# Been awol a while, and NEED YOUR HELP :(



## AliAlfie (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi everyone, long time no see. 
As you can imagine, life with non-stop wind and rain, and 4 poos has been incredibly hectic and dirty, boy an I fed up with the mud everywhere! 

I won't lie and say its been easy, it certainly is hard work and not to be entered into lightly, but we do adore our poo family. 

Now, onto the bad bit...about a month ago we had the big boys neutered. The ops went well, although Dexter took a while longer to heal, (he was very well endowed compared to Alfie! ) All was ok until a few days after, when we got the first taste of nastiness; Dexter became really aggressive towards Alfie, full-on growling, teeth baring, fighting on hind legs etc. It was quite a shock, and frightened the kids too. We spoke to the vet, who said it may well be a due to the drop in hormones, him feeling insecure and confused, and sometimes happens after neutering, but should calm down. So, after a fortnight, we hadn't seen any more incidences, except the first couple, and thought all was well. BUT...over the last few days it has just gotten worse and worse, it's totally awful and incredibly upsetting. He looks and sounds so viscious, and Alfie tries to submit by turning away and not reacting, but Dexter corners him and just goes for him. Its been getting worse, not better, and poor Alfie is obviously getting upset by it as he's had a few toilet accidents indoors over the last couple of days. It is breaking our hearts and casting such a shadow over our little family, we really don't know what to do.  We tried separating them but as soon as they are back together it starts again. We wondered if it is the fight for dominance, (although we didn't see this before he was fixed,) so were thinking maybe let them get on with it until dominance has been established (providing neither of them is in danger of getting hurt of course.) What do you think? Has anyone had any experiences of this, or have any advice as to if/when it might stop? Roxy and Dudley are a little wary, but seem generally unperturbed by it, thankfully. It is making things very tense and we are even a bit scared of Dexter, although he's never shown any aggression towards us, or indeed any other dog but Alfie.

I would really appreciate any help anyone might have.

Thanks everyone.


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh Ali, what a distressing time your having, I really feel for you - it must be awful to see poor Alfie been bullied by dexter. 
I really have no experience or real advice to offer - except speak to the vet again, and maybe a dog behaviourist (but they don't come cheap!) you can pinpoint it to post neuter, is there any more advice or experiences shared on google?
I hope the little ones are ok?
Kendal might be on and advise more - or marzi?? Xx


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Ps lovely to hear from you! 
Reading again, are you sure dexter has properly healed?


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Sorry you are having such a trying time.  It sounds to me like he is either very stressed and overreacting because of that or trying to establish dominance where it really does not belong to him or is uncertain. I only know what I have read which is to let them get it over with in a fight and then totally respect what they have decided. Whoever wins must go through doors first, have a better spot to sleep, walk ahead, be fed first, be allowed special privilages and so forth for both dogs sakes. 

If it is stress then I am not sure, maybe offer him a place of his own where he can relax, take him for walks alone and so forth. Easier said than done with such a busy family. I hope Marzi, Kendal or Donna will have more insight for you.


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## AliAlfie (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks ladies, it really is awful, and we want our Dexter back! 

We have had him checked, he's definitely healed properly, all very neat etc. and he is physically good as new, racing round the fields etc. He's also become a bit 'sad-looking' (hard to describe it, but he seems a little withdrawn?) and he's started licking us like a mad thing (hands mainly) when he comes and sits with us. 

What's bizarre, is that one minute he'll be mad-aggressive towards Alfie, the next he's sat next to him on the sofa and they're kissy-licking each other's mouths!?!?! 

Tracey, its really hard work taking 4 of them for a walk at the same time, but I could try and take Dexter for one on his own occasionally too, even if its just a short one, thanks.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

It sounds like a dominance thing. Licking is reserved for the top dog or mother dog, which is why behaviourists say to never let your dog "kiss" you.


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

The other reason maybe roxy? Maybe dexters just making sure he's top dog for the female??
And if you've been reading my posts lately about Ralph and ruby, having the males neutered does NOT discourage them from a female in heat...... I'd definitely get roxy done ASAP pre season or life will be hell!!! (Ha just what you want to hear!! .... I've had R&R at it for a whole week - stuck together 3 times  & that's with me doing everything I can to keep them apart..... Obviously not enough!) thankfullŷ Ralph has been done, I'm just hoping there is no phantom pregnancy.....
Anyway sorry enough about mine :focus:
I hope it settles down or gets sorted soon, do you treat dexter like top dog, feeding first, greeting first etc - so he has no need to challenge Alfie?? X


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

You poor thing, it sounds a horrid situation to be in, hopefully it is still the hormones settling as he sounds like a confused boy, my Dudley was quite cocky before his op and my sister did say he may get worse before getting better afterwards( for a month or more), he didn't really change though just gradually calmed down, I'm guessing you have googled to see if you can find anyone who had a similar problem?


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Poor you, what a rotten time - mud, mud, mud - operations and now dominance issues.
It probably sounds worse than it is, but that does not make it any less frightening for you.
Try not to react emotionally yourself as the dogs will pick up on that. Tricky with four, but try to make time for individual training, and also group training. Use treats a lot, so Dexter looks to you. Does he pick on Alfie only when you are around, or do you think it happens when they are on their own? Is this behaviour worse when they are inside, or also when they are outside?

Have a stiff drink and keep breathing.


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm afraid I don't really have any advice, but I can imagine how upsetting it must be to see your dog change so much. 

The only thing I can think to add is could it be another health problem bothering him which is a complete coincidence to the time you had him neutered? I know this seems unlikely as neutering involves hormones and this sounds like it could be related to that. But always worth considering I suppose as they do say any time your dog's behaviour changes to check for health issues

It is interesting that it is limited to between him and alfie and that he isn't behaving this way towards the little ones. I suppose that could be more evidence that it is a hormone/dominance/finding his way in the world type thing if he doesn't consider the little ones to be a threat in the ranking?


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

Tinman said:


> The other reason maybe roxy? Maybe dexters just making sure he's top dog for the female??
> And if you've been reading my posts lately about Ralph and ruby, having the males neutered does NOT discourage them from a female in heat...... I'd definitely get roxy done ASAP pre season or life will be hell!!! (Ha just what you want to hear!! .... I've had R&R at it for a whole week - stuck together 3 times  & that's with me doing everything I can to keep them apart..... Obviously not enough!) thankfullŷ Ralph has been done, I'm just hoping there is no phantom pregnancy.....
> Anyway sorry enough about mine :focus:
> I hope it settles down or gets sorted soon, do you treat dexter like top dog, feeding first, greeting first etc - so he has no need to challenge Alfie?? X


Oh my goodness.. poor Roxy fending off THREE boys! 

(not that Ruby is exactly fending off Ralph though!)


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Grove said:


> Oh my goodness.. poor Roxy fending off THREE boys!
> 
> (not that Ruby is exactly fending off Ralph though!)


Exactly - just the opposite - she harasses Ralph to the point where he needs a restraining order!! She is still stood ready (in Billy's undies) with her tail,swished to the side, twerking in his face (dirty minx!!) 
Although I think she is a bit upset tonight, her irresistible charms must be wearing off as he has shown slightly more interest in his bull horn and ball than her tonight!  x


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## dmgalley (Aug 19, 2012)

I am having the same issue with Jake and Ozzy. in the beginning it was 90% of the time he sounded like he was going to kill him. He would fly after him, teeth bared and snarling. The other 10% he would ignore him completely. 
Now we have about 60% trying to eat him, 30% ignoring him and 105 trying to play with him. 
I know it is different because Ozzy is new on the scene but one thing we did was start making an effort to make Jake enjoy being near Ozzy. Then we started helping them play together. Our next step is going to be taking them to a training class together.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Donna you are a poster mother of perfect dog training and problem solving!


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Lovely to hear from you Ali. Glad to hear your poo family but sorry you're having some dominance issues with the big boys. 

I hope you get plenty of advice from our experts. Xx


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## dmgalley (Aug 19, 2012)

fairlie said:


> Donna you are a poster mother of perfect dog training and problem solving!


Nope... I cried to Mo and she gave me some really good ideas. She told me to give Jake a really good treat every time he was near Ozzy and behaved well. She said to make Jake see Ozzy and being with Ozzy as a good thing. I would create situations and then make a huge deal of it and treat him. 
It really did help. 

I think it is also important is to really watch what is going on. We noticed that every time Jake even started to play with Ozzy willow would intervene, so he was not really learning how to play.


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

Beemer did the same after he had his surgery. He seemed much more anxious and barks at people and kids after the surgery. He was always the more anxious of the two. Now I know it looks like dexter is the bad guy but is check to see what Alfie is doing too right before. It's usually when it gets loud that I paid attention so it would always seem like Beemer was beating up in Lexi. Turns out I was wrong. Lexi rarely had her tail tucked in and cowering from Beemer. No, she instigated then would leave him hanging when I thought something was going on. My beautiful girl has mastered the 'oh I'm so scared pitiful me' look down. This is not to say that Alfie is doing anything bad but I would look at antecedents of the behavior too. 

Now Lexi is the dominant one even though Beemer is the louder one. You can see this when they are walking (she likes to be a little ahead). And when we go to a pet store or any other fun place he always looks to her and follows her lead. I spend extra time with Beemer and really try to teach him to be calmer. It could be that Alfie was there before to help him calm down and as they are both experiencing changes, so that what used to be ok for Alfie and he isn't responding how dexter was used to, so dexter is just getting more frustrated. So dexter just needs more help. I tried to practice the tellington ttouch thing that Dawn described. I know it wasn't right on but Beemer seemed much calmer. 

Not sure any of this helps. But big hugs to everyone from me and the twins. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hfd (Aug 19, 2011)

Nice to hear of your lovely gang Ali and although I don't have any advice I just wanted to wish you all the very best and good luck with Dexter, sure he will soon settle down. One thing I have noticed with training and issues is that once you start to correct them they sometimes get a little worse before they get better.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

You could try a pheromone collar to see if that could help. Sorry I can't be more helpful. You can gEt plug in ones too. Or give him a massage with some lavender oil. Lavender is very calming.


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## dio.ren (Jan 18, 2013)

Hi Ali nice to see you back! I can't offer any advice but I hope that you get your old Dexter back!


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## Minnie (Jun 8, 2012)

We had a problem with Merlin at Xmas time. He attacked Bess 3 times one of which my hubby had to shove him off of her has he had got her round her throat and she was squealing. 
I was so upset and couldn't understand it, although we have issues with his aggression he as always been fine with Bess (apart from when we first got her) so we were stunned by his behaviour towards her.
Then we found he has something stuck in his paw which we removed straight away and he was fine then. He had obviously been in pain and attacked her because of this. No problem since.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

There were two shitzus in our puppy class who were brothers and they started off great companions. After a while they had really bad dominance competitiveness and they used to have awful fights during the class. In the end the grandmother of the family took on one of the dogs as they just couldn't live together. Maybe a behaviourist could help you.


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

How are things going now?

Hope it has settled since your last posts


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I would also like to know - your FOUR poos are keeping you busy clearly!


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