# Sticky  The importance of DNA tests when choosing a puppy!



## ElaineR

Hi I would highly recommend that whatever breeder you use has proof of eye testing. Our gorgeous 
cockapoo has PRA and started going blind about 4.. He is now 7 and has been completely blind for almost 2 years, with very poor sight in between!! He is fantastic, copes really well and we love him to bits but wouldn't want anyone unexpectedly going through the same heartacheX I would have another cockapoo tomorrow.. The most loving and loyal companion... A constant teddy bear hug X


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## wellerfeller

ElaineR said:


> Hi I would highly recommend that whatever breeder you use has proof of eye testing. Our gorgeous
> cockapoo has PRA and started going blind about 4.. He is now 7 and has been completely blind for almost 2 years, with very poor sight in between!! He is fantastic, copes really well and we love him to bits but wouldn't want anyone unexpectedly going through the same heartacheX I would have another cockapoo tomorrow.. The most loving and loyal companion... A constant teddy bear hug X


Sorry to hear that your dog is suffering from PRA, he sounds lovely and it's nice he is coping. Such a shame he had to suffer this though when a simple blood test can prevent pups being born with this disease.


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## ElaineR

wellerfeller said:


> Sorry to hear that your dog is suffering from PRA, he sounds lovely and it's nice he is coping. Such a shame he had to suffer this though when a simple blood test can prevent pups being born with this disease.


Yes, he truly is amazing but I do get sad when hear that the breeder is still producing lots of pups and does not test. How many more little pups and loving families are going to go through the pain of watching much loved pet go blind? As you say it is a simple blood test.. And any responsible breeder would do them X Elaine


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## wellerfeller

That is so sad to hear and maddening too!! So many more poor puppies and families. 

Have you gone back and informed the breeder of your dogs condition?

If you don't mind I may start a thread off with your comments about your dog as so many people decide to go ahead and buy puppies even when they know tests aren't what they seem, I guess thinking it'll never happen to their dog, it will help highlight the seriousness of PRA and that it can and will affect dogs.


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## tessybear

I agree, the more it is publicized the more potential owners will be checking with the breeders. Sorry to hear about your dog, 4 is so young to lose his sight.


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## DB1

Sorry to hear about your dog but how lovely that he is having a great life with you. It is terrible that breeders are breeding without these tests - how hard can they be to get done.


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## JoJo

Elaine, firstly thank you for sharing your experience with us all and secondly I am so sorry you have had to go through this with your dog ... 

When I first started researching cockapoos it saden me how many breeders did not take DNA testing seriously and I hate to think of the other stories out there where dogs have suffered and gone or will go blind due to PRA. 

I am in the camp where I think both parents should be DNA tested for PRA as breeders should know exactly what they are breeding and the outcome of their litter can then be predicted ... but it must be DNA testing.

Sending you and your cockapoo a massive hug ... it is lovely to know he has such a wonderful life with you


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## JoJo

DB1 said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog but how lovely that he is having a great life with you. It is terrible that breeders are breeding without these tests - how hard can they be to get done.


Simple answer Dawn .. the test are easy to carry out and should be carried out. I am a huge fan of DNA testing as it gives you firm result which stays with that dog for life, it is a result that can not change and gives you a Clear, Carrier or Affected result for that breeding dog.


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## mandym

I look after a cockpoo from the same breeder as elaines cockapoo,also blind with pra.The breeder was informed by her family too and is now telling new owners he doesnt eye test because he has never had any problems,its infuriating ( see post under cockapoo talk,looking for a breeder in scotland).The post about this seems to have become lost n the many posts since buts its of the utmost importance its highlighted. xxx


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## JoJo

mandym said:


> I look after a cockpoo from the same breeder as elaines cockapoo,also blind with pra.The breeder was informed by her family too and is now telling new owners he doesnt eye test because he has never had any problems,its infuriating ( see post under cockapoo talk,looking for a breeder in scotland).The post about this seems to have become lost n the many posts since buts its of the utmost importance its highlighted. xxx


That is so sad to read and a real worry too ..


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## wellerfeller

mandym said:


> I look after a cockpoo from the same breeder as elaines cockapoo,also blind with pra.The breeder was informed by her family too and is now telling new owners he doesnt eye test because he has never had any problems,its infuriating ( see post under cockapoo talk,looking for a breeder in scotland).The post about this seems to have become lost n the many posts since buts its of the utmost importance its highlighted. xxx



In all honesty Mandy that is just disgusting! So he thinks as his dogs aren't going blind then there is no problem, well he obviously has the two carriers and is passing the disease on to a fair amount of the puppies he is producing  I would have no qualms about putting potential owners off!


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## ElaineR

I'm so glad that this has been highlighted!!!! As much as I'm used to my boy being blind, Every walk we go on you have to be constantly 'risk assessing' I took my eyes off him for a split second just today and he was almost into some fencing... I'm sure if he was bald he'd have quite a few wee bruises on his body... The families who are considering buying puppies from breeders who are not testing need to be prepared for some heartache along the way! Bobby was only diagnosed a few years ago but probably had poor sight long before that and just 'coped'... Apparently some dogs can go blind within their first year, so I guess we were lucky Bobby had quite a few years as a seeing dog... Please please please think long and hard before you select your breeder... Research as much as possible.. If they are reputable they will be more than happy to answer all your questions!!!!!! They should be expecting you to ask questions just as they should be ensuring their puppies are going to loving forever homes!!!! My breeder was informed about the PRA.. And carried on breeding without testing being done!!! If we carry on buying from these people.... They will continue to breed affected pups... The breeder gets our money... We get a lot of heartache, always looking out for the signs.....


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## DB1

It seems like something like this should be reported to the RSPCA, but I guess sadly if they aren't able to stop the terrible puppy farms that this would not seem like a high priority.


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## TraceyT33

As far as I am concerned this breeder needs to be reported. This is terrible and I am truly upset and angry. Cannot say much more in fear that I will be ranting forever....


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## dmgalley

I am so glad I went with a breeder who does testing this time. I didn't know better with Jake. Is there a way I can find out of he has this? 

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## ElaineR

dmgalley said:


> I am so glad I went with a breeder who does testing this time. I didn't know better with Jake. Is there a way I can find out of he has this?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


Hi Donna, I was the same with Bobby, totally naive. When we were having him tested we first went to our regular vet, who then referred us to a specialist as he was already displaying signs of PRA. Eye colour change... They went a kind of shiny green.. Almost marble like...especially noticeable in strong sunlight.. If you google PRA it explains this fully.. He didn't even need the blood test as they knew just by examining the eyes.. I'm sure your vet will do the test and send them away. Dont know how much it costs, but for peace of mind it'd be worth it X


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## dmgalley

and there is nothing that can be done? I am sorry that happened to your baby. 

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## ElaineR

dmgalley said:


> and there is nothing that can be done? I am sorry that happened to your baby.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


Donna PRA is completely irreversible, and when checked we were told he would probably be completely blind within a few months as it was already quite advanced..I can't tell you how much research we did, we would have paid anything!!! It was probably about 6 months after that, it's actually quite hard to tell cos they are so amazing at adjusting that you think they can still see!!!!! I just can't emphasise enough about choosing a breeder that tests.


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## DB1

Elaine, Thank you again for hi-lighting the importance of testing, I think in the past so many people have thought 'oh I'm sure it won't happen, loads of people buy untested pups and they are fine...' but it DOES happen as you have sadly found out, it is a shame that so many people don't even know about testing before they get a puppy, at least anyone who stumbles across this forum before choosing a puppy should know, as it is usually the first piece of advice on any thread about getting a puppy. good luck with your lovely boy, I hope he continues to cope well.


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## MillieDog

What an informative thread and yet so sad. I would be interested to know if the potential puppy owners actually go ahead with getting their chosen puppy from this awful breeder. Has anyone tried reporting him to the RSPCA?


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## ElaineR

MillieDog said:


> What an informative thread and yet so sad. I would be interested to know if the potential puppy owners actually go ahead with getting their chosen puppy from this awful breeder. Has anyone tried reporting him to the RSPCA?


Hi Julie, yes people have gone ahead and gotten puppies from the breeder, and if you refer to another thread in 'chat' 'looking for breeder in north east Scotland'.. you can see that one is particularly upset about her chosen breeder been named! It appears the breeder has now chosen to test due to being informed that he has been mentioned on his forum.. I can only see this a a good thing, it's a shame that people have gotten upset by this topic, however, I stand by what's been said. I wish this forum had been available when I'd been looking for my 'fur baby'... Who at present resembles a drowned rat as we have just come home from a very wet soggy walk lol!!!


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## mandym

I think the breeder will only have improved the situation if he has dna tested perhaps all the boys so at least one parent per mating is dna tested but i doubt he has because there hasnt been enough time for him to do that.If only one parent has been bva tested then its a waste of time and means nothing,even if both are just bva tested they can still produce affected pups if both are carriers( this does not show up in a bva test) so its back to the importance of dna tests and how important they are xxx


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## ElaineR

mandym said:


> I think the breeder will only have improved the situation if he has dna tested perhaps all the boys so at least one parent per mating is dna tested but i doubt he has because there hasnt been enough time for him to do that.If only one parent has been bva tested then its a waste of time and means nothing,even if both are just bva tested they can still produce affected pups if both are carriers( this does not show up in a bva test) so its back to the importance of dna tests and how important they are xxx


Well if that's the case Mandy and he is not testing properly, at least these new owners have the required information about the importance of DNA testing, and the possible outcome of buying a puppy NOT tested, sad as that is. And hopefully people will take note the importance of buying a puppy from a reputable breeder and that it doesn't always pay to go with the cheaper option :/


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## mandym

ElaineR said:


> Well if that's the case Mandy and he is not testing properly, at least these new owners have the required information about the importance of DNA testing, and the possible outcome of buying a puppy NOT tested, sad as that is. And hopefully people will take note the importance of buying a puppy from a reputable breeder and that it doesn't always pay to go with the cheaper option :/



The people who buy puppies from places like this do not care about the welfare of future puppies or the parents but hopefully some decent people plnning on buying a cockapoo puppy will read this a and think twice and if thats the case then we havent wasted our time highlighting it xxxx


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## MillieDog

ElaineR said:


> Hi Julie, yes people have gone ahead and gotten puppies from the breeder, and if you refer to another thread in 'chat' 'looking for breeder in north east Scotland'.. you can see that one is particularly upset about her chosen breeder been named! It appears the breeder has now chosen to test due to being informed that he has been mentioned on his forum.. I can only see this a a good thing, it's a shame that people have gotten upset by this topic, however, I stand by what's been said. I wish this forum had been available when I'd been looking for my 'fur baby'... Who at present resembles a drowned rat as we have just come home from a very wet soggy walk lol!!!


Yes I've been following the other thread you mention. Personally I wouldn't trust the fella. You can't make a test negative, when all that has gone on before shows positive. Alas, you and and few other owners have the proof to show for it.


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## Suecoo66

This is one of the reasons why I chose a Cockapoo Club GB approved breeder


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## mandym

Suecoo66 said:


> This is one of the reasons why I chose a Cockapoo Club GB approved breeder


Why would choosing a breeder from there mean youre safe,one recently got struck off cos they were breeding from affected dogs.i dont mean to sound harsh but the best way to make sure you get a puppy from eye tested is parents is to check out the paper work yourself,hunt around and make sure pups are seen with mum.xxx


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## ElaineR

Suecoo66 said:


> This is one of the reasons why I chose a Cockapoo Club GB approved breeder


I wouldn't go to ANY breeder regardless of which 'club' they belonged to unless they could show me paperwork that DNA testing has been done!! That is the only way I could be reassured that my pup would be healthŷ of any possible eye conditions!!!!


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## Turi

mandym said:


> Why would choosing a breeder from there mean youre safe,one recently got struck off cos they were breeding from affected dogs.


Mandy it’s a shame that you didn’t get your facts straight before responding to this. 

To become a CCGB Approved Breeder, there is a mandatory minimum health test requirement that one parent is prcd-PRA DNA tested ‘normal/clear’. 

A few weeks ago a breeder called Tinyshires had their CCGB Approved Breeder status removed because following testing after the matings they discovered that they had inadvertently paired two prcd-PRA carriers together, which statistically could have resulted in 25% of the puppies being affected. However, that in itself was not the reason for their removal - the Committee suggested that they DNA test all of the puppies to identify if any were affected and not to sell those puppies. Tinyshires contravened the CCGB Code of Ethics by trying to disguise those puppies in question within another litter of a mother who had tested DNA clear of prcd-PRA. 

The CCGB Committee Members exposed the situation before the puppies were 8 weeks old and before they left for their new homes. The reason that Tinyshires were investigated in the first place was because the CCGB Committee Members had received feedback via the forum from several concerned buyers – the Committee acted as quickly as possible to find a solution to a unfortunate and dishonest act. 

The fact that an Approved Breeder has their accredited status revoked is testimony of the stance of the CCGB and demonstrates that the accreditation has meaning . 

Following this experience the Club Officers are currently working on a new webpage titled 'What to expect from a CCGB Approved Breeder' which will also have direct feedback forms so that the buying public can easily offer us both positive and negative feedback on their personal experience with any of our Approved Breeders. 

Mandy, do you have a way to assess the history of your breeding stock? If yes, why don’t you share it & perhaps prospective owners can learn from that. 

ElaineR I am really very sorry that you have discovered your dog is PRA-affected and I wish you all the best.


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## mandym

Turi said:


> Mandy it’s a shame that you didn’t get your facts straight before responding to this.
> 
> To become a CCGB Approved Breeder, there is a mandatory minimum health test requirement that one parent is prcd-PRA DNA tested ‘normal/clear’.
> 
> A few weeks ago a breeder called Tinyshires had their CCGB Approved Breeder status removed because following testing after the matings they discovered that they had inadvertently paired two prcd-PRA carriers together, which statistically could have resulted in 25% of the puppies being affected. However, that in itself was not the reason for their removal - the Committee suggested that they DNA test all of the puppies to identify if any were affected and not to sell those puppies. Tinyshires contravened the CCGB Code of Ethics by trying to disguise those puppies in question within another litter of a mother who had tested DNA clear of prcd-PRA.
> 
> The CCGB Committee Members exposed the situation before the puppies were 8 weeks old and before they left for their new homes. The reason that Tinyshires were investigated in the first place was because the CCGB Committee Members had received feedback via the forum from several concerned buyers – the Committee acted as quickly as possible to find a solution to a unfortunate and dishonest act.
> 
> The fact that an Approved Breeder has their accredited status revoked is testimony of the stance of the CCGB and demonstrates that the accreditation has meaning .
> 
> Following this experience the Club Officers are currently working on a new webpage titled 'What to expect from a CCGB Approved Breeder' which will also have direct feedback forms so that the buying public can easily offer us both positive and negative feedback on their personal experience with any of our Approved Breeders.
> 
> Mandy, do you have a way to assess the history of your breeding stock? If yes, why don’t you share it & perhaps prospective owners can learn from that.
> 
> ElaineR I am really very sorry that you have discovered your dog is PRA-affected and I wish you all the best.


I dont think mentioneing or advertising other clubs is allowed on her x


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## lady amanda

Please everyone, this is a reminder to remain respectful. this thread is being watched and will be closed if this continues.


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## Indiechick

Hi hope someone can help as I'm panicking now. I bough my pup off tinyshires in April. How would I know if she was affected and how would I know. Please help.


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## wellerfeller

Indiechick said:


> Hi hope someone can help as I'm panicking now. I bough my pup off tinyshires in April. How would I know if she was affected and how would I know. Please help.


I would talk to your vet, explain your concerns and they will advise you. You can get a DNA test as this will tell you the pups PRA status.


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## Indiechick

wellerfeller said:


> I would talk to your vet, explain your concerns and they will advise you. You can get a DNA test as this will tell you the pups PRA status.


I have spoke to the breeder who informs me that the mum is aa clear. Would she have any signs of being affected at 6 months. My vet says this is a specialised test and does not do it.


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## wellerfeller

It's confusing as aa can mean clear or affected, depending on the use of capital letters!! What you need to see or have proof of is the DNA certificate from either Optigen lab or Labakolin, the breeder will have this if they carried out testing.
I will put links up for you.
All your vet needs to do is take a blood sample and send it off to either of these labs. You will have to pay the vet a fee for this and also pay the lab for the test. All price info is on the websites. 


http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/showGeneticTest.jsp?testID=8094

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcd_pra.html


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## Indiechick

*Update*

Hi just an update on indie. We have had her bloods sent to the lab to check for PRA and just awaiting results. We have telephoned Tinyshires twice with regards as to wether she could be affected and they will not confirm this. I have had the phone slammed down on me and told that her dogs were nothing to do with me despite them selling me a pup that may potentially go blind. There are now 7 potential PRA affected pups out there that have been sold to unsuspecting buyers and I think these people should have a right to know. We bought our pup on the understanding she was AA clear as the advert stated. It has been a sham and nothing but lies. We do not know if the cocker spaniel shown was really Indie's mother as she has been showing different cocker spaniels as the mother when people had visited pups. Needless to say we are now going down the legal route. These people should not be allowed to do this and I think it should be broadcast so that people who have bought a puppy off them know what they are up against. Not a nice situation to be in.


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## wellerfeller

Indiechick said:


> Hi just an update on indie. We have had her bloods sent to the lab to check for PRA and just awaiting results. We have telephoned Tinyshires twice with regards as to wether she could be affected and they will not confirm this. I have had the phone slammed down on me and told that her dogs were nothing to do with me despite them selling me a pup that may potentially go blind. There are now 7 potential PRA affected pups out there that have been sold to unsuspecting buyers and I think these people should have a right to know. We bought our pup on the understanding she was AA clear as the advert stated. It has been a sham and nothing but lies. We do not know if the cocker spaniel shown was really Indie's mother as she has been showing different cocker spaniels as the mother when people had visited pups. Needless to say we are now going down the legal route. These people should not be allowed to do this and I think it should be broadcast so that people who have bought a puppy off them know what they are up against. Not a nice situation to be in.



Wow what an awful situation. I feel so sorry for you. Fingers crossed the blood results come back with good news!
I would also recommend informing the breeders local trading standards office.


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## Suecoo66

I'd be interested to know how you get on with the legal route as my experience of complaining it authorities such as KC, Trading Standards and RSPCA etc was that they're weren't at all interested or helpful. 
This was with my cavapoo/ Cavoodle not my current cockapoo, I learnt from bad experience and did more research and checks etc. 
I've heard [email protected] have DNA tests but not sure what for.


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## alijay1970

I would like to share with you an upsetting situation I was in 4 months ago when i purchased a puppy. The breeder was recommended to me by an approved breeder who was a member of a recognised club. (Why she would put her reputation at risk is beyond me). Anyway the breeder I bought the puppy from said that the Mum and Dad were both DNA clear of PRA. Stupidly I did not ask to see the paperwork at the first visit as I had put my trust in the person that had recommended her to me. The long and short of it was the breeder could not provide evidence of the blood tests and only a visual examination certificate for the stud. I had already taken the puppy home when I saw this in the paperwork. The whole situation got very upsetting and I felt misled by both parties concerned. In the end I paid for a blood test myself which was thankfully clear and the breeder reimbursed me eventually. I also had paid top price for the pup which I was happy to do so as I was led to believe all the testing had been done. The first few weeks of owning her was worrying and it took away the pleasure out of the whole experience. So buyer beware, ask to see the paperwork and don't assume anything.


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## DB1

Its a shame you had to go through the worry, I wouldn't feel bad about not checking the paperwork, I must admit I just trusted the breeder and luckily was ok to as I got a copy of the DNA certificate when I picked up Dudley to bring him home, obviously there would not have been a problem seeing it earlier if I had asked, but I guess your situation just shows you need to be more up front about asking to see it.


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## Jame

Hi. I have just picked out my cockapoo and will be getting her in 7 weeks. Unfortunately I don't think the breeder did genetic testing, but does give a 1 year health guarantee. How expensive would this test be to get and can it be done younger than 1 year of age?


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## DB1

Jame said:


> Hi. I have just picked out my cockapoo and will be getting her in 7 weeks. Unfortunately I don't think the breeder did genetic testing, but does give a 1 year health guarantee. How expensive would this test be to get and can it be done younger than 1 year of age?


Sorry to be harsh but I think most people on here would say find another puppy from a breeder that does testing, I don't believe it is an expensive test and there is no reason in the world why breeders should not get it done before any mating, if people buy untested pups it makes it easier for the breeder to keep breeding without bothering and there could be a lot of blind dogs in the future, a 1 year health guarantee is very generous - but what would that cover? PRA is not likely to show up in that time and if you took the puppy home, had the test and found out they had it would you return the pup - no, I doubt it. I'm not sure what age the pup would have to be to be tested, could you discuss with the breeder the possibility of the mum being tested before you get your puppy, that way she would know if any of the pups were at risk, this is likely to show you how much they really care about the pups they are producing, I know it is really hard when you have set your mind on a puppy, quite a few have pups that were not tested but would not do that again and if you have read this thread thoroughly you will see how much everyone cares about good breeding, the breeders make a lot of money they should not be allowed to take shortcuts....sorry, rant over. Good luck


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## wellerfeller

Some of the genetic diseases may not become apparent until 3-4 years of age. It's just not worth the risk. I would find a health testing breeder and walk away from this puppy. Good breeders deserve our money much more than someone who is not testing and breeding for health.
Good luck.


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## Suecoo66

I've heard recently via another forum about a puppy who came to the owner blind. By the time it was confirmed by the vet following the new owners suspicion the breeder was saying that it wasn't blind when it left them!
Wonder if it is the same breeder ?
I know most forums have a rule of not naming breeders but how will we know which ones to avoid if we are unable to name and shame ?
Websites like Puppy Love Campaigns list them but obviously not everyone knows about this site and might not want to give the details on there


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## Grove

Suecoo66 said:


> I know most forums have a rule of not naming breeders but how will we know which ones to avoid if we are unable to name and shame ?


As long as you make sure that the breeder you are buying from does health testing, then there's not much need for name and shame - otherwise if they weren't on a name and shame list and didn't do testing and you knew another dog from the same breeder you might assume this makes it ok, when it doesn't.

The only way is to make sure your breeder values health testing.


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## Indiechick

Hi sorry for not updating this just been so busy with life Anyway we had Indie's results back and all good news, they showed that she was a carrier but not affected.. big sigh of relief, she is now a healthy 18 month old bundle of chocolate joy and mine and the whole family's best friend (even though she still chews everything in sight ) Everyone wo meets her loves her and we couldn't be without her. Thanks for everyone's help.


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## RuthMill

Hi Skye's mum, I just wanted to say so sorry for your loss. Devastating.


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## Marzi

How awful for you.


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## Susan Thackeray

If only all she was saying was true ?


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