# Pheasants, pigeons, deer, crows etc



## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

Hi, I've been meaning to post for ages but it's finally got to the point where we really would like some advice. We've got a lovely, friendly, sweet natured cockapoo. She is 8 months old and hasn't had a season as yet. She is definitely more working cocker than poo in the way she looks and behaves. I hope I've managed to attach some images so you can see her. Her general character is quite submissive.

Problem is..... Inside house and garden she is a sweet little poppet. In the countryside she is A WOLF!! We've worked endlessly on recall, remote stay, down etc and 85% she is good. So couldn't be happier with that. 15% .... Oh dear!!!! 

She catches a scent, sees crows in field, pheasants, deer etc and she literally takes off. Sometimes I won't have time to anticipate and she's gone.

I always walk somewhere safe, not near roads etc but we are surrounded by pheasant shoots. Although i do my utmost to manage a situation by anticipating and flexi leads and bags full of treats its impossible to be 100 percent incontrol. I am worried that we will get in trouble with gamekeeper or she will get shot. It's also really embarrassing when she's chasing geese by the river. You get those looks! Like the ones you get when you baby used to cry in TESCO.

Sometimes she will leave it!!!! When I command. I'm really chuffed. She takes treat and when I release her, she legs it after them again. 

Are there any experts out there to HELP. I've done 2 sets of puppy classes, read books on predatory chasing and combed the Internet but wondering whether it can be stopped at all or just have to live with it. She seems extremely satisfied after a good old chase :-(

She doesn't chase joggers or bikers or other dogs



Any ideas?


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

It's her breed instincts running wild, it's very very hard to stop those as it is something bred into them. Is there anyway you can work with those instincts rather than asking her to try and ignore them?
Scent work would be good, google scent work with dogs and you should gain some great info.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I would look and see if there are any gundog trainers in your area, the training class I went to said they would train us to be able to stop a dog in its tracks but it had no effect on my boy! he is like yours, I couldn't consider having him off lead near livestock or deer etc, he will chase crows but has only gone half way across a field before realising he can't get them and then runs back (or has so far), Gun dogs are trained to work and Listen, i'm thinking of trying a trainer near me although heard mixed reviews, I think she is tough and not treat based - I think a lot of trainers of real working dogs maybe like this but maybe it is what ours need? Good luck.


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

*Images of chasing wolf*

Here's a wolf in lovely sweet sheep's clothing


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## MillieDog (Jun 1, 2011)

I had similar with Millie, not quite running after pheasants (she hasn't come across one), but up until about 1year/18 months she was a nightmare.

She chased deer in Richmond Park - not quite to the Fenton standard, but then chased three men galloping through. Luckily she ran out of steam and came back.

We often walk in park with lots of swans, geese and ducks. She's ran onto the ice after two ducks who crossed her path  That was a worry. She has also scattered a photo shot of two people sitting on a park bench with about fifty birds all being fed 

Her favourite was to find any dead animal, pick it up and happily keen well away from me. I'd try and call her back, but ended up chasing her round the park - visions of Keystone Cops springs to mind.

So two things happened to greatly improve things. I trained her whenever I could, the same as you're doing now and like you it was sometimes hit and miss. But keep with it, the training does sink in. Add in lots of excitement and praise if she gets it right and comes back to you.

Secondly, maturity kicked in. A lot of the reason for all the chasing and causing chaos was puppy behaviour. She gradually grew out of it and if she does decide to chase something now, it is half hearted and she usually stops when called. 

Millie still chases crows - she knows where crows sit there may well be 'food'. I don't mind this, the difference now is its almost just a game to her and if she finds something dead now, she just marks it with a wee  I can live with that


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## Toffin (Aug 8, 2012)

DB1 said:


> I would look and see if there are any gundog trainers in your area, the training class I went to said they would train us to be able to stop a dog in its tracks but it had no effect on my boy! he is like yours, I couldn't consider having him off lead near livestock or deer etc, he will chase crows but has only gone half way across a field before realising he can't get them and then runs back (or has so far), Gun dogs are trained to work and Listen, i'm thinking of trying a trainer near me although heard mixed reviews, I think she is tough and not treat based - I think a lot of trainers of real working dogs maybe like this but maybe it is what ours need? Good luck.


We're thinking of trying gundog training. Puppy classes are OK but it's a one size fits all approach (has to be really) and all the time spent teaching not to food guard and basic commands is all a bit of a waste. Someone near us in E'burgh (1 year old working cocker) went to a gundog trainer in Fyfe and learnt more in one session than in a whole series of obedience classes.

What's the name of the person near you?

Toffin
x


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Poodles were originally bred to hunt and retrieve too - so the working thing is definitely in poos - my cava-poo-nut is definitely the most hunt obsessed dog I've ever had - and I've had GSDs, rottie cross, jack russell and border collie ... at six months old Kiki absolutely loves hunting around the blackberry bushes after bunnies - but she really likes chasing the little birds she puts up or hunting field mice (I assume) in the long meadow grass. At the moment it is cute and she has not had the opportunity to hunt bigger prey... Reading your post has made me think that perhaps I shouldn't smile so indulgently as I watch her bombing around terrorizing the local small wildlife...
I think that you are doing all the right things.
Having spent as much time as I could on my godmather's farm when I was younger I do know that gundog training is rigorous and gamekeepers are pretty fierce trainers! That said the dogs loved the game keeper and would fall over themselves in the effort to be closest to him. Working dogs love to work!
Good luck with your beautiful wolf...


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## Duckdog (Jul 23, 2012)

Yep Binky is the same! Although at the moment she comes back when I call *crosses fingers*. We were out yesterday in the countryside and she was at it...bird spotted...nose forward...tail horizontal..one paw up...and she's off!! Yesterday we had to unpick her from a bramble bush after one such episode! 

Gun dog training is interesting and not thought of that before so will look into it. In the mean time we have been doing very mini agility..and she loves it, so I have ordered a beginners set off amazon.

By the way your wolf is adorable!


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Been thinking about this all evening, how sad am I?
Maybe your Wolf needs to be more focused on you during walks... does she like balls? Could you take one with you on walks with a slinger... My collie who is a working nut loves her ball and I trained her early on so that I could leave a ball behind us and the nat some point send her back for it - she will go back quarter of a mile, easily - the only problem is if there are other dogs around and they nick the ball!!
All the time she is waiting for the command to go back she is fixed on me - willing me to send her back, no time to think about chasing anything.
She lhas also done flyball and agility too, both excellent ways of getting your dog thinking and listening, flyball less so - but boy do the dogs love it!!
Good luck.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

The hunting instinct certainly is bred into both spaniels and poodles. In my part of suburban Surrey there aren't too many things to hunt but I can tell you my two hunt and chase everything they can - ducks, squirrels, foxes, birds, field mice, frogs, spiders in fact anything that moves. I have to be very careful around swans, horses and deer when I go to the woods, lakes and large parks as their instinct just tends to take over.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Toffin said:


> We're thinking of trying gundog training. Puppy classes are OK but it's a one size fits all approach (has to be really) and all the time spent teaching not to food guard and basic commands is all a bit of a waste. Someone near us in E'burgh (1 year old working cocker) went to a gundog trainer in Fyfe and learnt more in one session than in a whole series of obedience classes.
> 
> What's the name of the person near you?
> 
> ...


It is Gaynor from Mistigri Gundogs (they do have a website), they breed working labs and do serious working gindog training but they do also do pet dog obedience - probably a bit far from you but she maybe able to recommend someone closer. I really want to do agility with Dudley and hope that will channel his energy and improve his listening (to me) skills but I may try Gaynor in the future if the agility isn't enough. Having said he has working instincts...he is always sniffing the ground but is more like a sight hound as he only takes off when he see's something move. We considered rehoming a border terrier once and were lucky enough to have him a few weekends first - the main reason we decided against it was he was terribly dog aggressive, but the other worry was that when he got a scent he was gone!! amazing to see but I couldn't cope that he would streak away across huge fields out of sight and there was no stopping him, he came back after a long 5 or 10 minutes but I doubted he would ever grow out of that habit.


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

Lots of great advice. I'm going to look into gun dog training but slightly concerned that they might be a bit dismissive of my 'fluffy' gun dog! 
It's great to hear I'm not the only one with chasing pops though. I was thinking of Millie's Fenton moment on my walk this moment and it was making me chuckle. 20 mins later and my wolf was doing the same... Oh dear not so funny. She just spots them before I do!!!

I've read a great book called STOP PREDATORY CHASING. I would recommend it. In it he recommends a similar thing to Marzi. Get them hooked on a ball. I spent a month trying to get her obsessed with ball. Problem is, she loves a ball but when a pheasant turns up, she's off. :-(. Just off on a walk. Wish me luck.


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## MillieDog (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh I did have a chuckle, thinking of a 'fluffy' gun dog. I hadn't thought of that


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I did think we maybe looked down on a bit, but hoped his wonderful character may covert a trainer!


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## redecoffee (Dec 3, 2012)

Maybe take them to a cockapoo meet if you haven't?
When people have OCD (for example) it acts as a primal urge and they have to develop "coping mechanisms". So maybe the cockapoo will learn from other cockapoo's in the same way someone with OCD learns from support groups. It is just a hunch from a documentary I saw on common mental conditions.


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

Thanks again for all offers of help. I must come on a meet and meet some well behaved Cockapoos. That might work. I've been on a walk with a crazy working cocker and that definitely didn't help so better behaved poos might just work. TBH she is absolutely lovely almost all the time. Sweet, gentle, funny etc. She may go a whole week being perfect on a walk; staying close, looking at me for instruction, coming back to whistle, remote sit/down and even waiting at stiles for me to over first. However, she will catch me out, particularly when I'm thinking I've cracked it.......she'll see a group of deer in the woods and like a rocket she's off. It's really not funny is it. I'm worried that they will lead her into more trouble (pheasant enclosure) or onto a road! I know she's going through challenging adolescence and all I can do is keep going and possibly find fluffy gun dog trainer. I thought walks were supposed to be relaxing. My brain hurts! Lucky she is so cute. I think our cockapoo has inherited every bit of hunting instinct from poodle and working cocker! I bet there is a cockapoo out there somewhere which has inherited absolutely no hunting instinct. I like a challenge though.


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## MillieDog (Jun 1, 2011)

Do you ever see the Deer before her? You might like to try and intercept her behaviour, ie call her to you to sit and stay. Let her see the deer and if she tried to go for them, give a firm No and praise for staying with you - even if you do have hold of her collar  I think gradually she may learn that she doesn't have to chase the deer and that you don't want her to either.

It really will be hit and miss for a while. She does remind me of Millie when she was a puppy. But she has virtually grown out of it. I say virtually, as you never know, I may go on a walk tomorrow and she'll blow it


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

MillieDog said:


> Do you ever see the Deer before her? You might like to try and intercept her behaviour, ie call her to you to sit and stay. Let her see the deer and if she tried to go for them, give a firm No and praise for staying with you - even if you do have hold of her collar  I think gradually she may learn that she doesn't have to chase the deer and that you don't want her to either.
> 
> It really will be hit and miss for a while. She does remind me of Millie when she was a puppy. But she has virtually grown out of it. I say virtually, as you never know, I may go on a walk tomorrow and she'll blow it


I will definitely keep my eyes peeled for deer. Sometimes I can call her off chasing crows by saying Leave It. She actually does leave it. Will keep at it with new enthusiasm with the thought that when she gets to 2 she might have 'grown out' of some of her chasing, like Millie. I swear she's just 'joining in' rather than wanting to KILL though. Lets hope so otherwise it's venison for tea. Only joking.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Oh dear Dudley's instincts kicked in big time yesterday as he got in with our chickens - luckily Hubby was close at hand to dive in and grab Dudley before any real damage was done. We have really got to put a really strong fence up as I can't let Dudley in our garden without being on the lead now as its the 2nd time he has managed to get in. I did look at dog runs as they are strong enough to keep dogs in I guess they should be strong enough to keep dogs out, but most look like horrid high security prisons. I had hoped having Dudley from a pup he wouldn't have bothered too much with them, but sadly not the case.


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

CHICKENS I just can't imagine having any kind of bird/prey on the premises. You are BRAVE. Dudley sounds like a real character. Butter wouldn't melt to look at them eh! Glad poor little chucks were OK. If we ever get another dog we'd have to find a vegetarian hippie dog that LOVES all creatures and doesn't want to pluck off their feathers/fur. Only joking. I think I may be describing a guinea pig. It's just the thought of 2 dogs that love chasing.  Of course we still love our cockapoo.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Not brave, just naive thinking a pup growing up seeing them everyday would come to think of them as part of the family - yeah sure, a family member that is fun to chase and would taste great too!!


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

How old is Dudley? We have three chickens and Max has chased them but stops if we shout 'NO' he is almost 20 weeks old now, mostly he ignores them, but wondering if there is trouble on the horizon!


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Dudley is 10 months now - to be honest he has always been interested in them, but a firm no did work but the odd occasion he just seems to get a stronger scent or something and gets more determined, I wish now I had let him go in with them when he was tiny as a good peck would have hurt and he may have learnt from it, but as he was smaller then them at the time it seemed like a cruel idea! ours are just behind a flexible plastic mesh with wooden poles in the ground (and bricks all along the bottom!)as they have a good area bigger than most runs but we will have to get a more secure run - more money!!


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## EvaClareEva (Oct 11, 2011)

OMG this is the funniest thing I've heard my Cockapoo lottie who is 3 is exactly as you describe she is from a show cocker but she is obsessed and has even caught 2 partridges and carried them home in her mouth!!! We live in the country and my back garden backs straight onto a farmers field as soon as I open the gate she shoots like a rocket to crows at the end of the field but always comes back and although she goes of chasing birds,rabbits she will always come back to see where I am and the same is not interested in bikes,joggers what I do is always keep calling her back which she does carry on so she never knows when she's going back on lead x


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

I only have three chickens and the funny thing is that with Mandy they would eyeball her and she would slink off, kept telling her she was the predator but she didn't believe me, however as soon as we took Max into the garden at 10 weeks, they knew immediately who was top dog! I have a grey one that eyeballs him, but my rhode island red just flies up onto the storage box for safety. I am hoping that he knows they are mine as I did tap him on the bottom with a broom and yelled at him last time he chased them. We shall see!


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## Green Fairy (Oct 31, 2011)

Oooh this is a trait my cockapoo has too and it's getting worse as he's getting older, he's getting more skilled! 

So far he's tracking/chasing pheasant, foxes, rabbits, deer, chicken. Luckily not managed to catch anything but the worry is he's getting deafer and deafer and more and more bold. 

He's run out of whatever area we're in, totally out of sight for a good few minutes though, thankfully, he's always come back. 

On Friday he ran under a fence (nothing in sight this was all based on scent) and across a road to get to a field on the other side. I felt sick watching him go and he was totally switched off from all attempts to get him to come back which he did do, fairly quickly but on his terms, again crossing the road without using his green cross code. 

Another walk which I thought was safe, is now condemned to lead only. I'm terrified he (or anything he's chasing) will get hit by a car. But I don't like the thought of him not being able to run free either. 

Outside of the house he's not interested at all in treats, balls or toys, the only thing that does it for him is whatever he can sniff, he's constantly tracking.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Love the "fluffy gundog" - that describes our poos so well! 
Mine met two foxes one early morning this week in my local park. The foxes weren't scared of them at all and were just strolling around. My two went berserk! It was like I no longer existed as they chased them from one end of the park to the other and they were both trembling with excitement for ages after!


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

Oh this all seems so familiar. It's quite distressing isn't it? It's just the lack of control and the look in their eye. They just become mini wolves!!! Apparently, those dogs with a high prey drive will be starting to get quite adept at /hunting/flushing/chasing between ages 9 months and 20 months. As they get a bit more confident, they get so adrenalised and deafness sets in :-( we are about to start pet gun dog training. With Apple we have hit upon a technique of keeping her really close, whistling her back before she gets too far and continually throwing balls etc. It certainly does help but she isnt as satisfied with her walk. She would rather be running amock. It pays to keep her steady as adrenaline is not a friend. I do envy those dog owners who can go for a lovely relaxed dog walk in the countryside, with no yelling and frantic whistling!!! She is getting better and I am assured that something magic happens at 3-4 years, if you keep up the training!!! Only 3 years to go then.......I do go green when I see other Cockapoos/dogs just strolling around sniffing the flowers and looking confused when they see bird/deer.


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## Green Fairy (Oct 31, 2011)

Chintzy - would be interested to hear how the gun dog training goes, when do you start and how old is your dog?

Have just come back from another walk, luckily uneventful but had to work hard at distracting Ryley when he put his nose in the air towards where the wind was coming from! My throat is hoarse from calling him and I can't say it's a relaxing time I have with him (unless he's kept on a lead). 

Somebody told me that a Cockerpoo has the 'disadvantage' of having the flushing instinct of the spaniel coupled with the retrieving skill of the poodle, so they won't give up on simply finding/flushing, they keep chasing to catch! Oh whoopy  !!!


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

Now, I'm no expert but I've just read a life changing book that might help you Green Fairy. It's called The Pet Gun Dog by Lez Graham. You can buy on Amazon. She actually runs some weekly sessions in Marlborough, Wilts but they are on Weds am so can't make them. I've read the book twice now and it's really helped us!!!! 

Not sure if the poodle/working cocker mix is worse than a pure cocker, in terms of the flushing/retrieving. We went on a walk with my friends working cocker recently whose just reached THAT AGE and we didn't see him for dust. He was flushing, chasing, running off etc. We could hear him too, barking for England in the woods 1/2 km away!!!! STRESSY or what!!!! It's an untrained gun dog thing rather than cockapoo thing.

Unfortunately, there's no magic bullet. From what I understand its s combination of: using dog language and be the leader, tight control on a walk (no further than 10m away), teaching them to be steady around prey, giving them a job to do on a walk (carry something, search for something, fetch, leave it, walk to heel of lead). Let me know how if book helps you . One day a walk will
be relaxing but at the moment it makes my brain ache! Our dog is almost 10
Months old. Oh and we use a whistle which cuts down on the fish wife shouting.


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## Green Fairy (Oct 31, 2011)

Hi Chintzy

Only just read your post :embarrassed: I have ordered the book thanks.

A while ago Ryley caught a chicken ! We've done a recall workshop and, of course, Ryley was the perfect pooch in a confined space with nothing else to do except work for sausage! Not much has changed on the loose though.

I've tried using a long training line which tripped everybody up, got tangled in everything and wasn't much use - gave me rope burn too! 

The whistle works reasonably well so long as he's not already focused on something. Will keep working at it!


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

I have been using the tennis ball in the mouth technique with Betty ( fortunately she loves to carry one around) and it seems to have helped enourmously ...for now!!


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## Chintzy (Feb 10, 2012)

Excellent news. I don't know what it is about 'carrying something in their mouths' but it really seems to help. Either they are nurturing it like a puppy or carrying like prey! LOL! Who knows but it's still working. The other great thing is when you take the ball/stick/dummy from them, they are totally fixated on it. It's perfect if you need to distract them from birds or enthusiastically greeting other dog walkers (wearing light coloured trousers!). The book says that if you stop them chasing for long enough, you can make some new neural connections - which I think means they forget about chasing animals and birds instinctively and now think you, the ball/stick/dummy is the bees knees.... We've been at it for 8 months now, every walk in training mode and I've seen a big improvement. It's not that she isn't seeing prey anymore it's just she's forgotten about how good it feels (adrenaline) to chase and she'd much rather play chase/retrieve with us. Too soon to say cured but definitely hope on the horizon if you live with a cheeky chasing scamp! Be good to know how if it works for others.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

A ball is good with Dexter too as he adores his chuck-it ball. It doesn't work for Bonnie as she drops the ball as soon as she finds an interesting smell.


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