# Okay so get this!!!



## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Remember our big estate/woodland area at parliament buildings (Stormont), where they banned off leash in the ENTIRE park dogs at the start of the year, then they designated a small closed off area for dogs?  Well!! Parents who bring their children in to the closed off dog area have started to complain that some dogs are not in control and come bounding at their children, and they have to bring their children in because they want to exercise their own dog off leash. They have said that even in the dog park, off leash dogs should be controlled and not allowed to jump up etc. GRRRRRRR!!

Whilst I do believe that dogs should be well controlled, I really do think that in a designated area which is in fact not very big, a dog should be allowed to run and bound and jump if it so wishes to do! You take a certain amount of risk in to consideration when you enter a dogs area, as a dog owner you want to protect your dog from other dogs who may not be friendly, but you don't expect to be worrying about someone else's child! Other dog owners have reported children in the dog area with poor dog approach etiquette which is equally as bad as a dog approaching a child 

Absolutely ludicrous. I am completely disgusted. I haven't been to the park since the ban was imposed (apparently as a result of dogs jumping up on non dog lovers and children) and whilst there is a ban and a crappy small closed off area, I will not be back.

It's a new one on me, dogs should be on leash in the dog area! If I was talking to you all face to face I would be saying bad words! Very cross! 

:argh::argh::ugh::ugh::ugh::argh:


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

That is crazy


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm stunned to be honest, I just don't know what the world is coming too, or Northern Ireland should I say! It's just getting worse. It's very saddening.


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## sugerlump (Oct 6, 2012)

hey put the4 kids on a leash. i raised three boy (very active boys) and i used a leash on all of them and they still sell them for kids ok,fair is fair


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## Muttley Brody (Feb 14, 2012)

Just ludicrous, if you can't let dogs act like dogs and run about it's just asking for trouble.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

The solution is surely to just have a warning on the dog area saying 'This is not a children's play area, dogs running free'?

That said I shall play devil's advocate. Dogs should not jump up at children, or foul children's play areas or be a nuisance to people in public places. If dog owners did not allow their dogs to do these things and always cleaned up after their dogs, no one would complain about dogs.
Years ago when Liz was a toddler we were walking our dogs and encountered a lady with a brown large terrier sized mutt, as they approached us Lizzie appealed to me to pick her up, which I did. The lady passed us with her dog loose and said 'Thank you for picking her up, my dog is not good with children.' I was incensed that she had made no effort to call her dog to heel or put her dog on the lead after seeing a small child approaching and knowing that her dog did not like children.
My sons have come home from football matches with dog poo on their kit.
It is not acceptable. As dog owners we have to be responsible for our pets. Unfortunately because of bad owners all dogs are judged.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Sorry Ruth I am with Marzi on this one. Why can't the dogs be taught manners from puppyhood onward? The bite inhibition squeal must be generalized from mouthing to bumping into people, then touching people so that even in full play they will not touch people or jump at them. It can easily be learned, how often do you see dogs at full play run into trees for example? 

I have often walked my clients, some of whom are in wheelchairs, some who are learning to walk and some who have very unstable balance in our dog parks, which admittedly perhaps are much larger than yours, but we should have the right to enjoy them with Rufus without an unruly dog harrassing us. I love dogs, but still believe that people come first.

While in training people with unruly dogs can use the parks in the no kids periods, late and early for example and enlist the other dog people to help their dogs learn.


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

IMO people are not more important than dogs, it's about each animal having its needs met. The humans have the rest of the park!

Difficult to understand what actually happened with the complaints with the kids - Obviously people with 'dangerous dogs' shouldn't let them loose, but normal dog behaviour certainly shouldn't be suppressed just because people don't like dogs running around. If they made the area bigger this would probably be less of a problem anyway


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## SamRinde (Jun 10, 2013)

In York, Pennsylvania (USA), the big dog park in town does not allow kids under 49 inches (1.24 meters) into the dog park. (It's about 2-6 acres depending on which enclosed area you are in). 

https://yorkcountypa.gov/parks-recreation/the-parks/john-c-rudy-park/canine-meadows.html

It's a dog park, not a kid park. Obviously, if your dog isn't well socialized or has lots of issues with people/other dogs, they shouldn't be in there in the first place, but if my dog puts his front paws on you in a dog park, you shouldn't be all that surprised or so upset that you'll complain. If my dog bites you, sure, complain.


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

SamRinde said:


> In York, Pennsylvania (USA), the big dog park in town does not allow kids under 49 inches (1.24 meters) into the dog park. (It's about 2-6 acres depending on which enclosed area you are in).
> 
> https://yorkcountypa.gov/parks-recreation/the-parks/john-c-rudy-park/canine-meadows.html
> 
> It's a dog park, not a kid park. Obviously, if your dog isn't well socialized or has lots of issues with people/other dogs, they shouldn't be in there in the first place, but if my dog puts his front paws on you in a dog park, you shouldn't be all that surprised or so upset that you'll complain. If my dog bites you, sure, complain.


Exactly. Dogs should have priority in the dog park and be allowed to run free and be dogs. I'm sure not everyone's child is impeccably well behaved in the kids park but they wouldn't think about closing that!


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree with you Marzi, that dogs should be taught manners, I whole heartedly agree. What I don't agree with is rules being sanctioned in a designated dog area which would prohibit an over excited dog from being off lead. This park is HUGE. The dog area is tiny, those people with children have a fabulous play park as well as the rest of the estate. I just cannot see how they can complain about what goes on in the dog area. Like I said, whilst the ban is in place, I will not be back. 

I was at this park daily and sometimes twice daily at weekends for hours on end and never came across any foul play. It's such a shame that those who visit seldom seem to get their way.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Grove said:


> Exactly. Dogs should have priority in the dog park and be allowed to run free and be dogs. I'm sure not everyone's child is impeccably well behaved in the kids park but they wouldn't think about closing that!


In the dog area children have approached dogs without asking the owner, chased them with sticks and squealed. Parents have a responsibility to teach children how to behave in the dogs area.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Got my comeuppance this morning when my sisters 160 ish pound, Greap Pyr (who I trained) greated a friendly passerby stopping on the road with a full on jump up her chest with muddy paws. My embarrassment was worsened when she offered to block for an escaped calf and I, being all experienced farmer like, explained that Apricot liked to go for HIS daily excursion. She looked at Apricot and said "I'll block HER, you open the gate".

This is clearly one of those areas, like Raw feeding, where we will have to agree to disagree. I think people come first and people should train their dogs better. It is not just small children who get knocked down by these menace dogs. It means anybody at all infirm or elderly or pregnant or timid cannot take their own well mannered dog to an off leash area. Simply not fair in my book.


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## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

RuthMill said:


> In the dog area children have approached dogs without asking the owner, chased them with sticks and squealed. Parents have a responsibility to teach children how to behave in the dogs area.


Children need training too.
Sadly however badly behaved the child, it would always be the dog's fault


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Marzi said:


> Children need training too.
> Sadly however badly behaved the child, it would always be the dog's fault


Which is why I don't think children under a certain age or who don't know how to behave around dogs should be allowed in the dog area. Dogs aren't allowed in the children's area. There are plenty of other areas where families can be together in the estate with their dogs, albeit the dogs won't be allowed off leash. I just really feel that the off lead dog area should be closed to children.

As for the elderly people, well since the off leash ban they have stopped going to the estate as the off leash area is too far into the estate for them to walk to, a lot of older people would have used the immediate woodland area to exercise their dogs. The majority of whom have older dogs, who have been used to the estate their whole life (the dogs) and haven't adjusted well to walking around on leash, and the owners have expressed that the walk is just no longer enjoyable on leash. I used to meet an elderly man who just went there to throw a ball for his dog, and a lovely lady with two labs and a working cocker who used to fetch and retrieve frisbees. It's such a shame


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

fairlie said:


> Sorry Ruth I am with Marzi on this one. Why can't the dogs be taught manners from puppyhood onward? The bite inhibition squeal must be generalized from mouthing to bumping into people, then touching people so that even in full play they will not touch people or jump at them. It can easily be learned, how often do you see dogs at full play run into trees for example?


I agree fully that all dogs should be well trained from puppyhood. I have two very well trained dogs who I feel I can trust. However what I haven't trained them for or socialised them with is a child running around squealing with waving stick and so whilst I hope they would ignore it for long enough to allow me intervene and tell the child to go away, I don't know if something like this would spook them. This is just one of the examples given at the estate dog walking community (the dog in this instance did not jump up or cause any harm but it was harassed which is worrying, the dog did give a warning bark just as it's owner was approaching to then tell the child to leave the dog alone and ask where the child's parent was. It was at this point that the parent of the child appeared from the other side and became defensive saying her daughter should be allowed to play with the dogs...). It's just not right, or fair to have to watch other peoples unruly kids, which again is the reason that I feel I cannot even go to the dog area, I know my two wouldn't cause any problems but I would hate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with an obnoxious child. 

Perhaps you are right though, we should agree to disagree


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I totally agree that dogs should be under control, certainly round other people and especially children and I would also add around other dogs as I hate me and my dogs being hassled by out of control dogs (and sadly usually black labs around here) and I work hard with mine to stop them being a pest to anyone.

.... but .... I think in the scenario where a huge area has been condensed to a much smaller area you are going to have more dogs racing round and control is going to be much harder and to have children racing round chasing dogs sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me  

I don't think I would be using it with my dogs and feel really sorry they have bought in such drastic restrictions, effectively caused a problem and now seek to further restrict to deal with it 

We are currently having dog control orders consulted on here - I hope our council is sensible


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

2ndhandgal said:


> I totally agree that dogs should be under control, certainly round other people and especially children and I would also add around other dogs as I hate me and my dogs being hassled by out of control dogs (and sadly usually black labs around here) and I work hard with mine to stop them being a pest to anyone.
> 
> .... but .... I think in the scenario where a huge area has been condensed to a much smaller area you are going to have more dogs racing round and control is going to be much harder and to have children racing round chasing dogs sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me
> 
> ...


I hope so too for your sake and your lovely doggies. The only people who suffer in the end are the people who regularly walk their dogs and use the park as part of their daily routine. I've been in estate in the torrential rain, in the snow and when it was like slush after the floods, the only other people I saw at those times were the other regular dog walkers and the elderly people throwing a ball or frisbee around for their dogs.


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## Grove (Oct 17, 2012)

It's a shame they can't find a way to share the bigger area at different times. Many beaches, for example, have dogs allowed at certain times of the year but not allowed off lead in the peak season. Alternatively have certain days of the week where they are allowed and the others they're not. That way people can just not take their kids on those days if they don't want to. It's such a shame for those elderly people who can't make it with their dogs to the small area


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I must not have understood the initial post clearly enough. If parents let a child run around with a stick in a dog park and then complains when the child get knocks down then the parents need their heads examined. What a terrible example to set for their child. I was referring to huge rogue dogs we have here who intentionally run at people knocking them down or giving them serious knee damage. If I brought my sister's dog to a dog park I'd keep him on leash until I had warned everybody he is untrustworthy and to see if they were willing to help me train him not to jump, if the answer was yes and no children or nervous people were about we'd have some off leash play, if no then we'd have an on leash walk instead.


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## Yogi bear (Feb 25, 2013)

Marzi said:


> Children need training too.
> Sadly however badly behaved the child, it would always be the dog's fault


I TOTALLY agree, my boy is very well behaved and has good manners but some parents seem to think that because of that, they can let their child do what they want with MY dog!! Seymour was playing fetch nicely in the park, minding his own business and this 6ish year old boy comes up to him from behind. I told the boy to stop and never approach/startle a dog but he did not listen. The parents heard me too, but did they do anything? Uh no! Seymour backed away, shocked by this child and I told the parents that my dog has clearly been startled. Did they take their boy away...of course not! They let him chase after poor Seymour even after we started walking away! STUPID!!!!! If Seymour did anything it would be my fault! WTF! Sorry just had to vent that! And breathe....

I agree Ruth, a dog park should be an area where well behaved dogs can run and play freely. Parents need to train their children, and if they can't do that then why don't they use the rest of the entire park! Right sad it! Grrrrrrrrr


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Yogi bear said:


> I TOTALLY agree, my boy is very well behaved and has good manners but some parents seem to think that because of that, they can let their child do what they want with MY dog!! Seymour was playing fetch nicely in the park, minding his own business and this 6ish year old boy comes up to him from behind. I told the boy to stop and never approach/startle a dog but he did not listen. The parents heard me too, but did they do anything? Uh no! Seymour backed away, shocked by this child and I told the parents that my dog has clearly been startled. Did they take their boy away...of course not! They let him chase after poor Seymour even after we started walking away! STUPID!!!!! If Seymour did anything it would be my fault! WTF! Sorry just had to vent that! And breathe....
> 
> I agree Ruth, a dog park should be an area where well behaved dogs can run and play freely. Parents need to train their children, and if they can't do that then why don't they use the rest of the entire park! Right sad it! Grrrrrrrrr


This is exactly my argument. Poor Seymour, those parents are complete losers!


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## PoppyLove (May 26, 2014)

Yogi bear said:


> I TOTALLY agree, my boy is very well behaved and has good manners but some parents seem to think that because of that, they can let their child do what they want with MY dog!! Seymour was playing fetch nicely in the park, minding his own business and this 6ish year old boy comes up to him from behind. I told the boy to stop and never approach/startle a dog but he did not listen. The parents heard me too, but did they do anything? Uh no! Seymour backed away, shocked by this child and I told the parents that my dog has clearly been startled. Did they take their boy away...of course not! They let him chase after poor Seymour even after we started walking away! STUPID!!!!! If Seymour did anything it would be my fault! WTF! Sorry just had to vent that! And breathe....
> 
> I agree Ruth, a dog park should be an area where well behaved dogs can run and play freely. Parents need to train their children, and if they can't do that then why don't they use the rest of the entire park! Right sad it! Grrrrrrrrr


I totally understand your frustration - we often have children attempting to pick Poppy up or hug her, which she tolerates (because she is a nice dog) but does not enjoy. However, I would not get mad at a boisterous child, in much the same way as I would not get mad if my child was knocked over by a playful/boisterous dog (which has also happened on a couple of occasions). There will always be children that do not know how to behave around dogs but mean no harm, and dogs that are unruly and boisterous but mean no harm. And there will always be parents and owners that don't do enough about their unruly charges. If parents (in particular) and dog owners both accepted this with good grace, instead of getting wound-up and making complaints when no real harm has been done, maybe there would be less calls for dogs to be banned from parts of public parks. Parents turning on dog owners, and dog owners turning on parents does nobody any good and deflects from the real issues that councils should be concentrating on such as dangerous or neglected dogs and neglected children and kids being anti-social. 
A simplistic argument maybe, but I'm all for harmony in life.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

I'm totally with you Ruth, it would make me me if that happened here!


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