# Puppy aggression with other dogs.



## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

Hi all, me again- sorry.
Need a bit of feedback and advice if possible. Monty is now 15 weeks and is a pleasure. He’s been great with humans- no bad experiences at all. Meeting other dogs off lead in the garden etc., is fine once he’s given a few minutes to suss the situation out and then he gets on great with another dog. However, on the lead it’s a different story. Got a real shock at the first of our 3 puppy socialisation classes. If another puppy came near his face he’d pull forward on the lead and bark back in their face. The trainer at first thought I could have a really big problem on my hands with Monty but by the end of the 1st class she felt that with a lot of practise and time he should be okay. Any feedback she gave was constructive and she felt it was fear related. For the classes the owner lures their puppy in and around all the other puppies. The other puppies sit and are distracted by their owners with treats/toys to let the puppy pass by closely. 

By the second class there was a huge improvement in Monty- much less fearful and with treats/distraction and encouragement we had no problem going around the other puppies or letting them pass by. Last week he was more accepting of puppies in his face and was bum sniffing and allowing some bum sniffing. 

I was told not to pull on the lead or tug it. Not to tense up when approaching another dog on a walk. And to use distractions/ treats if I think there’s going to be a problem, or just use them anyway for the moment. And a stern “ah ah” if he misbehaves.

I’m just wondering if anyone else has had this issue and with these methods was it completely or almost completely resolved with practise and time? Rome wasn’t built in a day and on walks I realise that while I wasn’t pulling the lead when approaching a dog that might be a problem I was shortening the lead in my hand to give Monty less opportunity to react and this may also not have been helping things. But on a walk if a dog off lead suddenly walks around the corner and is into Monty’s face and he reacts aggressively should I then pull if I think he may bite or really get in front of him and distract? I would hate for another dog to get hurt. He’s done nothing yet to suggest he’d actually bite- I think it’s more of a “back of” bark. From what I've read here and elsewhere the lead makes the dog feel they can't escape so they react with aggression. 

He has really improved in class over the last 3 weeks and at our first visit to the beach today distraction and treats worked really well to diffuse potential situations. Some dogs can pass by really close and he barely cares yet another dog on the other side of the street can have him on “alert”. He still does react though with certain dogs were I've pulled when I shouldn't have or not read the situation as well as I should have but overall there's huge improvement. I really love Monty to bits and it would kill me to not be able to let him of lead eventually in case he’d be aggressive in the future with others. I met both Monty’s parents and both were friendly and calm, though his dad was a little shy. Monty is in no way shy with humans! Any feedback or suggestions/advice gratefully appreciated.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Marzi is the best person to help you with this situation because it's complicated. 

Dogs lose their puppy status at about four months. Some older dogs won't take too kindly to a teenager "telling them off". It becomes a bit of a vicious circle because he can sense your apprehension which is justified, and the other dog is right to correct him, because it's what older dogs do. However if you meet a bully or another scared dog things could go south quickly.

I picked up baby Rufus once when a scarey looking dog approached us on lead and its owner told me off good. Thank goodness she did because it really made me work on not transmitting my fear to him. The only people who can teach your dog to have nice dog manners are actually dogs. I think I'd enlist all my friends with nice dogs to walk a little ahead of me and model to him how good dogs say hello. You could set up a situation where a dog pal in front of him meets another dog and both dogs get treats and pats, then it could be "his turn". With time he'd come to see that meeting another dog means good things happen. Then you'll have to undo all of that when he pulls on the lead desperate to say hello to every dog he passes the way most dogs do.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

It sounds as if you are doing the right sort of things mostly. Always have tasty treats - or a high value ball. Off lead most dogs will sort each other out with no aggression - off lead they have the space to meet and greet like dogs should do - and plenty of space to move into which helps diffuse situation. On lead there body language signs to each other can become confused and their is the added complication of your anxiety transmitting to the dog. Was it aggression that he was showing or desperate excitement - difficult to actually say without seeing it. I would not use a stern ahah to a dog that is already showing fear, that is making the situation more scary and threatening to your dog - I would just turn around and walk away with my dog and the moment he stops stressing over the other dog and looks to me I would give a treat and reward as long as his attention remains on me I would offer rewards very frequently asking for sits and rewarding. Once his focus was really good I'd turn back towards the dog, if his attention is immediately towards the other dog I would immediately turn away again and repeat above. Were you taught a 'watch me' in class?
As fairlie suggests try and enlist calm confident dogs to walk with or near on lead and always try and find the point at which your dog is calm and happy and reward him there. Give him time now to learn it is ok you are on his side and you are in charge and he will be ok in the long run. Again with calm confident dogs find a safe place to let him walk and play off lead with them. i'm not a big fan of dog parks where owners stand still and dogs riot - better by far to actually go for a purposeful walk with the dogs even if you only have an enclosed space. He will learn loads from them and you will also learn to relax which will help!


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

I'm one of those folks who doesn't slow down for a meet and greet when on leash. Although there are these little Yorkers that Lexi and Beemer get down into a crawl position to greet and let the other dogs come to them. Otherwise we are on the move. 

Marzi I've turned the other way a lot. Or I cross the road as the sidewalks aren't really wide enough to pass each other without close contact. I tend to also put my body between the twins and the other dogs when we do have to pass. For Beemer especially it's a bit out of sight out of mind and we are all less reactive so makes the whole dynamic better. And then there are times that I find walking faster/jogging slowly means they move at a trot and completely ignore other dogs. 


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

Thanks Fairlie, Marzi and Lexi&Beemer for your replies. Over the last few weeks I've become increasingly aware that the 4 months mark was very significant for this issue. He has improved hugely. The problem is in trying to improve it I don't have any friends or neighbours near by with a dog. So to help I got a reputable dog walker who has a very well behaved 6 month puppy to take Monty on lunch time walks with her puppy. She reports progress with this issue. My friends and neighbours all think I'm over reacting but they haven't seen this problem in action.

Marzi it is definitely aggression and not excitement. Even though I'm right beside Dublin I've had problems in getting Monty in to classes. Most classes are block booked months in advance and then you had to wait for the vaccinations. So the class he's in at the moment is a turn up at random class. It's advertised as puppy classes but really it's socialisation but very little training. There is a very good trainer I want Monty to do obedience classes with, but he only takes pups from 16 weeks onwards and he is booked up until the end of August but after I emailed him yesterday he replied last night saying he'd see Monty this Saturday. I had mentioned to him in the email about were I was taking Monty for socialisation and he voiced some concerns about going there. I'll stop the "ah ah" as you say Marzi as that makes sense what you're saying. 

I've been working myself on getting him to do the "watch me". I always bring loads of treats (he's not hugely in to toys as a motivator) and by and large it does work. The socialisation class is run by the Irish kennel club but I think it is too big and not enough control. Anyway, the trainer we had last Tuesday was more interested in dissing cockapoos and their owners so I'm not too inclined to go back after experiencing her. 

I did leave Monty in a doggy cay care purposely 2 weeks ago so he'd get used to other older dogs to learn good habits and to go on walks with them, but the lady doesn't bring the dogs on walks on their first day and then she went on holidays for 2 weeks. He got on very well in the house with her dogs. 

There is a guy in my town that apparently does really good socialisation with dogs so I've emailed him this morning to see if he can see Monty this week. I guess from what the 3 of you say it's not as if I have to stop and say hi to everyone we meet with a dog. As long as I can get Monty to the point were he "watches me" and ignores the other dogs then that is the main thing.I've been working a lot on recall at the weekend when he was off lead on my dad's farm and he was really good. When I got back to my own house last night once the green in front of us was quiet I took him out for 5 minutes off lead and he came back every time to me. In fact he will barely leave my side! He really is like a second shadow


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## LuckyCockapoo (May 29, 2017)

I'm a big fan of off lead and letting dogs figure things out themselves. Within reason of course, I feel I have a good sense of other dogs (and owners!) body language and certain breeds. But generally my preference is to go off lead when other dogs are around. I'm also pretty relaxed about the whole thing. 

From 12 weeks Lucky was quiet unsure about other dogs, hid behind my legs, sometimes snapped at their face in a quiet impolite manner. I purposely went lots of walks where he could be off lead and went to meet other dogs. He slowly improved. I then took him to doggy day care for a morning each week to be with other pups and smaller adult dogs. By the 2nd time he did that he was sorted. He had much more confidence and composure with other dogs and now is very friendly and playful with them. Yet he still comes when I call (mostly). 

Much of this the opposite of what dog trainers tell you (and have told me). I've been told not to have him off leash until recall is perfect or that doggy daycare is just going to undo training and bonding and I'll have no control of him. 

Being calm yourself and showing that, creating socialisation opportunities, not making a big fuss about it and giving the dogs in question freedom to engage, disengage and set boundaries for each other is my approach. And if any aggression starts, calmly deal with it rather that add to it.


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

LuckyCockapoo said:


> I'm a big fan of off lead and letting dogs figure things out themselves. Within reason of course, I feel I have a good sense of other dogs (and owners!) body language and certain breeds. But generally my preference is to go off lead when other dogs are around. I'm also pretty relaxed about the whole thing.
> 
> From 12 weeks Lucky was quiet unsure about other dogs, hid behind my legs, sometimes snapped at their face in a quiet impolite manner. I purposely went lots of walks where he could be off lead and went to meet other dogs. He slowly improved. I then took him to doggy day care for a morning each week to be with other pups and smaller adult dogs. By the 2nd time he did that he was sorted. He had much more confidence and composure with other dogs and now is very friendly and playful with them. Yet he still comes when I call (mostly).
> 
> ...


Hi LuckyCockapoo and thanks to you too for your reply.
As an update I did quite a few small walks today supplemented with letting him off the lead and play and practice recall on the green in front of our houses. If I called him over all 30 times he came immediately 28- 1 time because a lorry was going by and I don't think he heard me; the second because he'd found a dead bird and it took some coaxing for him to let go it, despite him being usually very good with the "drop it" command

On one small walk we came across a lady that I know through someone else and as we went by she came out with her elderly dog. I explained the situation and purposely let the lead go even slacker and we played it all very calm and things by and large went quite well. We walked a short distance (her dog growls quite a bit) but overall I could see a huge improvement in Monty. Any other dogs near us on lead today I let the lead go completely slack and had a big treat in my hand as back up and it went well. Not 100% yet but getting there.

Just one thing to yourself or anyone else- off lead this evening he was lying down having his belly ticked by my neighbour when another dog came up on a lead. This dog is docile but is walked by a disinterested teenager. Monty hopped up and started running after the other dog, but didn't bark or seem agitated. I sort off panicked a little bit because being off lead I didn't know if he'd react aggressively or not. I think he was wagging his tail and when I called him back he came back. Should I in future see how it pans out and not call back immediately? In this situation the teenager just kept dragging her dog along so it's hard to know what would have happened as she wasn't going to engage with us anyway.

But I think you are all correct in saying that off lead they'll find their own way pretty quick.


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

I'd call back asap. Partly because you don't know how the other dog is on leash. Also, I'm just not a fan of people letting their off leash dog run at my leashed ones. Sounds like you are feeling more comfortable and confident. That seems to be key for me when I walk my two. 


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Definitely if another dog is on the lead call yours away - it may be that the other dog is fear aggressive or very reactive and is on the lead for that reason. 

Good manners to keep your dog away.

Sounds as if Monty is making good progress


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sounds like he is coming along nicely - and I agree call back from dogs on lead definitely. I would also be just taking it nice and slowly and not worrying about booking into places like daycare where he may end up getting worried by too many dogs.


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

Thanks all again for taking the time to reply. My feeling was to call him back as I'd like another owner to do it with their dog if they were off lead, so only right I'd do it. He's become a little bit stubborn on the lead and wanting to go his way and then sitting if he doesn't so I realised last night my demeanour on walks at times didn't reflect that of a pack leader. So, things changed this morning with my stance and how I hold the lead and things really have improved for the better. It's amazing how much is down to body language and psychology. Thanks all again


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## LuckyCockapoo (May 29, 2017)

Yes I concur, other dogs on leash I'd recall away from - in a calm manner and walk away. As ever, recall is super important. 

For your dog to be comfortably and confidently going up to another dog is a good thing - if it's on the lead or looking aggressive, then I'd tend to call away and move on. Just keep it calm


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

LuckyCockapoo said:


> Yes I concur, other dogs on leash I'd recall away from - in a calm manner and walk away. As ever, recall is super important.
> 
> For your dog to be comfortably and confidently going up to another dog is a good thing - if it's on the lead or looking aggressive, then I'd tend to call away and move on. Just keep it calm


Thanks. We were back at puppy socialisation class on Tuesday night. He was worse than ever  What made it worse was when we were queuing up to pay a lot of new people were there and the kids were holding their puppy's lead. I could see Monty beginning to rear up and asked the kids to keep their dogs a distance from Monty, but all they saw was a cute puppy. And then they saw Monty react quite aggressively. 

Once class started he was great and the trainer (it was our first time with her) thought he was a very well behaved and thus far well trained puppy. She said I'd done a really good job with him so far. When the other dogs were weaving in and around us he was in sit and stay and I did a lot of "look at me" as the puppies were going by. I really liked this trainer and I felt she was by far the best of the 3 we've had to far. She had seen him react to another puppy and she felt it would sort itself out if I persist with what you've all being saying. It is a little depressing though when you see your sweet, gentle puppy react like that though with other very small puppies.


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## LuckyCockapoo (May 29, 2017)

Have patience, it's clear you've done well with him and are committed. He's telling you something with this behaviour (almost certainly fear and anxiety I'd think) and with patience, persistence, calmness and confidence, you will get there with him


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

LuckyCockapoo said:


> Have patience, it's clear you've done well with him and are committed. He's telling you something with this behaviour (almost certainly fear and anxiety I'd think) and with patience, persistence, calmness and confidence, you will get there with him


Thank you for your kind words. Last night a disaster again... and then today it's like he's a new dog 
Met a dog on the street this morning and the owner and I chatted from a distance (we were opposite sides of the street) and after chatting and saying about the issues Monty was having with other dogs, she told me to come over to her and her dog. And Monty started to play with the dog! 
Later today we meet some other very well socialised dogs, some on and off lead and Monty on his and he played great with them. Let him off lead and he had a great time. He turned 16 weeks today and it's almost as if it was just meant to happen. I know it doesn't mean it's plain sailing from here on in but it's given me such a boost. I knew he could do it but hopefully we've now turned the corner with this. Thanks again for all who gave advice


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## LuckyCockapoo (May 29, 2017)

From what you've said I think it's reasonable safe to say he doesn't have a general issue. 

Lucky was fearful of other dogs at 12 weeks, snapping at their faces when they came to sniff. With each walk he started to get better. A morning in doggie daycare with other pups "fixed" him and he became more confident and playful. Several weeks later he's playful with all dogs (at times when I don't want him to be!)

So if he's being friendly, playful and socialising with other dogs sometimes, it doesn't sound like a disaster - just see it as him adjusting. Look for any patterns in when he's like that - before/after food, location, type of dog, etc. My mum said one of our previous dogs always disliked black dogs!


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

LuckyCockapoo said:


> From what you've said I think it's reasonable safe to say he doesn't have a general issue.
> 
> Lucky was fearful of other dogs at 12 weeks, snapping at their faces when they came to sniff. With each walk he started to get better. A morning in doggie daycare with other pups "fixed" him and he became more confident and playful. Several weeks later he's playful with all dogs (at times when I don't want him to be!)
> 
> So if he's being friendly, playful and socialising with other dogs sometimes, it doesn't sound like a disaster - just see it as him adjusting. Look for any patterns in when he's like that - before/after food, location, type of dog, etc. My mum said one of our previous dogs always disliked black dogs!


Yes, I think so now too. Some very good interactions since my last post yesterday and today, both on and off lead. Off lead in a safe environment, and even when one older dog snapped at him, there was no issue with Monty. He is going to a doggy day care tomorrow but that's as much in I've a work thing tomorrow that would leave me late home from work and the other person here isn't available all day to mind him. So we'll see how it goes from here but I'm very relieved.


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## LuckyCockapoo (May 29, 2017)

Sounds like he'll be just fine! 

Is this his first time at doggie day care? It felt like dropping a child off at first day of school for me.


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## The Marvellous Mr Monty (Jun 9, 2017)

LuckyCockapoo said:


> Sounds like he'll be just fine!
> 
> Is this his first time at doggie day care? It felt like dropping a child off at first day of school for me.


It was actually!  He went to one on Monday, as much that he'd be used to it, for the rare time I might need to be away for the day with work, and he got on brilliantly. There were 2 other pups there, plus the ladies 2 older dogs. They went for walks on the lead and played all day 

He went to another one yesterday, as much for the same reason as above but this guy also works on socialisation a bit more and again he did great. And what a welcome I got when I collected him 

Huge difference in him now in the last few days. Last night he met our neighbour's dog from a few doors down. I deliberately didn't let them meet before now as their dog is 15 months, was taken at 5 weeks, never socialised and is left on her own pretty much all day  And therefore is very aggressive and unhappy. Despite all her growling at Monty, he kept trying to initiate play with her and didn't react negatively at all to her at any point. And he got loads of praise from me and treats for being such a good boy


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