# Help re choice of breeder



## TheCookieMonsters (Jan 7, 2012)

Hallo, am after some input/advice on the minefield that is buying a puppy.

We have now read a lot of threads on this issue and know that the common sense advice is "no health screening, no sale". The problem we have is that (before we had found the advice on here) we approached a hobby breeder who seems like a very nice lady who cares very much for dogs in general. She has been pretty accommodating and has answered a number of questions we had and when asked about the health screening, she has told us that she knows the family pedigree/lineage of both her pet Cocker and stud poodle, and that's as good as any health screening and we should be happy with that. Have also asked our local vet (well, the receptionist) and she seemed to agree with this theory that if you know the history you don't necessarily need to insist on health screens as there are many, many common afflictions that you would not be looking for anyway.

Would be interested in hearing a few opinions on this as we are really nervous as this will be our first puppy and almost everything is telling us that we like the idea the puppy has been raised in a loving family environment by someone who has got a real kick out of seeing her "little girl" deliver a litter (her second) but there is still a little niggle about whether we should just leave it alone based the best practice advice on websites such as this.

From what we've read on here, there aren't any tell tale signs of foul play and we have been invited into the breeders home and will have time with the mum dog, other family dogs and the remaining puppies.

I guess what we're looking for is reassurance that we're not completely nuts to follow our hearts (and 80-90% of our heads) and continue with this puppy and I suppose some advice on what to look for and ask when we go visit in terms of judging the quality/health history of the pedigree/lineage.

Thanks in advance for any replies.


----------



## Laura(L)Izzie (Sep 9, 2011)

You MUST make sure that the puppy will not develop PRA, if the parents haven't had any tests done how can she ensure this? Have all previous parents being tested for this & none have been carriers?

It is very important that you make sure your puppy will not develop PRA as it makes dogs go blind in the future which is obviously not nice for the dogs.

In regards to any other tests, many breeders don't do them atm, such as hip scoring. But PRA really should be tested for (at least in the sire as if one parent is clear the pup will not get it, although could still be a carrier to any future litters if mother hadn't been tested and was a carrier).

Just something to think about, but ultimately it will be your dog & your choice to make, but most people on this forum are big on health testing.


----------



## loobylou (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi!
i waited for someone else to go first but I would agree with Laura. Although it has to be said thats its very difficult with cockapoos not to be ruled by your heart!


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Hi and welcome. 

I am sorry to say it but I would keep looking for a breeder. I am sure the lady is lovely and loves her dogs but it is not adequate to have knowledge of the parent dogs lineage to prevent against illness in the puppies.

There are plenty of hobby breeders out there who do health test and as a minimum I would find one that DNA tests at least one parent for PRA. Personally I would look for more than that.  Unfortunately I wouldn't consider a vet receptionist an expert on health testing dogs no matter how helpful they were. 

Please have a look at The Cockapoo Owners Club website on finding a breeder. It is full of useful advice and things to consider such as health tests. http://www.cockapoo-owners-club.org.uk/cockapoo_finding_a_breeder.html

Obviously health tests are not the only important thing to think about. The temperament of the parent dogs and how the puppies will be raised are also important. It might take longer to find the right breeder for you but it will be worth it in the long run.


----------



## weez74 (Feb 9, 2011)

I don't know much about PRA, but surely it's the same as any illness where you have to have both parents as carriers. You see it all the time in humans. If people knew they were carriers, a lot of genetic problems would be wiped out by them not having babies with another carrier. The problem is they just don't know they are carriers, because none of their ancestors have ever had children with another carrier.

What I'm trying to say is that that there must be a chance that there are carriers all the way back up both lines, but this has never been noticed because they have never been paired with another carrier. So there could easily have been no illness in any of the family, but two carriers will still produce an ill pup.

Like I say though, I don't know much about it so maybe I'm missing something here.


----------



## Laura(L)Izzie (Sep 9, 2011)

No Louise I think you're right, but like you say if there have been any carriers in the pedigree lines of both the cockers & poodles it will always be possible that the dogs they are using to breed now could be carriers if they haven't been tested :/

It's just whether or not it's worth the risk, personally I don't think it's a risk I would ever be willing to take because I can't imagine how awful it would be if it came to the stage where my dog went blind (it generally happens when they're adults as well which means you will be massively attached). It would be awful


----------



## TheCookieMonsters (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks and appreciate the candid responses.

I have one more question though, are PRA test results linked back to pedigree records in any way ie could we check health history with the KC if I got the pedigree certificate showing the family tree? Am I clutching at straws yet?!

As you point out loobylou, the puppies don't make this easy. We have had people say to go to her house, ask a bunch more questions and see what conditions are like etc but the danger is obviously once you make eye contact with the damned thing you're gonna be a gonner, right?! Especially with 2 young hyper excited daughters in tow.

Thanks again for the opinions and hope someone might be able to set us straight on the question above.


----------



## Laura(L)Izzie (Sep 9, 2011)

I suppose if both parents have been PRA tested clear all the way back down the line then that is a way to show that you pup probably couldn't have it, however it seems common for only one parent to be tested before matings which means that if you don't know whether or not the other parents was a carrier that you don't know what was passed down to these parents... I suppose if you look at the papers you will know (but both parents should have been tested all the way back down the line for you to know for sure).


----------



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

If the dog is KC registered you can enter the KC name or registration number and see the health test results on the Kennel club website. 

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx


----------



## weez74 (Feb 9, 2011)

I guess if there are lots of records, then you may feel the risk is small, but given that testing is available from lots of breeders and it eliminates the risk entirely, I personally wouldn't take dog from untested parents.


----------



## mandym (Jun 5, 2011)

I would definately look for a breeder who tests and has proof of this.anyone can say the lines their dogs come from are clear.there are plenty of hobby breeders who health test,i for one health test my dogs although i dont have pups just no but many do,good luck in your search x


----------



## TheCookieMonsters (Jan 7, 2012)

Wow, thanks for that and assume that should show any PRA results?

So, would it be correct to say that my last chance is...........if at least one of the dogs in each of the studs previous generations shows as PRA clear, that gives a decent amount of confidence the puppy should be OK?

I'm clinging on for dear life here, we are all way too excited (but im prepared to be the bad guy and wait if that's the best thing to do).

Thanks again for the help and advice.

Edit: Oops, missed a few replies there, so are we saying that whatever I can find out from the KC isn't actually worth looking for as it would still not be conclusive evidence?


----------



## Laura(L)Izzie (Sep 9, 2011)

I would say if all previous parents (meaning both mum & dad) aren't PRA clear then I wouldn't risk getting a pup as the other parents could have been a carrier which could still be passed down through the lines & could even end up where both these parents have the carrier gene which means pup could have it.

Not saying that will happen or be the case, but I just wouldn't risk it if they hadn't all been PRA tested before. I don't see why this breeder wouldn't at least test the sire though to make prospective owners minds be put at ease.


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

If the breeder knows her lineage it could be that the pup is hereditary clear or a carrier, however if this was the case then tests results should be available e.g copy of test/certificate of the dogs in the pups lineage.

To use the KC health finder data base that Sarah posted you will need to know the dogs KC name or number. It must be correct. Then any tests that the KC register on their database ( not all tests) will be shown.

Not all vets are clued up on breeding - they may know about conception and birth but not many will know about all the health tests for every breed going.

You can have a pup as a pet only that is a carrier of PRA for example and they will be very, very unlikely to get PRA, but any one with a dog that is a carrier would need to ensure if dog was ever bred, to be mated with a dog that was clear.


----------



## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

Hi TheCookieMonsters. I know how you must feel and you are right, I'm sure if you even set eyes on the little bundles you are going to fall madly in love! 

This may sound silly but if you really, really wanted one of these puppies, would the breeder offer a kind of contract to you where you would buy one of her puppies on the pretense that you would do the PRA test yourself (and pay all relevent costs for this) - for your own piece of mind and then if the pup did have the disease you could give the pup back with a full refund and begin your search elsewhere?

If you have no intention of ever breeding your pup, I think (and some may correct me if i'm wrong) but if the pup is a carrier of PRA that's ok because the dog will not ever develop PRA...

Just another option that could be considered if the breeder was on side? xx


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

Hi CockieMonster ..

Fab to hear you are considering a cockapoo puppy...

You have already been given some great advice by fellow cockapoo friends on here ...

Health testing is important and any size/type of cockapoo breeder should take this seriously prior to breeding a litter, however there are many other things to consider when buying a puppy .. 

There is a puppy buying guide on My Dogs Life which may help you on your search ...

Most of all find a breeder you personally like and trust, who loves and cares for their own dogs and puppies raised with upmost care 

Please keep us posted on any puppy news xxx


----------



## TheCookieMonsters (Jan 7, 2012)

Spoke to Janice at Jandaz today, our search is over! What a lovely lady, from initial experience completely deserves the plaudits on here, lovely lady and completely on the same obsessional wavelength. Hope to get a proper bundle of fluff sorted out in the near future 

Thanks all for the advice x


----------



## loobylou (Nov 20, 2011)

Im glad you have come to a decision, its so hard isnt it!
We are having our puppy from Janice as well, hope to post some piccies very soon!


----------



## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

Mathwith said:


> Times must be hard Janice when you resort to this much self-promotion. I hope I'm not the only one that can read your style and your intention.


I am never one to get involved in what I think frankly are very immature, uncalled for rants. But you have really riled me! Do you not have something better to do with your time than slate people you know nothing about? Don't join this forum and start attacking everyone who yes granted doesn't always see eye to eye! If you can not graciously ignore posts that annoy you and can't contribute by giving advice and positive feedback and tell us nothing about you e.g. pictures, background etc, I think you should just leave!! It's people like you that ruin this forum. If Cookiemonsters wants to buy a puppy from Jandaz then fantastic... it's not any of your business. If Cookiemonsters found Jandaz through this forum, in my opinion even more fantastic. I think it's great that Cookiemonsters has found a breeder she likes and is comfortable with on such a brilliant forum.


----------



## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

I agree Suzie, I believe he is being intentionally antagonistic and question his motives. Sill not convinced he is not a troll


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

What is going on lately .. all these threads seem to be heading down the same route ...


----------



## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

Mathwith said:


> Sorry if my comment was taken to be harsh but if you read a selection of forums you'll find this style of promotion happens daily you'll find that as new members cannot be checked or verified then the only way to prove who people are is through the meets and direct communication. This specific lady in question is known to self-promote and had been expelled from another forum for doing just this. If you read several threads yesterday you'll also see other members ask her not to carry on. I'm on the search for number 2 but would never make such a public jump for joy following a phone call I'd want to actuslly meet the breeder first !


I don't really care about the other forums where Jandaz may or may not have been expelled. I have always found Janice's posts useful as I have the other breeders on here. I have no loyalty with any breeder. I got lil Nacho from a hobby breeder (not on this forum) and couldn't be happier but I do admire most if not all the breeders on this forum for the way they love their animals and will do the best for them. If Cookiemonsters wants to get excited about the prospect of getting a new puppy then why the hell not?! I'm sure Cookiemonsters can make her own decisions and can imagine she doesn't need you to tell her when and why she should or shouldn't make a public jump for joy. I am very happy for you Cookiemonsters and I'm sorry this thread has gone this way. I won't contribute to this anymore. These replies are not usually my style and I hope we can follow your journey in choosing your pup and following the pups progress over the months/years.

Matt you say number 2... If you are not a TROLL then why can't you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your current cockapoo? Where are you from? Pictures? - Maybe that would have been a better way to start?! I wrote a cheerful message to you (I believe in this thread) yesterday asking to tell us a little bit more about yourself as I wanted to diffuse the current direction of the thread yet you ignored that one and continued to be antagonistic towards other members. How about you start a new thread and introduce yourself? As I have said before, we are a friendly bunch and this is normally a cheerful, frivolous yet informative site with great advice.... Let's keep it that way!


----------



## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

Matt I must apologise for the last paragraph of my last post (above). I have just caught up with all the threads and see you posted yesterday!


----------



## TheCookieMonsters (Jan 7, 2012)

Blimey. I wish I'd kept my virtual mouth shut.

If I need to explain, I am happy that I looked on here, followed recommendation and found someone who,we too get a good vibe from.

Yes, I still need to learn more about the Cockapoo breed and the Jandaz operation but felt happy that I'd seemingly moved from chalk to cheese in such a short space of time.

Please accept my excitement as just that and not anything else.

This has been a very weird introduction to this forum and would appreciate it if this thread stops now as it is heading seriously off topic.

Thank you and enjoy your dogs (hopefully I'll have one soon  )


----------



## greengrapes (Dec 21, 2011)

Mathwith said:


> Though a word of advice would be to visit the breeder before handing over any money.


I would agree wholeheartedly with this. I would not feel comfortable buying until I've see the conditions that the dogs are kept and are able to look the breeder in the eye when I'm asking the questions.

I've seen too many people, in all walks of life, who say all of the right things, but don't actually practice what they preach.


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

I think this thread is about finding a good breeder .. yes agree with greengrapes above go and visit .. have a good look around  ... a good breeder either large of hobby or one off will be so proud of what they do. 

Another bit of advice, like your breeder and trust they are always doing the best for their breeding dogs and of course any pups ....

You are looking for a quality breeder who simply loves the breed and .. plus is doing it well for the sake of your puppy


----------

