# I can't do raw.



## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

After months of indecision I had dinner with my vet friend last night and concluded that we can't go to a raw diet with Rufus.  My friend leans towards very natural and holistic types of treatment and I trust her implicitly. She is constantly upgrading her skills and knowledge. 

Basically her take on it is that while raw is healthy, and balance can be achieved with some effort, anyone who works with, lives with or is in regular contact with people with compromised immune systems (of which I know plenty, many who have no judgement at all over what they ingest) is simply taking too much of a risk of exposing listeria, toxoplasmosa, salmonella and a whole litany of other parasites to people. 

I am strangely relieved to know that as much as I want the very best for Rufus, in this case his needs are outweighed by the safety of the people I love.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

So don't you eat meat yourself then Christine? Because as long as it's refrigerated correctly and the utensils washed properly etc. I don't understand the problem, or even the difference. All those bugs are in our food anyway and if handled or prepared incorrectly you can expect trouble.


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## Jerseygirl (Jul 14, 2010)

To each their own Cat, I don't think Christine eats RAW meat!! Lol 
I have small kids at home who are immune compromised too!
I tried raw years ago, the dogs would want to eat their food all over the house! I tried outside feeding, but we live where it gets to -40 6 months of the year! All in all it didn't work out for us. Jersey does better on a balanced diet, yet still high protein, no grains. ( She also lost two teeth to chewing on raw bones, yikes!)
I believe it works for some breeds, those closer to the wolf for example, I have a lot of friends who feed raw and I don't knock it. But my personal opinion: I live where we have lots of wild wolves and coyotes roaming. And I can tell you they don't eat chickens or cows or pigs, but rabbit, duck, deer and bison, they eat bugs and grass/weeds, some berries especially wild blueberry as well as fish, but only the heads of the fish because of parasites. In the wild they know these things, not domesticated animals. Dogs can still get ecoli and listeria! Just my opinion ok!!! 
There's good evidence on both sides, so it's about personal preference and what the dog likes of course! I think taking a well considered and researched opinion is great, which ever way you go!


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Shona and Christine, was not knocking your decision at all. Merely questioning the bacteria thing. I have fed wet, kibble and now raw. As you say Shona, each to their own. My dogs eat their food out of bowls in the utility. Their chicken wings in the utility or kitchen. Both floors are mopped with bleach afterwards. They certainly are not allowed to consume any meals 'all over the house' no matter what they are fed. My point was. IF you prepare raw foodstuffs, whether human or canine, or feline for that matter, then those bacteria are present. That's why you never have raw meat and cooked meat on the same shelf of the refrigerator. its why you wash lettuce etc. You have to be careful not to cross contaminate as well as to wash preparation areas down properly etc. Whatever your immune system if you buy and prepare meat you are exposed to those bacteria.


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## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

Fairlie I agree with you and am going with a holistic diet for my girl.
Cat even though you are washing the floor after they eat, I would be concerned
with picking up something from their fur when you pet them.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

My point was not about raw feeding per se, which I think is better for the dog, but about MY specific situation. Do I eat sushi and steak tartar and homemade caesar dressing? Yes. Do I feed it to my 83 year old mum and little client with spina bifida? No. Rufus gives wet open mouth kisses to my profoundly autistic client who can probably handle it. But my little developmentally delayed client with severe kidney issues loves to mouth everything he finds. I am fastidious with cleanlieness in the kitchen but risking raw meat on the floor and garden is just not a reasonable thing for us to consider. My parents had friends who had a son born with brain damage because she ate undercooked caribou meat while pregnant. It is all a matter of risk assessment and I know for most of you the risk is minimal . If that was the case for me I'd go for it.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ah thanks Christine, NOW, I understand.


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## Stela12 (Mar 1, 2012)

fairlie said:


> After months of indecision I had dinner with my vet friend last night and concluded that we can't go to a raw diet with Rufus.  My friend leans towards very natural and holistic types of treatment and I trust her implicitly. She is constantly upgrading her skills and knowledge.
> 
> Basically her take on it is that while raw is healthy, and balance can be achieved with some effort, anyone who works with, lives with or is in regular contact with people with compromised immune systems (of which I know plenty, many who have no judgement at all over what they ingest) is simply taking too much of a risk of exposing listeria, toxoplasmosa, salmonella and a whole litany of other parasites to people.
> 
> I am strangely relieved to know that as much as I want the very best for Rufus, in this case his needs are outweighed by the safety of the people I love.


Thank you...this just helped me solidify my decision.


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

I totally understand. If the brand I feed them didn't use a process to kill of bacteria and parasites (they use it for packaged meets, vegetables, etc. too), I wouldn't do raw either. I also haven't been able to step into giving them raw foods like bones, chicken wings, and the like. I'm not immunocompromised but working in a hospital makes you realize how powerful these bugs can be. So again, totally understand. The fact that Beemer was scoffing at kibble on the bowl and that the sound of it was bothering him, I wouldn't have taken this step. 


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I have only one thing to say here.. 

Fairlie is not called Christine


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Thank you for pointing that out Ruth, though I will usually answer to anything.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I found that funny!


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

I agree it's each to his own. I have no problem at all with mine eating raw. I am very careful about cleanliness and my dogs eat their raw chicken wings outside. I am also very careful how I store all raw meat whether it's to be cooked for us or given raw to the dogs.


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## dio.ren (Jan 18, 2013)

RuthMill said:


> I have only one thing to say here..
> 
> Fairlie is not called Christine





fairlie said:


> Thank you for pointing that out Ruth, though I will usually answer to anything.





RuthMill said:


> I found that funny!


Ha! I laughed when I saw Christine's name maybe someone got confused I was going to say something but then thought maybe not


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## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

dio.ren said:


> Ha! I laughed when I saw Christine's name maybe someone got confused I was going to say something but then thought maybe not



I thought it was referencing someone else. I couldn't keep track so I just figured I was confused. 


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## dio.ren (Jan 18, 2013)

Lexi&Beemer said:


> I thought it was referencing someone else. I couldn't keep track so I just figured I was confused.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Maybe you were right and I was confused?? Who knows


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Hangs head in shame.....sorry


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Cat 53 said:


> Hangs head in shame.....sorry


No don't be sorry, it was so funny! Lightened things up for me


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## Stela12 (Mar 1, 2012)

fairlie said:


> After months of indecision I had dinner with my vet friend last night and concluded that we can't go to a raw diet with Rufus.  My friend leans towards very natural and holistic types of treatment and I trust her implicitly. She is constantly upgrading her skills and knowledge.
> 
> Basically her take on it is that while raw is healthy, and balance can be achieved with some effort, anyone who works with, lives with or is in regular contact with people with compromised immune systems (of which I know plenty, many who have no judgement at all over what they ingest) is simply taking too much of a risk of exposing listeria, toxoplasmosa, salmonella and a whole litany of other parasites to people.
> 
> I am strangely relieved to know that as much as I want the very best for Rufus, in this case his needs are outweighed by the safety of the people I love.


I am curious as what in your friend's opinion is the second best in terms of dog food?


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## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

Raw, dried, home cooked! My personal opinion is we worry a little too much. Quite rightly so as a dogs are important parts of our lives and I believe that as long as the diet is good quality and balanced and most of all the dog enjoys it and his healthy does it really matter whether it's raw or not! I admire the commitment of people feeding raw but I personally don't like the idea of jasper going to kiss his beloved humans after eating raw chicken 😳. Even if his face has been washed. That is my choice though! I do also wonder why most vets don't recommend raw, why is this??


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## dio.ren (Jan 18, 2013)

JasperBlack said:


> Raw, dried, home cooked! My personal opinion is we worry a little too much. Quite rightly so as a dogs are important parts of our lives and I believe that as long as the diet is good quality and balanced and most of all the dog enjoys it and his healthy does it really matter whether it's raw or not! I admire the commitment of people feeding raw but I personally don't like the idea of jasper going to kiss his beloved humans after eating raw chicken 😳. Even if his face has been washed. That is my choice though! I do also wonder why most vets don't recommend raw, why is this??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


3 vets told us to not feed Molly raw food. One vet mentioned that since raw has been around that dogs have more medical issues and mentioned lots of kidney problems. She said it's like a fad and compared it to people doing the Atkins diet. I know lots of people feed raw and we were thinking about it but went with home made food. Molly was never a big fan of dry kibble but this stuff she loves! When she was on dry food she would eat one day then not the other now she eats her two meals right away so I'm thinking that it's healthier for her.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I told my vet friend I suspected vets don't like raw because it cuts in to their earnings from clinic sold dog food, she didn't think that was the case. She has three issues with it. One, it takes some effort to get it balanced right. Some people can do that others can't, it is hard to do over the long haul. Two, dogs have gastro systems that have evolved a lot from their wolf days. Same as with humans, we could, in theory, start to eat rancid, raw whale blubber again but it would be a big adjustment. Three, wild animals know what to eat and what not to eat, dogs have lost this talent. If a few wolves perish from parasites it's sad, but if even one beloved pet does it's worse.

I'll ask next time I see her what food she suggests to her clients. In the meantime I think we should all be respectful of the people who feed raw because it takes an additional commitment of not only money but also time, effort and hygiene. That all comes from love for their dogs. I am certain they'll respect the decisions made by those of us who can't or won't do it too, because we love our dogs too.


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## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

I agree, it is a massive commitment feeding raw and I considered it for a time too. Interesting thought that the fact dogs are so domesticated now they have lost the instincts they once had in the wild.
Renee - I used to do home cook/ kibble for jasper and he did love it but he is now content with his kibble so I just stick with that for now. I used to cook and freeze batches like baby food so it was easy to prepare. 
Glad this suits Molly and you've found something that suits.
All dogs are different and what suits one doesn't necessarily suit another. 

Jasper was on fish for dogs but I found the hi oil content caused sickness, he's now on Lily's kitchen which he loves. He is healthy and happy so I'm happy too 


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

I wondered what was in Fish 4 Dogs. Max hated it and it didn't like him much either. Got him off that very quickly. 

We are thinking about going to live in South Africa - Cape Town to be exact and after investigating on the net, have found a raw food supplier out there. Really delighted as I think the green tripe is the best ever food to feed them.


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## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Cat 53 said:


> I wondered what was in Fish 4 Dogs. Max hated it and it didn't like him much either. Got him off that very quickly.
> 
> We are thinking about going to live in South Africa - Cape Town to be exact and after investigating on the net, have found a raw food supplier out there. Really delighted as I think the green tripe is the best ever food to feed them.


Oooooo big move up ahead possibly?? Exciting times.
I love how you check out the dog food they have there first!


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

Tinman said:


> Oooooo big move up ahead possibly?? Exciting times.
> I love how you check out the dog food they have there first!


Ha, me too. Have to check it's right for all the family after all!


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## Stela12 (Mar 1, 2012)

JasperBlack said:


> Raw, dried, home cooked! My personal opinion is we worry a little too much. Quite rightly so as a dogs are important parts of our lives and I believe that as long as the diet is good quality and balanced and most of all the dog enjoys it and his healthy does it really matter whether it's raw or not! I admire the commitment of people feeding raw but I personally don't like the idea of jasper going to kiss his beloved humans after eating raw chicken 😳. Even if his face has been washed. That is my choice though! I do also wonder why most vets don't recommend raw, why is this??
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I completely agree with you - well said! We do worry too much. I come from a country(not USA) where dogs still eat table scraps , an occasional bone and live and survive just fine. 

Thank you Fairlie for sharing your friend's opinion on this.

I think raw feeding is ideal but it is not for everyone. Great point about the evolution of the GI tracts! Never thought of that!


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Vets don't know a lot about nutrition. Like GP's they are not specialists. A lot of vet surgeries get a lot of money from the sale of food which also contributes to their dedication to promoting it. Science diet - the ingredients are dreadful. 

I think many don't recommend raw as they don't know enough about it. As for the vets saying that since raw has become more popular, there are more medical problems - I would love to see the evidence of this. I suspect the increase in medical problems is due to the increase in low quality food, and the increase in humans eating junk (and feeding it to their dogs).

Dogs have been eating raw for years (and in the wild). Before tins of dog food, the dog food used to come in the form of scraps from the local butcher - this was fed raw - tripe, bones, scraps of meat and offal. So I believe it is the processed food that causes all the problems.

Now I don't feed raw, but I am definitely considering it. My reasons at the minute for not making the change is my own selfish and practical reasons as the girls both go to daycare and it would be difficult enough to coordinate this. They are on BH grain free and don't eat any wheat or grain products whatsoever (mainly because I don't like to eat grains).

I should add though that I think it's important to respect everyone's decisions on feeding (as long as they are not feeding pedigree chum ). Your friend sounds like she also knows what she is talking about Fairlie. We need more canine nutritionists and hard researched facts.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

I was talking to the breeder who supplies my tripe. She feeds her dogs and her puppies tripe and whole wheat biscuits (doesn't trust the feeding of raw chicken wings) but she was saying that if a dog has bladder problems she always recommends switching from kibble to wet at the very least. I know kibble is dehydrated but I think it must be very salty too for the amount of water required by the dogs. Think I've gone really anti kibble! . It's only virtue is the ease of use! Oh dear! I'm like a smoker whose given up!


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

I agree with you Ruth. I have a lot of faith in my vets practice on the medical side but not one of them know much about raw feeling. At the kennels my dogs go to the people who run it know all about raw feeding and have installed freezers for all the food. They all feed raw to their own dogs and most of their customers do too. Even my local small pet shop has bought a freezer so he can store natural instinct and raw meaty bones. 
I can completely understand it's not for everyone though.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

Cat on the occasion that mine have had kibble I can't believe how much water they need throughout the day.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Cat 53 said:


> I was talking to the breeder who supplies my tripe. She feeds her dogs and her puppies tripe and whole wheat biscuits (doesn't trust the feeding of raw chicken wings) but she was saying that if a dog has bladder problems she always recommends switching from kibble to wet at the very least. I know kibble is dehydrated but I think it must be very salty too for the amount of water required by the dogs. Think I've gone really anti kibble! . It's only virtue is the ease of use! Oh dear! I'm like a smoker whose given up!


There's no salt in Barking Heads. I think the issue is that because there is no water content, then the dogs aren't getting moisture from food and so they have to get it from actually drinking in water. Some dogs aren't natural drinkers and may end up dehydrated/not drinking enough, not due to salt but due to the only moisture intake is actually drinking water enough to sufficiently hydrate. My two are good drinkers and I know this because they pee every 3-4 hours, which is healthy. If they ever stopped drinking or didn't drink enough to pee often then I would definitely switch away from dry.


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm not saying they add salt, it's just that when food is dehydrated the natural salt is intensified.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Cat 53 said:


> I'm not saying they add salt, it's just that when food is dehydrated the natural salt is intensified.


Ok I take your point. 

That's why need to rely on them physically drinking the water separately. 

I think dry foods are probably more to blame for renal issues than raw.


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## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

This food malarky is so confusing! Now I'm thinking about salt 😧


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

I think it's just the dryness of the kibble. Imagine if you ate a meals worth of rich tea biscuits. You'd need a good drink to wash it down with because it's very dry


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

JasperBlack said:


> This food malarky is so confusing! Now I'm thinking about salt 😧
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


There is not more salt - just less water! As long as they drink water there is not a problem. If your kibble is good quality and not full of rubbish there is nothing to be concerned about. They are smart animals, they know when to drink! Don't be worried...


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Cat 53 said:


> I'm not saying they add salt, it's just that when food is dehydrated the natural salt is intensified.


It's still the same amount of natural salt - no more, no less. 

They just drink to compensate for the lack of moisture within the food.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

RuthMill said:


> Ok I take your point.
> 
> That's why need to rely on them physically drinking the water separately.
> 
> I think dry foods are probably more to blame for renal issues than raw.


By this I meant, poor quality dry. Not good quality kibble!


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## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

Jasper doesn't drink excessively so it can't be too salty - but always has fresh water available. He's fed quality food, but will certainly check!


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Oh No! Those that feed kibble.....it's fine. The views I am expressing are mine. I was basing what I said on my cooking ( this is going to sound great.....NOT) but, when I have over cooked a casserole ( so it's nearly dried up) then the contents go really salty. Same with Bolognase. To my mind dehydrated soups are quite salty too. This is NOT scientific fact, just my observations. And there is no reason why you can't add liquid to kibble anyway. That would ensure your dogs are hydrated.


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Cat 53 said:


> Oh No! Those that feed kibble.....it's fine. The views I am expressing are mine. I was basing what I said on my cooking ( this is going to sound great.....NOT) but, when I have over cooked a casserole ( so it's nearly dried up) then the contents go really salty. Same with Bolognase. To my mind dehydrated soups are quite salty too. This is NOT scientific fact, just my observations. And there is no reason why you can't add liquid to kibble anyway. That would ensure your dogs are hydrated.


Must admit I usually add warm water now when I occasionally feed kibble, just throw in a few dry ones just before putting it down to add a little crunch! this was after reading about the digestion times, it speeds it up considerably when water added. With the raw I must admit I am easily influenced by what I read and hear, I think those that feed raw are usually quite evangelical about it, my grooming tutor who also has kennels feeds her dogs raw meaty bones, a friend of mine did quite an in depth dog nutrition course had said to me she was surprised I didn't feed raw (before I did) and even my vet, although saying she wasn't so keen admitted that one of the other vets was very pro raw feeding and did talks on it, so all these persuaded me to change - Dudley LOVES it, however - unlike all the stories I've also read about miraculous changes, it has made no difference in any other aspect, his coat is the same, his anxiety levels at home are the same (still barks at EVERY outside noise) and he still chews his feet a bit (habit I think), I imagine the good quality kibble is fine - although having said that there are some nutritionists who say no kibble is good no matter how good a quality because of the processes it has to go through.......I think I probably worry more about dog food than what I feed my child!! now the booster jabs are due and I'm debating what to do about those........


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## Cat 53 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well mine got a tin of tuna today as I forgot to get their Tripe out of the Freezer. They enjoyed it, they are fed, and a change is as good as a rest. My very experienced vet (Judy) was very encouraging when I said I fed raw. She turned to the veterinary nurse, who almost gasped in horror, and said 'it's very good for them, very natural and they have wonderful skin, coats, teeth and eyes'. A great endorsement I think. 

I guess I like it cos it's natural and I am leaning more and more towards natural these days, not just for the dogs but for our health too!


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## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

I checked no added salt - phew! Didn't think so but worth checking 😊 oh we do get our knickers in a twist about such things, lol! This is always such a hot topic - I wonder what our dogs actually think 😋


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

There will be no added salt. The dogs drink more because the food is dehydrated, so when it hits the stomach it starts to soak up fluid from the body and softens and swells up. Try soaking a cup of kibble in warm water for an hour.....you will be surprised in how much it swells. So the dog needs to replace the water taken by the food so they drink more than on wet food. 
Fish4dogs will be saltier due to the natural saltiness of the sea fish used in making it. I personally wouldn't feed that brand because of it. A good quality kibble is a good way to feed your dog, as is a balanced raw diet or good quality wet food. If you are worried about you dog not getting enough fluid just put a little warm water on the food when you feed, it releases the flavours and ensures some water gets taken on board.


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