# To snip or not to snip!



## Bunnyman (Jun 15, 2011)

Young Spartacus is 6 months old now and having his check up at the vets tomorrow. He's a very happy dog with no signs of agression or humping!
I would be interested on views about whether we should consider having him snipped. Have no plans to breed him but dont want to cause him any pain/discomfort. What do you think?
Thanks.


----------



## Dylansmum (Oct 29, 2010)

We had Dylan done at 7-8 months. Vets highly recommend it for health reasons, but one of my main reasons was to minimise aggression from other male dogs, as Dylan had been attacked early in life. I think that it has done that, although there was a period of a few months when all the male dogs would keep sniffing and trying to hump him, as the scent is confusing for a while after castration. But that has stopped now. I also had a friend with a cockapoo who had aggression and humping problems when she left him entire and eventually got him done much later.
The op is very minimal and seemed to cause Dylan no pain. He never tried to even lick the area. The worst part is the buster collar (which I barely used) and not being able to walk him properly for 10 days, but that is soon over. I am glad that I had him done.


----------



## Cockapoodledoo (Feb 8, 2011)

I had Rufus neutered at 6 months. It seemed so major at the time but now I look back it was 'inconvenient' due to the buster collar (which Rufus needed on 24/7!!) and the lead walking but I'm really glad I got him done. A friend's in tact male dog has a dreadful time when a local bitch is in season - he's broken out a few times and goes all sad and frustrated, bless him! I also agree with what Dylansmum said about potential attacks in parks etc.
I have recently found kinder buster collars around. A local pet shop sells a padded version and several friends have recommended the Comfy Collar, which is more like a rubber ring which you blow up. 

Karen x


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

If you are not planning to stud him then maybe get him done. 

My cockapoo Oakley an entire male and although he is great with other dogs, other males dogs do sniff around him and one did get a little aggressive towards Oakley. I believe neutered males are calmer too and for health reasons your vet may recommend him being neutered too. saying that my friends have an entire male lab and he is very calm but I remember he was destructive around the home for some time when he was younger. 

I would like to have a litter from Oakley but the day will come when he will be neutered as I think this is the best for him. Also entire males will scent more than neutered dogs I believe. On my blog I have included a post about Oakley scenting up me, yes me, I am not sure a neutered male would do that.... I have spoken to many breeders about entire males and they do tend to do this, plus they can become rather focused when they pick up a scent of a bitch in season.


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

I also thought about this for a long time with our dog but in the end went for the snip. As like everyone has said there seemed no reason on behaviour grounds to do it but I know vets recommend on health grounds amongst other reasons.Also I think its a little unfair to have an entire male with ALL HIS URGES and no way to relieve those urges EVER!!!!!!! I think most males would agree
So Weller went for the chop and was a bit out of sorts for a while but soon bounced back and it hasn't changed his personality at all......job done


----------



## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

Can only add that Wilf is neutered and has never scented anywhere inside. He was lethargic for a couple of days after op, didnt really use a collar as he left it alone, just not being able to go for a walk was the issue, but soon over x


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

Ahh so the scenting indoors may be for just entire males ... Oakley has done it up my kitchen bin and up me (not so funny!!!, well it was actually) .. I thought maybe Honey was coming into season and started packing his bags to go and stay with nanny and grandad.. then I thought she had a colourless season or possibly a split season .... was a weird time :S


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

non of our males either neutered or unneutered have scented indoors, but you often find dogs that have been used as studs **** their leg in the house

please do plenty of reseach OP before you have your puppy neutered, because research has showed that neutering too early can be detrimental to the health of the puppy later on


----------



## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> please do plenty of reseach OP before you have your puppy neutered, because research has showed that neutering too early can be detrimental to the health of the puppy later on


Interested to know more about this. What is considered too early then and what are the issues? My vet said from 5 months but I just haven't got round to organising anything yet and given it's the summer holidays I might wait till the kids go back to school in Sep anyway.


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Jedicrazy said:


> Interested to know more about this. What is considered too early then and what are the issues? My vet said from 5 months but I just haven't got round to organising anything yet and given it's the summer holidays I might wait till the kids go back to school in Sep anyway.


heres some info on it, i believe it can also affect the growth plates, so i would just do as much research as you can then its up to you what you decide, my vet wouldnt neuter until a dog started to **** its leg

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf


----------



## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> heres some info on it, i believe it can also affect the growth plates, so i would just do as much research as you can then its up to you what you decide, my vet wouldnt neuter until a dog started to **** its leg
> 
> On the negative side, neutering male dogs
> • if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
> ...


Thank you Jenny, I'll take a good look at all of this and weigh it all up. I'm not in any mad rush to do it as no behaviour issues that could be helped by it but I know I will at some point as I want a second dog and I'd like a girl next time.


----------



## holicon (Mar 8, 2011)

I've got Coco booked in tomorrow morning to have him done. He will be nearly 8 months old the vet said from 6 months is fine. I'm having it done so if he gets out and finds a girlfriend there will be no accidents

When i told the receptionist what breed he was he said "oh dear" wasn't impressed with that remark.


----------



## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

how very unprofessional, apart from anything else!


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Jedicrazy said:


> Thank you Jenny, I'll take a good look at all of this and weigh it all up. I'm not in any mad rush to do it as no behaviour issues that could be helped by it but I know I will at some point as I want a second dog and I'd like a girl next time.


Thats ok best of luck with whatever you decide.


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

doodlebug said:


> non of our males either neutered or unneutered have scented indoors, but you often find dogs that have been used as studs **** their leg in the house
> 
> please do plenty of reseach OP before you have your puppy neutered, because research has showed that neutering too early can be detrimental to the health of the puppy later on


Jenny so you have both neutered or unneutered dog that live in your house but don't scent inside the house.. is this right? 

How many neutered males do you have?
How many unneutered? 
Are your unneutered dogs active stud dogs?

My dog is not a stud dog, but he is unneutered and yes I have experienced him scenting up my kitchen bin..... and scenting up me when I was bent over.. long story .. but yes scenting indoors twice...

Guess he will be a great stud dog or he is just a naughty gorgeous boy


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

JoJo said:


> Jenny so you have both neutered or unneutered dog that live in your house but don't scent inside the house.. is this right?
> 
> How many neutered males do you have?
> How many unneutered?
> ...


No i dont have any dogs at the moment our last one passed away 18 months ago he wasnt neutered as it happens, i was speaking about past dogs and i know its a fact that many dogs used to stud do get very dirty indoors 

Maybe your lads just having a blip


----------



## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

Gosh ... re health issues.. I must admit I just went along with my vets suggestion... I wonder why they recommend doing it so young then, or a t least dont explain so that you can make an informed choice ??

And Lois ... the rude cheeky mare


----------



## Bunnyman (Jun 15, 2011)

*The Vet said snip him!*

Thanks to everybody for their feedback. My vet advised that she thought it a wise move to have him snipped in a month or two as the benefits far outweigh the risks. So Spartacus will be 'lees of a man' in a few months time but hopefully better off in the long run!


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

Bunnyman .. you have made the right choice .. asked your vet .. Spartacus will be fine and I always trust my vets advise.

Karen .. don't worry .. you were right having Wilf done.. I would have had Oakley done by now if I didn't want to have a litter... Oakley will be done at some point .. but again I will speak to my vet before doing anything.


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

My vet was the opposite he didnt agree with early neutering, he said it affected the growth plates and the studies that have been done seem to back his beliefs up. There is plenty of info out there for people to make an informed choice, i would check out any studies that either prove or disprove this opinion and not take a vets word as gospel imo.

A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, who were taller than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed).(1) A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.(2) The *** hormones, by communicating with a number of other growth-related hormones, promote the closure of the growth plates at puberty (3), so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. In addition, *** hormones are critical for achieving peak bone density.(4) These structural and physiological alterations may be the reason why at least one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher incidence of CCL rupture.(5) Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age, although it should be noted that in this study there were no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.(6) Nonetheless, breeders of purebred dogs should be cognizant of these studies and should consider whether or not pups they bred were spayed or neutered when considering breeding decisions. 
Cancer Considerations
A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.(7) A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer.(8) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer.(9) Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(10) There certainly is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(12) Luckily, canine athletes are handled frequently and generally receive prompt veterinary care. 
Behavioral Considerations
The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12) 
Other Health Considerations
A number of studies have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early (13), although this finding has not been universal. Certainly there is evidence that ovarian hormones are critical for maintenance of genital tissue structure and contractility.(14, 15) Neutering also has been associated with an increased likelihood of urethral sphincter incontinence in males.(16) This problem is an inconvenience, and not usually life-threatening, but nonetheless one that requires the dog to be medicated for life. A health survey of several thousand Golden Retrievers showed that spayed or neutered dogs were more likely to develop hypothyroidism.(2) This study is consistent with the results of another study in which neutering and spaying was determined to be the most significant gender-associated risk factor for development of hypothyroidism.(17) Infectious diseases were more common in dogs that were spayed or neutered at 24 weeks or less as opposed to those undergoing gonadectomy at more than 24 weeks.(18) Finally, the AKC-CHF report demonstrated a higher incidence of adverse reactions to


----------



## Dylansmum (Oct 29, 2010)

I am no expert at all on this subject, and am the first to be cynical about vets' advice on many issues, but I do find it surprising that vets would be almost unanimous in their advice to castrate if there are more contra-indications than benefits. Personally, I had Dylan done at 8 months and am happy that that was the right decision. I am not keen on the behaviour of many intact males and believe that by looking after my dog's health in terms of natural diet, healthy weight, good teeth etc that I am giving him the best chance of a healthy life with or without his male bits!


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

Dylansmum said:


> I am no expert at all on this subject, and am the first to be cynical about vets' advice on many issues, but I do find it surprising that vets would be almost unanimous in their advice to castrate if there are more contra-indications than benefits. Personally, I had Dylan done at 8 months and am happy that that was the right decision. I am not keen on the behaviour of many intact males and believe that by looking after my dog's health in terms of natural diet, healthy weight, good teeth etc that I am giving him the best chance of a healthy life with or without his male bits!


actually if you look in more depth you will find many vets wont neuter until a dog begins to **** his leg, perhaps these vets are aware of the actual studies that have been carried and the results?, im not really sure, but vets seem split on the subject.

more on growth plate studies.
Can it also cause physiological problems?
Because early neutering removes *** hormones, this delays maturation of “osteoclasts” resulting in the delayed closing of the growth plates of the long leg bones, creating leggy taller than average dogs, therefore increasing the risk of some orthopaedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disease, joint disorders and possibly bone cancer.

It was long believed that eunuchs (castrated humans) were castrated to stop them being interested is the ladies of the harem. However in reality their main function was palace guards, therefore castration and the affect on the “osteoclasts” made these eunuch's appreciably taller and more imposing as guards and soldiers.


----------



## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm niave to assume that a vet would suggest something thats so harmful, not suggesting that you're wrong, I just wonder why they would nt give you the facts so that you can then choose, it never crossed my mind to check.... Wilf did nt **** his leg until he was 2 !!! but obviously he'd already been done by then so that would have delayed it I presume. At least others can decide x


----------



## curt3007 (May 28, 2011)

'Fors and againsts' for everything. Easy to quote from textbooks but there are always contradictions to every case. I'm with Dylansmum on this one


----------



## Bunnyman (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm geeting a little confused by the different opinions here. Now I'm thinking maybe I should ask the vet to remove just one of his b***s to keep my options open : - )


----------



## curt3007 (May 28, 2011)

Bunnyman said:


> I'm geeting a little confused by the different opinions here. Now I'm thinking maybe I should ask the vet to remove just one of his b***s to keep my options open : - )


that so made me laugh


----------



## Dylansmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Bunnyman said:


> I'm geeting a little confused by the different opinions here. Now I'm thinking maybe I should ask the vet to remove just one of his b***s to keep my options open : - )


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

BTW Dylan started cocking his leg at 6 months and I had the op done at 8 months.
I think with any decision about your dog, you will find a lot of conflicting opinions and advice. For example if you look at forums regarding BARF you will find people who are totally against it and quote all sorts of horror stories, and then you will find those who love it. The same with castration, although I have a feeling that more are pro than against. At the end of the day, you can read, consider, and then make the decision that feels right to you.


----------



## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

ha ha ha Bunnyman I am giggling far too much here.. my typing and spelling is poor today .. just seen some of my earlier posts.. must be the heat and the kids tugging at me .. so sorry if I ramble on and type terribly today ..anyway, yes go for the one ball option.. it’s a good look ..

Seriously ... just listen to your vet .. I fully appreciate Jenny’s information on this one as she has been a dog owner, but I don’t think Jenny is a vet so it may be worth just speaking to a professional on this one... it is your dogs private parts after all ... 

I will leave on that happy thought that I am sat here on the kitchen floor typing about lovely Spartacus’s private parts ... we don’t want before and after pics by the way ... xx


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

wilfiboy said:


> I'm niave to assume that a vet would suggest something thats so harmful, not suggesting that you're wrong, I just wonder why they would nt give you the facts so that you can then choose, it never crossed my mind to check.... Wilf did nt **** his leg until he was 2 !!! but obviously he'd already been done by then so that would have delayed it I presume. At least others can decide x


i suppose at the end of the day vets cant know everything, they deal with lots of different species so an even more challenging job than a GP i would say.



curt3007 said:


> 'Fors and againsts' for everything. Easy to quote from textbooks but there are always contradictions to every case. I'm with Dylansmum on this one


They are quotes of actual studies that have been done on dogs neutered early, i myself would be really interested to see studies which came up with opposing results? i cant find any



Bunnyman said:


> I'm geeting a little confused by the different opinions here. Now I'm thinking maybe I should ask the vet to remove just one of his b***s to keep my options open : - )


PMSL

But if you are im no rush to get him done maybe its better to err on the side of caution and wait until hes a little older


----------



## curt3007 (May 28, 2011)

Studies can be made to reflect anything, look at all the studies that are done on human issues, one minute chocolate is bad for you the next its good for you! Appreciate what your saying doodle


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

I just thought i'd post the information for other worry worts who might, after reading the studies, prefer to err on the side of caution & wait a few months to give a pup the chance to mature


----------



## wilfiboy (Sep 18, 2010)

Yeh better to have info and then be able to make an informed choice one that you are happy with x


----------



## embee (Dec 27, 2010)

Bunnyman said:


> I'm geeting a little confused by the different opinions here. Now I'm thinking maybe I should ask the vet to remove just one of his b***s to keep my options open : - )


but if you do that the side without the b**l will grow taller than the one with the b**l and when he wees he'll lift his leg one side and squat with the other and will keep toppling over.

The reason there is no clear definitive approach by all vets is because there are pro and cons to both early (pre full maturity) and later neutering. Some research is good so you can ask questions and raise concerns but ultimately you should be able to trust your vet with your dogs health and well being.


----------



## curt3007 (May 28, 2011)

embee said:


> but if you do that the side without the b**l will grow taller than the one with the b**l and when he wees he'll lift his leg one side and squat with the other and will keep toppling over.
> 
> The reason there is no clear definitive approach by all vets is because there are pro and cons to both early (pre full maturity) and later neutering. Some research is good so you can ask questions and raise concerns but ultimately you should be able to trust your vet with your dogs health and well being.


Totally agree , and no Doodlebug vets can't know everything, but they probably know more than us


----------



## doodlebug (Jul 16, 2011)

thats the point though vets are very split on the subject of early neutering, and the studies come to the conclusion that it can be detrimental to the health of the dog and in many different ways, so early neutering has to be considered and decided by the dog owner...not the vet imo


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

I think both neutering and booster vacs are the two topics that have most owners in a tizzy.

Such differences of opinions causes nothing but confusion when all one wants is a clear definitive answer.

I would look at advice from other owners- info found on internet and vets and then weigh it all up so as an owner I would then make an informed choice.

I was undecided as to whether to neuter Monty. We decided in the end to do it but not till he was 18 months old part due to our deliberation and also I wanted to ensure that he was fully developed.

However new studies and research is good- better to be informed so at least you can discuss new findings with your vet.

It is something I did when it was time for boosters and I changed what I normally did. Had I not found such info I would have just carried on having the normal boosters year in and year out.


----------



## Dylansmum (Oct 29, 2010)

With my last dog, I stopped him having boosters from the age of 12. However I believe that pet insurance isn't valid if you don't have them, so for that reason, I will continue to get Dylan done, at least while he's insured.


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

Dylansmum said:


> With my last dog, I stopped him having boosters from the age of 12. However I believe that pet insurance isn't valid if you don't have them, so for that reason, I will continue to get Dylan done, at least while he's insured.


Yes you are correct.

I am now doing partial boosters with a full booster probably every 2 years ( yet to decide) which has the vets backing and is therefore covered with my insurance.

Also if you kennel your dog most insist on full boosters.


----------



## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Oh no, I thought those sorts of decisions were behind me! My 2nd son was due to have boosters at the height of the MMR controversy and as he had allergies I agonised over the decision not to have it done. My daughter entered the vaccination programme very late, as I did not accept that a fully breastfed 6 week old baby needed to be immunised against diseases I was immune to. I would be very interested in reading about dog immunisation/boosters, can you point me in the right direction? Thanks


----------



## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

ali-s.j. said:


> Oh no, I thought those sorts of decisions were behind me! My 2nd son was due to have boosters at the height of the MMR controversy and as he had allergies I agonised over the decision not to have it done. My daughter entered the vaccination programme very late, as I did not accept that a fully breastfed 6 week old baby needed to be immunised against diseases I was immune to. I would be very interested in reading about dog immunisation/boosters, can you point me in the right direction? Thanks


You will find this subject has both pros and cons on both sides. 

I personally would let your dog have it's first full booster- but that's just my opinion. and then you can decide what you want to do the following year.

Studies have found that the dogs could be still vaccinated for most of conditions ( not lepto that has to be done yearly) and therefore do not need a booster done every year.

I am not one for pumping un-necessary chemicals into them so I looked on the internet and then asked my vets ( I use 2) and then last year decided to do Monty a partial and Milly a full booster as it was her first one.

You can have what is called a titre test and that will show what antibodies are in their blood ( or something like that).

Here is what my vet said:

Milly had a full booster this year as it was her first one and for Monty we had a partial booster.

This is my vets response to booster vacs:

As you have probably gathered from all the different answers to your 
question there is no golden rule on this issue.
Recent studies have proven that a dog's response after vaccination to 3 of 
the 5 diseases that we vaccinate against is good enough for 3 years.

The response to the Leptospirosis vaccine is not as long and really does 
need to be boosted every year.....this is a disease picked up from rat's 
urine which causes liver and kidney failure and is therefore very serious. 
As we live in the countryside where the rat population is pretty high this 
risk must be taken seriously.

Parainfluenza also needs to be boosted annually. This protects against the 
viral cause of kennel cough but as this disease can be caused by a different 
bacterial infection as well and is not usually life threatening the risk is 
not so high.

A possible dosing regime is therefore to do a full booster ( all 5 diseases) 
every 3 years and just the lepto and parainfluenza for the 2 years in 
between. This will work well if clients bring their dogs back for a booster 
promptly otherwise it can end up with the dog going over 3 years before it's 
full booster..thus some vets do the full booster alternate years.

Hope this helps!! but it's up to you to reach your own choice and do what you feel is best- I would never force my choices on anyone but like to give info so people can make an informed choice.

Would be a lot easier if there was just one answer with neutering and boosters eh?


----------



## ali-s.j. (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks for that - I have plenty of time to look into it more, and of course I'll talk to the vet about it too


----------

