# Bad Habit



## Alinos (May 19, 2014)

Zorro is doing weird things. He is 7 months old. He's almost never slept in a crate. Always in the bed with me. My bedroom is connected thru a small corridor to the bath room which has his pee pad. Normally he would wait for me to wake up and then go do his business. And then he started doing it even before I woke up. But in the last few days he is peeing all over the bathroom. And pooping as well Anywhere but on the pee pad. Couple of times he's also pooped on the carpet in the corridor. 
What's going on and how do I correct it?


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

It could be a bit of adolescence coming through now at this age. Quite often, it's back to scratch with the training when they lose their way a little with adolescence. Does he go out at night to relieve himself right before bed? 

Do you need to have a pee pad in the house still? Where does he do his toiletting on a daily basis. He could be a little confused, or finding it difficult to understand where he is supposed to go if he is going outside and inside.


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## erinafare (Dec 9, 2012)

I agree Ruth I ditched the pee pads early a week with Poppy and only couple of days with Boycie. He just started to follow her.
Boycie started those tricks at about that age. I just cleared it up saying who did this. The look on his face spoke volumes. He stopped on his own accord a couple of days later. Never had any poo problems though x


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## Alinos (May 19, 2014)

The pee pads are because I live in a high rise and Zorro cannot go out too often. Maybe I need to ensure that we go once super late in the night. It's just been so cold lately that even when would go out, he wouldn't poop or pee. He wanted to be back in the apartment as well 


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

I think pee pads are always going to get in the way of a dog being clean in the house as you are saying her can go in the house.

I would get rid of them totally and take him out more. Last time just before you go to bed and you stay out until he has been to the toilet and first thing in the morning, throw clothes on and straight out with him then several times during the day.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

It sounds like he loves his comforts. Does he have a coat to wear in the cold? I'd stay out late until he's done his business no matter what the weather. Give him a treat when he performs. Could you construct a defined wall for his toilet? Maybe a large shallow pan? Treats for when he uses it properly, a verbal scolding when he does not is in order at his age I'd say.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Verbal scolding for toileting can often result in a dog reluctant to toilet in front of you - which would result in the area behind sofa's and under beds as the place of choice and reduce the chance of toileting on the lead which I guess is Zorros only other option.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

I know this is what all the books say now 2nd, but sometimes there are exceptions. For a dog who was trained (I think Zorro was?) and who has no health issues then a mild verbal scolding has worked for dogs I have known.

The people I know who live on the higher floors of high rises have said a dog toilet is a Godsend for power failures, dog being sick, person being sick, really elderly dog who need to toilet more frequently and so on. I hate pee pads and agree with you that they cause issues but sometimes a dog toilet makes good sense.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Maybe it is a cultural difference as I don't know anyone who lives in a circumstance when they need to use a dog toilet but I accept there clearly can be.

Incidentally Chance wee'd on my friends carpet when she was a good 8 months old and certainly knew better  I asked for a rolled up newspaper  I wished to hit myself on the head with it - I was at my friends with a group of friends and every time she went outside someone played ball with her and deep down I knew she had not had any opportunity to toilet despite spending ages in the garden.


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Totally agree you should have smacked yourself with the paper.  No way would I ever smack, I'm talking about foot stomping, huffing and puffing, and a growly NO !

I'm not sure how many power failures you guys have there? Where I am we can count on three or four short ones every winter and sometimes after big storms in the other months as well. A couple of times they've gone on for more than a week, even in the cities. Imagine if you lived onthe 18th floor of a high rise with a dog and no elevator.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Not much in the way of power failures mostly in recent years apart from when storms bring down power lines. Not many high rises anything like that height where I live either as peoples homes, more likely to be used as office blocks.


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## Alinos (May 19, 2014)

I am going to be on the 20th floor there! but thankfully the building has power back up, so shouldn't be stuck with no power!

I have not been reprimanding him ( he's too spoilt to be even threatened with a smack  when I see what he's done coz I not sure he would understand what he's was getting disciplined for!

I am going to make sure that Zorro goes and his does his business late at night. He and I both got lazy and didn't want to hang out in the cold outside! Also, after he poops and pees outside, i will close the bathroom door, so he doesn't think that doing it inside is even an option. 

Lets see how this goes.


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## Sandhya333 (May 18, 2014)

fairlie said:


> I know this is what all the books say now 2nd, but sometimes there are exceptions. For a dog who was trained (I think Zorro was?) and who has no health issues then a mild verbal scolding has worked for dogs I have known.
> 
> The people I know who live on the higher floors of high rises have said a dog toilet is a Godsend for power failures, dog being sick, person being sick, really elderly dog who need to toilet more frequently and so on. I hate pee pads and agree with you that they cause issues but sometimes a dog toilet makes good sense.


Totally agree Fairlie. 

Alinos - I had exactly the same problem with Barney - once at 5 months when he started peeing next to his food bowl - consistently during or as soon as he'd finished his tea. This went on for about a week. And then again a couple of days ago - when he decided to pee on my bed. Luckily it was on the duvet, and I was with him - so managed to strip the bedsheets quickly.

For both instances I told him off severely. And in both instances it only needed one big scolding. And for a puppy who has only heard endearments and cooing coming from me, this was a huge shock for him. After each time, the poor baby looked completely crestfallen, which reduced me to tears - as he normally is a happy, confident, bouncy soul. It took a lot of cuddles and playing with him to get him back to normal.

However, he has never repeated the incident he has been told off for. I'm sure there will be new mischief he will get up to as he pushes his boundaries.

The only time Barney has pood in the house is when he was not feeling too well. 

Have you changed Zorro's diet recently?


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm going to say I don't agree with scolding, how can we be certain that scolding works over ignoring unwanted behaviour and praising wanted behaviour. I guess it depends on the definition of scolding/severely telling off. If it is simply a very firm no then moving on from the incident, then I get that, and agree that correct association with the word no should be trained. I use the word no but more often just before or at the exact moment either dog displays unwanted behaviour, like stealing a sock or going for a piece of food that's fallen on to the floor. I am not sure I get the logic behind much more than a firm no, surely a dog is unlikely to understand they are being scolded, or why. The other thing is timing, if a dog is scolded even seconds after an incident, they will have no idea why they are being scolded. Similar to clicker training, you have to get the click on at just the right moment to reinforce wanted behaviour. Which takes me back to my argument of ignoring unwanted and praising wanted behaviour as the effective way to train/communicate with your dog. 

I don't want to be argumentative, I just want to put a different point of view across. I am willing to learn though and try to understand the other school of thought.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

RuthMill said:


> I'm going to say I don't agree with scolding, how can we be certain that scolding works over ignoring unwanted behaviour and praising wanted behaviour. I guess it depends on the definition of scolding/severely telling off. If it is simply a very firm no then moving on from the incident, then I get that, and agree that correct association with the word no should be trained. I use the word no but more often just before or at the exact moment either dog displays unwanted behaviour, like stealing a sock or going for a piece of food that's fallen on to the floor. I am not sure I get the logic behind much more than a firm no, surely a dog is unlikely to understand they are being scolded, or why. The other thing is timing, if a dog is scolded even seconds after an incident, they will have no idea why they are being scolded. Similar to clicker training, you have to get the click on at just the right moment to reinforce wanted behaviour. Which takes me back to my argument of ignoring unwanted and praising wanted behaviour as the effective way to train/communicate with your dog.
> 
> I don't want to be argumentative, I just want to put a different point of view across. I am willing to learn though and try to understand the other school of thought.


I agree entirely with this - my dogs understand the concept of no - although usually use other words lie leave or off or ah-ah to mean I don't want them to be doing whatever they are doing at that moment. 

After that exact moment and they will have no concept what they are being told off for and it risks damaging our relationship. 

Maybe I should confess that in the early days with Molly she wee'd on my bed on two separate occasions  both times I just cleaned up and there was no element of telling off - at that time we were living between 2 houses and still learning about each other and life was stressful all round for both of us. I was not particularly pleased she did it - but did not blame her particularly either. She has never done it since.


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## Alinos (May 19, 2014)

I took him out late late at night and he still did the same again this morning. I don't know what's going on. His poop does seem to be slightly runny. Maybe it's a slightly upset stomach? I am switching him to chicken and rice today. But I am going out of town for 2 days and I am dreading Zorro doing this at the dog sitters. 

Zorro does understand the concept of No. He knows he's doing something wrong when I say No. But if it's something he feels strongly about, he continues doing it till I come over and physically remove his from the situation. 

But as the pee'ing is happening at night , it's no use reprimanding him as he wouldn't be able to connect the action to the reprimand. 

Too many changes happening in his life and mine right now and I don't think the poor tyke will get any stability till mid of December when we are settled in our new house in Delhi and have a settled routine. 


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Allinos, he will get there, try not to worry. He is still young and sometimes they just back track a little. I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it. If I were you, the next thing I would try is to set my alarm for as early as possible, say 4:30 and take him outside to prevent the need for him to go inside at this time. If you praise him, he will know he's doing a good thing then I would gradually make the time later. The key I found with really good toilet training is to get there before they do. I know getting up that early and having to go out seems extreme but it will only be for a short time. He should be able to hold it, but for some reason he has got used to toiletting early in the morning when he really could hold it. So reinforce to him where you want him to go by taking him out early and letting him know you are pleased. Then quietly back inside and back to bed. My girls can hold on til after 10am, granted mostly we are up at 6/7 even at weekends but the very seldom occasion that we have slept on has been fine. They don't move til we do. 

I also get that you are in a high rise and going out is maybe not as easy as nipping to the back garden but it will pay off in the end. Dogs are good at getting in to a routine and holding until they are taken out so there is no reason why Zorro can't be completely house broken. 

You will get there!


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## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

It is great that we disagree because we all agree we are passionate about our dogs and what is best for them. I think so much depends on the individual dog, exactly how it is with children. Some kids respect "no" from the get go, other kids will push and push and push until they learn what it really means. You can't let a two year old play with the knob on the gas stove and anyone who has had a willful two year old will know that "no" can become a bit of a game. You can ignore and reward positives til the cows come home but in the meantime your family will die of gas poisoning. There really are times when a well deserved scolding for a willful dog is the easiest and quickest solution in my book. If I ever have a dog that is anglic with just the use of a clicker then I'll just use that.


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## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

It will be interesting to see what he does at the dog sitters - do they use puppy pads too or is he expected to go out?

It is nice Fairlie that we can discuss without it descending to fisticuffs and I don't think any of us are far apart.

Lol - having said that I will now disagree with you  Chance is a sweet girl who just wants to do as she is told, only issue is occasionally her strong collie side but her obedience means it is not usually a problem. Madam Molly on the other hand does not give two hoots for rules and regulations. She looks at any given situation to see exactly what SHE can get out of it  Added to that she came to me at 17 months untrained and having been left to run riot 

My approach with any behaviour I do not want is to work out what the dog is getting out of it. They are all simple souls at heart and do what works and they gain something from and don't do what does not work. Once I have worked out WHY the dog is doing it I can work out what to do about it. Things I might use are:

teaching an alternative - I want to put leads on calm dogs, ask for sit and don't put lead on until I get it

removing the temptation - climbing on tables, she likes climbing, push chairs under

just waiting for an alternative - scrabbling at car window when I am opening the door, just wait until she stops then open the door

I also think telling off can always have an effect which you do not want - this is from a post I wrote ages ago 

"_As an interesting after point - this year has been really hard at work and to add to this a while back I had a few weeks of real defiant problem behaviour with her. She was stealing anything she could, climbing onto the table and generally defying me every way she could which I really did not need at the same times as being stressed from work. When I talked it over with my friend I realised it all stemmed from a really bad day I had at work when I had come home and shouted at her for something and nothing 

Took a bit of thinking but the next time I saw her on the table instead of telling her to get down I just said hello to her and walked past a few times and even gave her a fuss. She got down without being told, and when I sat down she came and settled on my lap with a sigh and really relaxed with me in a way she had not for the last couple of weeks. 

So my baby ratbag had been misbehaving for weeks because I had stressed her out and presumably made her feel insecure_"


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## caz3 (Mar 27, 2014)

Brilliant to hear everyone putting their views across you all sound so passionate which is lovely ,but got to agree with the no scolding yeh a no when they are caught in the act but not later on.Got to agree with 2nd hand girl here Harley wasn't long in catching on that if he sat nice and calm the door got opened ,lead put on etc.As for the toilet traing Harley was the same housetrained really quick but now and again he would have an accident ,he is now 10months and I feel he is really coming into hiself do small dogs take longer????i don't know I was so used to Labradors and think I used to compare Harley to them .I am sure things will turn the corner soon and can only echo what others have said get up earlier etc I know it must be a pain living high rise but it will pay dividends in the long run good luck and I wish you all the best


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## Hollysefton (Sep 28, 2013)

What a very polite debate! I see both sides, i have only verbally scolded Murphy once in his 11 months, when I caught him in the act of weeing on the floor. It worked and he hasn't done it again. I really think it depends on the actual dog you have. From reading about 2ndhand's Molly I would think it counterproductive to scold her, But Murphy can handle it. Emmy his sister on the other hand is much more sensitive and requires a different approach. So I'm on the fence with this one. 

I'm sure zorro will get there, they do say they take a backwards step in adolescence , so hopefully it's just a phase! X 


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

We can indeed share our views. I'm glad. People shouldn't get offended by opinions of others, everyone should be allowed to have their voice and share their thoughts. Good healthy discussion!


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