# Any F2 litters out there at the moment?



## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

Hello peeps,

As you know I am looking for an F2 stud for my Millie, but I am also interested in finding any F2 litters that are around. Has anyone seen any adverts?

There is an F2 stud called Fizz, but I cannot find him anymore, can anyone else help me find him please.

Many thanks
Tx


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## edenorchards (Sep 3, 2013)

MissCupcake said:


> I'm confused...are you looking for an F2 puppy litter or an F2 stud dog?
> What mix are you hoping to breed? F2 + F2?


She is looking for an F2 stud with little success (it really is hard to find decent studs for Cockapoos here too) and she is also looking for F2 litters. My guess would be that she is considering raising her own F2 stud. Then she'd have F3 litters which (by many) are considered ideal unless one is trying to breed a full line which requires a lot of dogs and a decade and many, many DNA tests. **NOTE** breeders do not go for certain "mixes" as you termed it unless they are breeding backcrosses. Not all breeders do breed backcrosses and in my experience the majority don't breed backcrosses. Breeders go for specific generation pups in general. That is what counts. Not the "mix". F1 pups are widely variable and really not the best to breed. F2 pups have less diversity and more reliability however many uneducated breeders shy away from F2s due to misunderstandings about genetics. (Other breeders shy away from F2 pups because of good understanding of genetics and what they are intentionally trying to select in their program) and F3's and beyond lose "hybrid vigor". For the best blend of traits and the highest reliability the F3 is the way to go-but it does have very little vigor left as a result of the total outcross. But it is a decent compromise. 

Using a proven and grown stud has many benefits and buying a pup has risks involved (what if he doesn't grow to be a perfect specimen), but owning the stud also has many, many benefits.

Anyway-I don't know of any F2 litters on that side of the world, sadly :-( Wish I could help!


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## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

Nope not found any F2 studs I would happily let you know about Tracey   

Love to Millie .. I would love to see new photos when you get time xxx


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## dmgalley (Aug 19, 2012)

edenorchards said:


> She is looking for an F2 stud with little success (it really is hard to find decent studs for Cockapoos here too) and she is also looking for F2 litters. My guess would be that she is considering raising her own F2 stud. Then she'd have F3 litters which (by many) are considered ideal unless one is trying to breed a full line which requires a lot of dogs and a decade and many, many DNA tests. **NOTE** breeders do not go for certain "mixes" as you termed it unless they are breeding backcrosses. Not all breeders do breed backcrosses and in my experience the majority don't breed backcrosses. Breeders go for specific generation pups in general. That is what counts. Not the "mix". F1 pups are widely variable and really not the best to breed. F2 pups have less diversity and more reliability however many uneducated breeders shy away from F2s due to misunderstandings about genetics. (Other breeders shy away from F2 pups because of good understanding of genetics and what they are intentionally trying to select in their program) and F3's and beyond lose "hybrid vigor". For the best blend of traits and the highest reliability the F3 is the way to go-but it does have very little vigor left as a result of the total outcross. But it is a decent compromise.
> 
> Using a proven and grown stud has many benefits and buying a pup has risks involved (what if he doesn't grow to be a perfect specimen), but owning the stud also has many, many benefits.
> 
> Anyway-I don't know of any F2 litters on that side of the world, sadly :-( Wish I could help!


Have you had much experience with the F3s? Willow is an F3 and I am praying it means her coat won't be as difficult to manage as Jake"s who an F1b I guess (his mom was an F1b cockapoo and dad an American cocker)


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## Sumes (Aug 3, 2013)

TraceyT33 said:


> Hello peeps,
> 
> As you know I am looking for an F2 stud for my Millie, but I am also interested in finding any F2 litters that are around. Has anyone seen any adverts?
> 
> ...


Try www.pets4homes.co.uk as this site often has cockapoo studs advertised from around the UK.


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## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

Hi Edonorchards
You have got me spot on with your response and reply. I did find an F2 stud a while ago named Fizz but can't seem to find him anymore, he looked a good one. However, I have found another F2 potential stud, but not sure a choc roan mix is a good choice... he is lovely but I am thinking is it better to have a stud with a block colouring such as black or choc or cream rather than a roan colouring?????? Any advice appreciated on that one.

Other than that I am considering (as you say) buying my own F2 pup in the hope that he is good enough to stud. I have been lucky enough to find an F2 litter recently with boys so I am tempted and the other pup is via the person who has the choc roan stud. I am just not sure which way to go. 

The F2 pups I have found are choc and apricot/cream colouring so I feel a good colour, especially as my Millie is cream.

I do want to keep one of Millies F3 pups so maybe buying a stud isn't a good idea lol, as I think I would be pushing my luck were my hubby is concerned, although he absolutely adores Millie.

Thank you so much for the replies. Will keep you posted.

Tx


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## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

Hi JoJo

I have forgotten how to upload pics on here.... I am no good at that sort of task lol
Lovely seeing your Crumbles, they are amazing colours, bet you are made up. Honey is such a beautiful cockapoo xxx

Will be in touch soon I bet, you know me ;-) x


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

What colour is Millie , Tracey ??? I've forgotten x


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

I think Millie is blonde/cream if I remember right... And typically CUTE!


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

I think she's black with a white tux.....
If she's dominant black then she"ll only produce black.
She maybe black but carry other recessive colours brown, buff and the most recessive brown nosed red.
Again I'd presume this is the same with the roaning.... Could be chocolate roan or blue roan depending if she's dominant black or not.
If she's purely solid then all the dogs will be solid but she could carry for parti, a roan can also carry for parti. But a parti can't carry for Roan.
Lol lol lol could be wrong ha ha.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

wilfiboy said:


> I think she's black with a white tux.....
> If she's dominant black then she"ll only produce black.
> She maybe black but carry other recessive colours brown, buff and the most recessive brown nosed red.
> Again I'd presume this is the same with the roaning.... Could be chocolate roan or blue roan depending if she's dominant black or not.
> ...


Really.. I really thought she was light colour! Hmmm. My memory must be awful.

You sound like you know what your talking about Karen.. All the colouring etc is way over my head. I know what I like, that's as far as my knowledge goes


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Found some Millie pics...

http://ilovemycockapoo.com/showthread.php?t=10667


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

Lol I thought she was red ???? Then I don't know where I looked but saw black with white I obviously read the wrong thing lol x


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Mysterious Millie!


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

It's her mom that's black with white tux. X


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

That's impressive Karen!


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

So .....
Mom must carry buff to have had Millie ......obviously. If her dad carried brown nose red then she could do too. If she doesn't carry it then brown dogs crossed to buff dogs produce 100% black ... I think it's that neither is more dominant than the other. If either carriers brown nose red then they could have a mixed litter depending on what both dogs carry including black, buff and brown and brown nose red if they both carry it.
Then if Millie was solid then all dogs would be solid.


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## RuthMill (Jun 30, 2012)

Karen.. I didn't know you knew this stuff! I wish I could get my head around it!


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm always reading iabout it I find it really interesting, sometimes it seems easy and then just when I think I've got my head round something I have to go back and check x


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## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

Gosh Im confused now lol

Yes you found my millie pics and yes as you can see she blonde.... yes her mum was black with a white tux and her dad was same colouring as millie.

Would I be better finding a solid colour F2 cockapoo then like a black, choc or cream???

Still not sure about getting my own F2 boy.... I had planned on keeping one of millies puppies and that would be a girl. Might be a bad idea to buy an F2 boy!!!!

F2 studs are very rare, might be a good idea to have one of my own !!! I've found a litter with 4 F2 boy pups 2 choc and 2 apricot, was tempted to get an apricot.....

yikes this is soooooooooooooooooo difficult!!!

my breeder has recommended finding a stud with a block colour as opposed to roan/mixed, although the choccy roan stud does look lovely but I suppose I will get a mix of colours in the litter potentially as this stud has black, brown, parti and red in its genes.

thank u for replying appreciate it x


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

If you get cream you'll only get cream unless they both carry red .if you get chocolate you'll only get black unless either of them carry red ..if Millie carries red then you'll get black and choc if your choc stud carries red then you'll get black and cream / buff. If they both carry red then you'll get black, brown, cream and red. 
If you get cream then they'll all be cream unless they both carry red then you'll get red as well. 
If the apricot has a brown nose but Millie doesn't carry brown nosed red then they'll all be cream but some would carry red, if Millie carries red then buff and red.

Don't know about the roan cos if Millie is dominant solid and doesn't carry parti then she'll only have solid.


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## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

not sure what gene millie carries will have to ask that question. this is soooo interesting. I really want millie to have creams/goldens so in that case I would b better with a cream/golden/red stud which are very difficult to find.

be great if I could find a red or golden stud but im not holding out much hope. Ive got a while to go yet though as she is only 15 months old.

what is it like having one of each, does it work well?
Tx


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## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

Lol can't really answer from a breeding point of view cos mine have both been done...obviously not Fergus cos he's too little. 
I would imagine it would be quite difficult for both dogs when the bitch is in season but not being mated, your boy may have to go on his hols lol x


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## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

i think i am almost 100% sure I am not going to buy an F2 puppy, think its best to find a good quality F2 stud for Millie. I will want to keep one of her puppies and I think hubs will go mental if we had 3 dogs lol.

there are a few F2 litters around at the mo so fingers crossed some more studs will appear next year.

thank u everyone x


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## edenorchards (Sep 3, 2013)

*Genetics*

Ok I'll throw in my 2 cents.

For stud service I don't think you should go with a solid dog unless you want all solid dogs. If you use a parti stud you will get dogs with white trim. The trim could be full and look tuxedo-y or it could be limited to patches of white on the chest and white tipping on a few feet. (If you look at the puppy picture that is my avatar that is a puppy my Fern just whelped and she is a parti and dad is not parti or trimmed with white) It is important to note that white is not "hidden" on red/apricot/cream dogs. If they carry for white spots/piebald gene it will be evident. One copy of the gene produces white trim/tuxedo and two copies gives you a parti dog. Extreme piebald (white dog with only color on the head or no color) is a different gene. Also many dogs have white patches on them but still do NOT carry a copy of the piebald gene. This is called "residual white" It is most often seen as a little white patch on the chin (like a "soul patch" or what I call a "milk chin") and/or a smallish white patch on the chest.

I have to look up roan because I don't remember.

There is no point in breeding her to a chocolate dog. You won't get any chocolate puppies if you do that. Unless the chocolate dog is split for red/apricot/cream (which is all the same color) then you will only get black puppies from a chocolate stud. It is highly unlikely that your little lady carries for chocolate if she had a black mother and an apricot father.
She definitely carries for black as she had a black mama and most people who breed reds try to breed reds that carry for black and not chocolate. Chocolate reds don't have as vibrant a coat and they are more prone to sunburn because the pigment in their nose and eye rims will be extremely pale liver-possibly even a shade darker than pink. Black nose leather and eye rims is more striking on a red dog, also.

Anyway if you breed her to a black stud that carries for red you will get red and black puppies-which I'm sure you know already-but you will also get lots of black puppies.

If you breed her to another cream or apricot or red dog then you will get a litter full of cream and red and apricot (or golden) puppies. That would be my recommendation, especially since it is what you want!

Cream, apricot and red are all the same color. They are all "red". The difference is whether or not they carry dilution genes that dilute the pigment in the coat. So you can breed her to any color in the red family and you'll get the color puppies you are after.

The only thing to be careful of is buff/cream puppies. It is possible for a buff dog to really be a diluted chocolate and not a diluted red. If the color is dun, sandy, brown in any way then you could have a diluted chocolate on your hands. There isn't any point in that breeding as you'll have all black puppies.

A red puppy cannot have a single black or brown hair on it's body. No black eyelashes-nothing. Not one single hair can be black or brown. If you find a black hair on a red dog then you likely have a dog that is a "clear sable". If you breed her to a clear sable (or the more common tipped sable) you will get puppies with golden coats and possibly black tipping (unless your dog carries the gene that blocks agouti gene expression and causes a solid colored body-which you cannot know without a DNA test because recessive red hides everything!)

Have I confused the pants off you yet? LOL.

My two cents? Get the red/apricot F2 male puppy. Then you can breed how and when you want. Separating dogs when skipping a heat cycle is not that hard. The male isn't really happy about it but he will tolerate it well enough if he is of a good temperament. The female won't care at all. You only have to be sure to separate them for about 10-14 days each skipped heat cycle. It isn't so bad.

Also (in my experience) three dogs isn't any different than 2. And you might find that you don't want one of her puppies anyway-but are only interested in enjoying a few litters from her before having her and him fixed.

That and using someone else's stud is a leap of faith. Are they telling the truth about the intelligence, trainability and temperament of the stud? And don't take anyone's word about health testing. Verify the status yourself with papers and even then those can be forged-so always go with a stud that has references and is reliable.

Also doggies can carry a sexually transmitted cancer (thank God people can't get a cancer like this). This is more common in dogs from tropical locations and especially in Asia. It is not super common outside of those areas but be cautions if using a stud that has been abroad.


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## TraceyT33 (Jun 25, 2012)

thank you so much edenorchards.... i had it in my mind that i needed to breed her back to another apricot/red coloured stud and you have confirmed my thoughts were correct. a stud was offered that was parti brown with reds etc in it but i wasn't so sure about that as I would much rather go with a red/apricot colouring.

I have also been advised not to get an F2 stud myself, and look for a good quality boy for her when the time comes. Would it be worth finding an F3 boy instead of an F2 boy???? would that be better and would there be a less likely chance of throwbacks. If you know anything about further generation breeding i am happy to hear it.

I have asked MandyM on here, sent her private messages but heard nothing. Im wondering if she still comes on this forum or is maybe on holiday or something. Hope to hear from her soon as I am sure she has experience with further generation breeding F3, F4 etc so she too may be able to help find a good stud for Millie.

I absolutely love this breed and I have a waiting list of people wanting Millies puppies because they adore her and her temperament.

Best decision ever to get a cockapoo.

You have got me thinking about getting a boy now... i had decided not too. I am just worried that the puppy may not turn out stud material if you know what i mean. I have lots to think about and also lots to learn and further research but your knowledge is amazing and i really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me with such amazing information.

Thank you so much and hope to hear from you soon. 
Tx


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## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

It is fascinating learning more, I did originally think I may have used Dudley as a stud but as he was rather feisty when younger decided against it - he wouldn't have been what you wanted being F1 anyway, he's gold/apricot and had gold cocker mum and choc poodle dad - will need to read Anettes post's again to see what he would have produced - but I guess it depends if he had fading genes....oh its quite confusing isn't it!


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