Nina arrives and runs around screeching with excitement! It's crazy, she doesn't look back. Lola joins her daycare pack and spends her time with her best friends and following auntie clare round!  Lola and Nina don't play with eachother at daycare which I find really interesting, they each have their best friends and hang about in packs of 3-4 depending on who is there that day. Lola's bestie is a shihtzu called Roxy and Nina's is a dalmation called Izzy  Their day is very structured with staggered walks, organised play and rest by the big (safe) open fire. There's Lots of quiet and hidden spots for naps and all the dogs have their place, I often get pictures of them all on the sofas together though in front of the fire with auntie clare etc amongst them having a cuppa


Aww


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Grove said:


> Aww


I know  love them


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## Sandhya333 (May 18, 2014)

RuthMill said:


> 10 dogs to 1 staff member ratio!!!  That is insane! I much prefer a 5:1 ratio!
> 
> After proper integration, if a dog is not enjoying day care, other avenues should definitely be explored, like a walker or visitor in the home.
> 
> My two get sooo excited when the van comes for them their two mornings a week, Nina arrives and runs around screeching with excitement! It's crazy, she doesn't look back. Lola joins her daycare pack and spends her time with her best friends and following auntie clare round!  Lola and Nina don't play with eachother at daycare which I find really interesting, they each have their best friends and hang about in packs of 3-4 depending on who is there that day. Lola's bestie is a shihtzu called Roxy and Nina's is a dalmation called Izzy  Their day is very structured with staggered walks, organised play and rest by the big (safe) open fire. There's Lots of quiet and hidden spots for naps and all the dogs have their place, I often get pictures of them all on the sofas together though in front of the fire with auntie clare etc amongst them having a cuppa


OMG - sounds absolutely amazing. No wonder your two love going to this daycare. Really wish I could find something like this near where I live. 

Can't complain though - I have the most amazing dog walker who adores Barney and vice versa. He lets out this high pitched very excited bark when he hears her come through the door. Really funny to hear.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

RuthMill said:


> 10 dogs to 1 staff member ratio!!!  That is insane! I much prefer a 5:1 ratio!
> 
> After proper integration, if a dog is not enjoying day care, other avenues should definitely be explored, like a walker or visitor in the home.
> 
> My two get sooo excited when the van comes for them their two mornings a week, Nina arrives and runs around screeching with excitement! It's crazy, she doesn't look back. Lola joins her daycare pack and spends her time with her best friends and following auntie clare round!  Lola and Nina don't play with eachother at daycare which I find really interesting, they each have their best friends and hang about in packs of 3-4 depending on who is there that day. Lola's bestie is a shihtzu called Roxy and Nina's is a dalmation called Izzy  Their day is very structured with staggered walks, organised play and rest by the big (safe) open fire. There's Lots of quiet and hidden spots for naps and all the dogs have their place, I often get pictures of them all on the sofas together though in front of the fire with auntie clare etc amongst them having a cuppa


That was a minimum Ruth, but agree with you. I would want a much lower ratio for mine!


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## Tetley1 (Jun 11, 2014)

Sorry to hear you have had a stressful time. Willow does not go to daycare but does have a dog walker who comes in and takes her out when I am at work. She started with her at 15 weeks - collects her in a special van with fitted crates and takes all the dogs up to a fenced beautiful large field. I took Willow up to meet her and the other dogs a week or so before she was due to start. Willow was terrified. When all the other dogs came to say hello she peed all over my feet, would not go any further from me than between my legs and was constantly shaking. We stayed for about 15 minutes, drove home (about 20 mins) and she was still shaking when we got home. I was really upset and wondered what on earth I was asking my poor puppy to do....the dog walker was brilliant though and helped Willow find her confidence with her gentle, caring approach. I am happy to say that after a few weeks she was charging around the field with all the dogs having an absolute ball. The dog walker regularly posts pictures of the dogs having so much fun together. I can confidently say that despite my initial fears, it was one of the best things we have done with Willow - she is so happy and confident around other dogs now (she is nearly 6 months old) and the experience for her has been so much fun! She gets so excited when Jo arrives now - she just loves going out. I wonder if finding a dog walker might be a better option than day care - less time out of the house with other dogs and plenty of rest time at home to recharge? I'm sure your puppy will get there with time and patience. My daughter used to bite other children, particularly at nursery (to my horror!!), generally in frustration. She has thankfully grown out of it now and with the love and attention I'm sure you will give your pup, he will too. Good luck


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