# Daisy at puppy training :(



## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

My husband and Annabel normally take Daisy to puppy classes but tonight I took her. She has recently started barking at people when they come towards her even though she is wagging her tail! The trainer started walking in our direction and she started to bark. I was then given a lemon squeezy thing with water in it and told to squirt her everytime she barked. I did it a couple of times but she looked so sad.  I then felt miserable for the rest of the lesson, especially after she said Daisy and Max were being trained to see other dogs as more fun than us. Maybe I am being a softy! 

Am I mixed up here (probably!), but if you are training using positive reinforcements then squirting with water doesn't fit as to me it is adversive? I thought that if you had a barker then you first had to train the dog to bark and then train it to stop barking. That way you control the bark. If you are squirting the dog surely you are encouraging it to never bark, which might not always be a good thing?

I need help, my brain is tired at the moment!


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## kendal (Jul 16, 2009)

it depends on what works, what i advice is get the dogs attention on you, or a short sharp lead correction. i dont think you can be 100% positive, dogs aren't 100% positive to each other, if one is doing something another doesn't find acceptable it is told off by the other dog. 

it could be the way the person approached her, walking face on to a dog can sometimes be seen my a dog as confrontational. Delta is a barker at the moment which I'm not used to my lot don't tend to bark on lead but she does out on walks more so since a bichon barked right in her face. 


you just need to find what works. scoosh her but then get her to do something you know she can do and prase her for it.


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## jools (Nov 11, 2010)

Dexters also started to bark at people when they come towards us when we're out walking .......... going to training on Friday will tell you how my guy deals with it!!


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

poor Daisy, I agree with you Sarah. I wouldn't be happy squirting her. Some circumstances might justify it but little Daisy has had rough start in life and is only just learning to trust her family, Its pretty harsh for her then to be squirted by someone she is learning to trust and you have done such hard work with her!!
Some trainers leave my mind boggling!!!
It sounds like she is barking through insecurity and I would've thought it best to build her confidence with strangers rather than a squirt in the face with a bottle of lemon water. Perhaps getting people to approach her from the side not head on and not looking directly at her, and then have something nice happen ie, treat, toy?
If I were you I might think about a new training class
Bigs hugs to you and Daisy xx


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

wellerfeller said:


> poor Daisy, I agree with you Sarah. I wouldn't be happy squirting her. Some circumstances might justify it but little Daisy has had rough start in life and is only just learning to trust her family, Its pretty harsh for her then to be squirted by someone she is learning to trust and you have done such hard work with her!!
> Some trainers leave my mind boggling!!!
> It sounds like she is barking through insecurity and I would've thought it best to build her confidence with strangers rather than a squirt in the face with a bottle of lemon water. Perhaps getting people to approach her from the side not head on and not looking directly at her, and then have something nice happen ie, treat, toy?
> If I were you I might think about a new training class
> Bigs hugs to you and Daisy xx


Thank you, I thought I was just being silly but it just went completely against what I felt to be right. I agree with what you said that that she has to completely trust us and I don't think it is good for her to be squirted.  I think that when we are out and she does it I will try and distract her and when she stops and looks at me I will reward her. Bit like a toddler, distraction is always a good method of stopping them doing something naughty. I just came away feeling really sad and not liking the woman which is a bit of a shame as I see her up our local field. 

Thanks for the hugs! 
xx


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi Sarah - I find the whole area of training really difficult as there are so many
different opinions. Betty was promoted to the 'big' class this week and the trainer basically contradicted everything the previous trainer had said
If they can't even be consistent within the same school what hope is there...
She also had a strange manner - the previous instructed had advised to
give a sharp tug on the lead if the dog was pulling but this woman said
''if I see anyone tugging on their dogs leads, I will take it off the dog and put it on you neck and tug on it to see how you like it!! It drives me crazy..


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

It is hard, especially if you have read alot first and form an opinion of what kind of training you like! The trainer last night was all for tugging on the lead and again it was something that I was not sure of. Maybe your new trainer will have some interesting training methods that are reward based. Please do share if she suggests anything good. Daisy is a wotsit for tugging on the lead especially when we pass a certain corner where there are cats!


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## Cockapoodledoo (Feb 8, 2011)

Sarah I've never believed that 'one size fits all' in training. I have used a water squeezy with Rufus when he has become so excited at agility that he cannot function ......and nor can I ......or the rest of the class! It worked with him but he is a confident dog and I felt his behaviour needed interrupting as he couldn't hear my commands and equally was so excited that I couldn't get near him to remove him from the situation either! I don't generally advocate spaying with water and would never spray Basil .....he's a completely different character and would be quite upset by it I think. From reading your posts and journeying with you in your training of Daisy I would totally agree with you that it is not appropriate for her and could well put her back in her confidence.

I have been trying to attach an article that I was emailed along with class notes from this week's puppy class with 'The Company of Animals' in Chertsey. Chirag Patel is the dog behaviourist who runs our classes along with their trainer ... yet another Karen! (Hill). He has written an article about barking that is in the October issue of 'Dogs Today' mag. I think you might find it useful. I'll see if I can PM it to you. The file size is too big for the forum itself.

I am sooooooo impressed with the classes that 'The Company of Animals' run. I have learned so much and it is all about understanding dogs and positive reinforcement. 

Karen xx


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## Cockapoodledoo (Feb 8, 2011)

Sezra said:


> It is hard, especially if you have read alot first and form an opinion of what kind of training you like! The trainer last night was all for tugging on the lead and again it was something that I was not sure of. Maybe your new trainer will have some interesting training methods that are reward based. Please do share if she suggests anything good. Daisy is a wotsit for tugging on the lead especially when we pass a certain corner where there are cats!


We have done a good session on lead pulling at our classes. I felt the advice was realistic too:

Basic training sessions: If there is pressure on the lead - stop. If your dog pulls - take steps in the opposite direction. You may not get to the end of the road even, but your dog should learn that if they feel pressure on their collars then they do not get anywhere. It will take time and patience but they will eventually get the idea.

Never ever jerk the lead or pull back sharply. You may damage your pup's neck. Sharply pulling back or jerking the lead hurts your dog and this sort of training instils conformation through fear of that tug rather than respect of each other.

The realistic bit: Your dog needs exercise, the kids need picking up from school in 10 mins etc etc. When you are not in a specific training session then always, always use either a non-pull head collar (eg Halti) or a non pull harness. Even if you are walking from your front door to the car .....if you have not got time to stop/start as above then put on the head collar or harness. If your dog gets to feel pressure on his/her collar and it gets them where they want to go then all previous training is undone. 

Hope this is helpful. I felt it was good advice at the class. It'll be a pain to begin with but will pay off in the long run. I'm following the above advice now with Rufus who is a complete wotsit for pulling on the lead too!

Karen xx


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

Thank you very much Karen. What you are saying makes perfect sense and I can see how a confident dog might not be bothered and think 'What was that!" but Daisy just looked at me as if she was wondering what on earth I was doing!

I have replied to your pm with my email address and I look forward to having a read! I would give you a green spot but it wont let me give you another one yet! 

xx


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

Some good advice - I feel terrible about the lead jerking I've been doing
over the past weeks on the advice of the trainer now I've read this.
Just had a look at their website and thinking of joinging a calss - I notice
they advertise as the lessons being outdoors which I like the sound of as it's
the enviroment we need to train our dogs in ( ie all very well in a church hall
without cats /birds and other distractions!!)


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Hi Colin, don't feel bad, you have just taken the advice of someone who is supposed to know how to deal with thses things but as the other Karen said, each dog is an individual and should be trained accordingly, confident, brash, strong dogs need a totally different method to one like Daisy. She has had a rough start and needs a bit of understanding and confidence building. 
I would have thought that a trainer should get an idea of a dog's background and story before deciding what type of methods to use.
If your not happy with doing anything in your training classes you should say so and the trainer should be willing to listen, if they don't, well there are lots out there and you will find one you are happy with


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## Cockapoodledoo (Feb 8, 2011)

colpa110 said:


> Some good advice - I feel terrible about the lead jerking I've been doing
> over the past weeks on the advice of the trainer now I've read this.
> Just had a look at their website and thinking of joinging a calss - I notice
> they advertise as the lessons being outdoors which I like the sound of as it's
> ...


Colin if you live close enough I can't recommend them enough. I have felt really comfortable with all of their instruction and following every class we are emailed notes and video links. We are encouraged to ring if we have problems during the week between the classes too. We must chat on Sunday about it. I've got two more weeks of puppy classes and then I shall be booking on to one of their other courses.

Karen xx


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## michaelwatson54 (Jun 24, 2011)

Sezra said:


> My husband and Annabel normally take Daisy to puppy classes but tonight I took her. She has recently started barking at people when they come towards her even though she is wagging her tail! The trainer started walking in our direction and she started to bark. I was then given a lemon squeezy thing with water in it and told to squirt her everytime she barked. I did it a couple of times but she looked so sad.  I then felt miserable for the rest of the lesson, especially after she said Daisy and Max were being trained to see other dogs as more fun than us. Maybe I am being a softy!
> 
> Am I mixed up here (probably!), but if you are training using positive reinforcements then squirting with water doesn't fit as to me it is adversive? I thought that if you had a barker then you first had to train the dog to bark and then train it to stop barking. That way you control the bark. If you are squirting the dog surely you are encouraging it to never bark, which might not always be a good thing?
> 
> I need help, my brain is tired at the moment!


Hi Sarah
Dog training  You must do what you are comfortable with If someone tell's you to do something to your dog and you don't feel happy with it tell them ask them why they want to do it that way ask them if they have any alternative methods to achieve the aim If they struggle to answer any if not all of your question's then I would suggest finding another trainer!

If you have signed up to train your dog with positive reward based methods. I am confused that the first thing they want you to do is squirt water in her face

I would prefer to gain Daisy's attention by interacting/distracting her and then use the click, reward for looking at you and stopping barking It may take a little longer but a lot more of a pleasure


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## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

Sezra said:


> Thank you, I thought I was just being silly but it just went completely against what I felt to be right. I agree with what you said that that she has to completely trust us and I don't think it is good for her to be squirted.  I think that when we are out and she does it I will try and distract her and when she stops and looks at me I will reward her. Bit like a toddler, distraction is always a good method of stopping them doing something naughty. I just came away feeling really sad and not liking the woman which is a bit of a shame as I see her up our local field.
> 
> Thanks for the hugs!
> xx




If you don't feel happy about this I would talk through your concerns after class with your trainer.

It does I agree seem strange technique for a trainer who is all about positive reinforcement training though.

It is an old one technique and I am not totally against it as I believe every dog is different and what works for one may not another.

I do feel however it would need to be use sparingly and appropriately i.e dog is sprayed immediately when barking starts so there is no time lapse and the dog knows it is to do with barking and not confused and then followed by a reward when they stop.

Over use isn't a good thing IMO but as a method where other reward training has failed- I don't feel owners should feel bad about trying.
But I feel other reward and positive training should be done first and then this technique as a last resort.

It's the same principle as the citronella collars just you are doing it yourself.

However in Daisy's case due to her confusing start and soft nature I wouldn't use this technique.


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

michaelwatson54 said:


> Hi Sarah
> Dog training  You must do what you are comfortable with If someone tell's you to do something to your dog and you don't feel happy with it tell them ask them why they want to do it that way ask them if they have any alternative methods to achieve the aim If they struggle to answer any if not all of your question's then I would suggest finding another trainer!
> 
> *If you have signed up to train your dog with positive reward based methods. I am confused that the first thing they want you to do is squirt water in her face*
> ...


I completely agree, I specifically asked on the phone when I booked the training about the methods use, so I was confused when she gave me the water squeezer. She is also a 'lead jerker' and although she demonstrated 'cuddling' my friends dog, she held him in position on his back (on her lap) and wouldn't release him. I sat there thinking...this looks like a dominance roll thing that Cesar does! 

I just feel let down, I always advise people to find a trainer that uses positive training methods and here I am with just the sort I didn't want! Oh well, we live and learn  .

I really like your distract/reward method, I will try that. That sounds easy enough, she loves her treats and fuss! I have bought a clicker recently as I had planned to use it in conjunction with treats and then wean her off the treats a bit . Maybe now is a good time.  

Thank you all for your advice!  x


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## colpa110 (Jul 5, 2011)

Cockapoodledoo said:


> Colin if you live close enough I can't recommend them enough. I have felt really comfortable with all of their instruction and following every class we are emailed notes and video links. We are encouraged to ring if we have problems during the week between the classes too. We must chat on Sunday about it. I've got two more weeks of puppy classes and then I shall be booking on to one of their other courses.
> 
> Karen xx


Hi Karen

It's only about 25 mins from where I live. I've just given them a call and liked what I heard so am probably going to sign up for the ''follow on'' training sarting 5th Nov.

I like the fact that it is also on a Saturday because it's such a rush after work..

Thanks for the recomendation..


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## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

Sezra said:


> I completely agree, I specifically asked on the phone when I booked the training about the methods use, so I was confused when she gave me the water squeezer. She is also a 'lead jerker' and although she demonstrated 'cuddling' my friends dog, she held him in position on his back (on her lap) and wouldn't release him. I sat there thinking...this looks like a dominance roll thing that Cesar does!
> 
> I just feel let down, I always advise people to find a trainer that uses positive training methods and here I am with just the sort I didn't want! Oh well, we live and learn  .
> 
> ...




Sarah your trainer sounds not ideal for you at all- lead jerking is a no-no IMO and as for the on your lap alpha roll 

You have enough books and I would try training her yourself. You have lots of social interaction with your dog walking buddies to help and why pay some-one you are not keen on when in reality you could probably do better yourself.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

As far as training classes and trainers are concerned I would thoroughly recommend using someone who is registered with the UK Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) http://www.apdt.co.uk/

They should use positive methods and are not allowed to use harsher methods like squirting with water, or leash corrections. I would also look for small classes where the numbers of pups is limited so everyone gets as much individual attention as they need. 

I can thoroughly recommend a class in Warwickshire for anyone local to me.

Hope you find somewhere more suitable for Daisy


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## jools (Nov 11, 2010)

My trainer said to distract Dexter if he starts barking when people approach & maybe walk the other way with him ............ might look a bit of a loon but i'm gonna give it a go!!!!  p.s............he doesn't do it all the time it depends what the circumstances are - it seems to be when he feels threatened that he does it!! x


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## Mogdog (Feb 6, 2011)

Cockapoodledoo said:


> I am sooooooo impressed with the classes that 'The Company of Animals' run. I have learned so much and it is all about understanding dogs and positive reinforcement.


Hi Karen,

I like the sound of "The Company of Animals" and just had a look at their website. Chertsey is about 25 mins away from me ... can I talk to you about it tomorrow?

Sue x


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