# Vet worried me



## xxxxxxxxhantsmummy (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi all
I took my 10 week cockapoo to the vet for her injections today, the vet was checking her over and Honey growled at her, she doesn't do this often only sometimes when rough playing. The vet said that is not a good sign. I asked her what she meant and she said that if their mum is red they can have an aggressive gene? Her mum was red. Now I'm really worried I have an aggressive dog and having 2 children I am a bit paranoid. Anyone else heard of this?
Thanks x


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## susanb (Jan 19, 2012)

If you are like me, then you will worry until you have found some information about this and I found this link......

http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/rage_syndrome.htm

what happened at the vet is NOTHING like this at all so I really don't think you need to worry at all. It does say it is a bit more likely in certain colours of cocker spaniel.....but it also says it is VERY rare. You could check with the breeder to see if there has been anything like this in the parent lines etc - that would give you some reassurance.


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## S.Claire (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm sorry but this sounds like a load of Boll*cks. You poor thing for letting the vet worry you like that! 10 weeks old is a puppy - they don't show aggression at this age - she was scared by a new person - it's their way of telling you she is unhappy. If she was teeth baring and snarling that's a different story but a growl!!!

Please don't let this worry you. I know this is a different situation but I went through a stage with Nacho with taking bones from him when he was little - the amount of growling he made was frightening. He soon learnt who was alpha and I can take most things away from him without him batting an eyelid now - pigs ears more difficult!!

I have never heard of the 'red' gene. Nacho's dad is a red miniature and he was the softest poodle I have ever met!

Do not worry! - Just continue to do what you are doing and i'm sure you will have a well balanced loving cockapoo! xxx


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## xxxxxxxxhantsmummy (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks! I'm such a worrier and left there feeling like sh*t. She was really off with me and kept saying how worrying it was!!!! She is a lovely puppy and never shown any aggression!! X


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

I wouldn't worry the rage thing is very specific and would not show in a 10 week pup. It was unprofessional if the vet to make that kind of comment. 

I would do lots of work meeting new people with Honey as this is vital in these first few weeks (you are probably doing this already ) ). Good luck.


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## jaimebpa1 (Nov 8, 2011)

Don't worry. Olive growled and bit my vet after he gave her a shot when she was 10 weeks old. He was not very happy and told me I couldn't let her "win" when she acted like that. When I groom her she sometimes does this to me and I'm just really firm with her so she knows I'm the boss and I get to do what I want with her.

They are puppies and if something hurts them or they don't like it they are going to let you know! It's like little temper tantrums that a child would have.


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Your vet is churning out the old cocker rage syndrome, what a crock of poo!! The existence of this condition has been debated for years, many say it's dominance agression that hasn't been addressed, some say it does exist and IF it does it affects more breeds than cockers. I know for definite that neither of these situations applies to such a young puppy!!! What a ridiculous thing to say, back to vet school for your vet would be a suggestion I would put forward.


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## xxxxxxxxhantsmummy (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks again guts, I am mixing her with dogs and people as much as possible and starting puppy play group next week!!!


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## Nadhak (Jun 4, 2011)

Erm - dogs growl when unhappy - vet needs to go back to school! If she had bitten him then fair enough - you should be concerned!
The vet should have checked the area again as puppy could be hurting where she touched for some reason - Clyde growled when picked up - we realised it hurt his rib cage - we pick him up differently and he is fine.
Silly Vet - can you change?
Oh I had a 1980's red cocker spaniel - male who did have cocker rage - he was very nasty with other people and snarled and went to Bite - we managed him but it was not an enjoyable dog experience!


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## Scarlett (Dec 15, 2011)

The exact same thing happened to me when my puppy was about that age. She remembered that the vet had given her shots and she didn't like it. She was scared and let out a little growl type noise and the vet was horrible to me for it. She is now about 5 months old and we haven't seen any aggression out of her. Sorry this happened to you - try not to worry!


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## alvinsimon (Feb 22, 2012)

*The Boyz' Vet Points Out Possible Bad Stuff Also*

Some vets seem to point out the worst possible scenario.

Example: Alvin was diagnosed with an anal glands infection. The vet went from a discussion of the infection to anal gland removal (as in surgery). That's the most drastic measure. Fortunately, the infection cleared up.

That's his MO - make sure the owners know the worst possible prognosis.

And one other thing - different dogs will have different reactions to getting handled by the vet.

Alvin cowers in a corner when he hears the vet's voice and shakes when he's being examined. Some pups growl.


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## flounder_1 (May 12, 2011)

I haven't read all the replies to your post so excuse me if this has been said before but
*
Find another vet!!!!!!!!*

We are lucky enough to have the most lovely vet who is always showering Lolly with love and compliments. A vet is there to advise and reassure - not cause you stress and worry.

Our vet offers free monthly visits to all puppies so that they get used to visiting her when only nice things happen. She plays with them, gives them treats and calmly examines their ears, eyes etc and weighs them to get them used to her handling them. Lolly loves visiting her (even following some uncomfortable treatments). She knows where the toys and treats are and always bounds in as happy as can be!!!


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## Bodger (Oct 9, 2011)

I had this too at the vets. I asked the nurse to check Bodger's ears, he had been weighed etc and had his nails clipped already and had behaved well. He had also had been having ear cleaner put in for about four weeks something he didn't like but never snapped or growled but would run away if he saw the bottle. When she tried to look at his ears he mouthed the air a bit (she approached him from the front ), although he didn't bite her or even come close. I got a lecture and felt really bad but honestly we should all bear in mind that dogs will, on occasion growl and can snap. Of course we should all do our very best to ensure they don't but I was brought up to respect a dog's space, if they are hot, tired, stressed or in pain they may react. If Bodger does anything I don't like he his firmly given 'time out' but it is a learning process. A ten week old puppy is still learning. I had the most placid cross border collie (girl) who never ever showed aggression but she didn't like having her nails clipped. In those days the vet was quite happy to muzzle her, now that may not be the right approach either, I don't know but it stopped anyone getting bitten. I do though think some vets lecture pet owners because, of course there are some who perhaps encourage their dog to be aggressive or do nothing about it but I have to say the vet nurse really annoyed me. Infact I then said to her perhaps bringing him in to be neutered might not be a good idea at which point she said not to worry he would be fine, something to do with £250 perhaps? 

You see plenty of dogs being walked and wearing muzzles, perhaps for a variety of reasons but we just see it as responsible dog walking. Why can vets not accept some dogs, despite our very best attempts may just respond in this way.

If someone was poking me about and I didn't understand why, I would get a bit grumpy! I might even bite!


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## Dextersmum (Feb 9, 2012)

Awww,what a horrible vet! Of course puppies growl! A couple of times,when Dexter has been asleep and we've gone to move him or pick him up whilst still sleepy,he has growled but they are the only times he's ever growled! Dogs are not predictable,if they were we'd all be expert dog owners. Your little pup is still learning and is still just a baby. She was just letting you know she wasn't happy. You're doing the right thing by getting her well socialised with other dogs and people etc. I think this is the single most important thing. It'll make a confident,happy,well rounded dog. Honestly,some vets could do with going to socialisation classes themselves!!


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## rubenthedog (Jan 3, 2012)

Wife is a vet. I know that when we were looking for a pup she was not keen on the mother being red.

Saying that though Red Cocker Rage is relatively rare and with a Cockapoo being a mix breed the chances of it being passed on are very small.


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## tessybear (May 1, 2011)

I would change your vet. My last vet scolded me severely for Dexter being too thin (he is no thinner than any other cockapoo I have met) and also nearly had a fit when I said he was being raw fed. My new vet loves cockapoos, says Dexter is a perfect weight and agrees with raw feeding. You do have a right to choose your vet, after all you are paying them!


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## Jedicrazy (Apr 26, 2011)

flounder_1 said:


> I
> Our vet offers free monthly visits to all puppies so that they get used to visiting her when only nice things happen. She plays with them, gives them treats and calmly examines their ears, eyes etc and weighs them to get them used to her handling them. Lolly loves visiting her (even following some uncomfortable treatments). She knows where the toys and treats are and always bounds in as happy as can be!!!


I'm seriously thinking of changing mine. Who do you use Janet?


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## jaimebpa1 (Nov 8, 2011)

Even though Olive bit my vet when she was 10 weeks old (she didn't bite hard or break skin) she was fine with him today at 14 weeks. And she was in pain today. She had to have infected anal glands drained and a bunch of shots. She didn't growl or snap at him. So it definitely could just be a one time thing. They are young and everything is so new to them.


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## kendal (Jul 16, 2009)

ok first off vets have to put up with alot, they often get dogs in when they are in pain or distress, so they see the worst side of your dog. they also are often the person who has to inflict some form of pain on them, be it ingections or touching something that realy hurts.

so he is probably just picking up on this so you will do something before it gets out of hand. 

just lots of touching, get her used to it. 

re the cocker rage, my mum had a red cocker who was fab. but i know several red cockers at work whe need muzzled when grooming. and it not always posible to dry their feet because they go skitzo when your try. now i am the first to say that its all down their training or lack their of. however, it is almost alwas red cockers. the black are fine, the blue roan tend to be howlers. so i beleave there is something in it. how ever i dont think her mu being red will have had the effect your vet says. 

gypsy gave the vet a funny look when last in for her vacc, and she asked me if she needed muzzled. i said no and just held her into me.


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## flounder_1 (May 12, 2011)

Jedicrazy said:


> I'm seriously thinking of changing mine. Who do you use Janet?


We use Halian Vets in Frogmore
http://www.halianvet.co.uk/index.html


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## Jukee Doodles (Apr 5, 2011)

kendal said:


> ok first off vets have to put up with alot, they often get dogs in when they are in pain or distress, so they see the worst side of your dog. they also are often the person who has to inflict some form of pain on them, be it ingections or touching something that realy hurts.
> so he is probably just picking up on this so you will do something before it gets out of hand.
> just lots of touching, get her used to it.
> re the cocker rage, my mum had a red cocker who was fab. but i know several red cockers at work whe need muzzled when grooming. and it not always posible to dry their feet because they go skitzo when your try. now i am the first to say that its all down their training or lack their of. however, it is almost alwas red cockers. the black are fine, the blue roan tend to be howlers. so i beleave there is something in it. how ever i dont think her mu being red will have had the effect your vet says.
> ...


I have actually been looking into the "genetics" side of things in some detail - as being a breeder I am interested in genetics in relation to "Colour" and "Temperament" - again with it's relevance back to "Health" and of coarse suitability as a Family Pet.
I have been approached to assist with creating "Cockapoo" (and now "Cross-breed") pages for the likes of Carol Fowler and other leading figures in the Dog World whose mission is to promote Health way over "Looks". The fact that Cockapoo is even getting a look-in is a positive step and Jemima Harrison is to be commended for sticking to her guns to test these people.

On the "Coat Colour vs Temperament" issue - I am certainly in the camp that believes that a dog's colour does affects it's temperament.....and Yes - "Red" in the Cocker side of things is associated with "aggression":

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/0168-1591(95)01012-2/abstract


http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread10387.html

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/archive/index.php/t-10387.html

http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm#Links

Pigment cells are found in the skin and at the base of hairs, where they produce pigment that colours the fur. But pigment cells and pigments aren't just found in the skin, they're also found in the brain, including brain regions related to mood and stress. 

You'll see the best test feedback in the first link. 

Yes there are going to be exceptions to the rule (as with Hybrid-Vigour too) - but you'll see that colour does have an effect - and as an owner of several dogs in several colours - I'd personally agree with the conclusions quoted above.

Stephen X


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## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

I haven't had a look at your links yet-so forgive me is this is already mentioned.


If the colour red is said to be linked to "aggression" why is it that you hear of it with only cockers? or has it been suggested/noted/confirmed that other breeds of red dogs also have this? e.g red setters?

What about red poodles?

So as a breeder would you not breed from a red cocker or a red poodle ?


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## lady amanda (Nov 26, 2010)

I haven't looked into your links yet Stephen, but I do pose the question, that if there is a tie to aggression with the red colour in dogs, then the same would need to be so in humans. I find it hard to believe that hair colour can determine aggression.
Personal opinion as I have not done any research on the topic, just something that I find hard to swallow.


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## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

I know red heads have a reputation as being firey but I think this is more an old wives tale rather than fact.
Sarah????


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## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

I enjoy researching colours and genetics myself. I have met quite a few lovely natured red dogs and know a very responsive and lovely natured red cockapoo .. a real dream dog  

An experienced red cockapoo breeder would be the best person to answer this question ... 

A dogs nature is influenced by so many things including genetics, the way the breeder raised the litter, socialisation and care/training within the new forever home ....

I am sorry to hear your vet was so negative about your puppies behaviour


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## JoJo (Mar 2, 2011)

wellerfeller said:


> I know red heads have a reputation as being firey but I think this is more an old wives tale rather than fact.
> Sarah????


Lol come on Sarah spill the beans  maybe I should be a red head too ... bring on the hair dye ...


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## M&M's mummy (Jul 12, 2011)

In the first study questionnaires were sent out and out of 2000- only 1008 replied back. People were asked to grade their dogs on a scale of 1-5 therefore this study is based on interpretation of an owner and therefore by that very nature of human judgement one person scaling can be hugely different to anothers.

What is to say that some of the dogs aggression/dominance is down to other factors such as:

The owners inabilty to train or incorrect training
Lack of socialisation
The way dogs was breed and raised as a puppy
Dogs history e.g may have been subjected to many homes
Dogs health condition i.e where there other health conditions that may be cause the dog to display what may be perceived as "aggression"
etc........


There was no % given out of the dogs surveyed as to what % of reds where analysed.

So if for example the study was small and only a small % of reds where graded then again to me that doesn't carry much weight.

The results concluded that the reds/golden were "more likely" not actually solid proof and also they were saying not rage but an Expression of social dominance and are going to be doing follow-ups. So that study IMO is currently inconclusive and only gives a starting point for further research.


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## Sezra (May 20, 2011)

wellerfeller said:


> I know red heads have a reputation as being firey but I think this is more an old wives tale rather than fact.
> Sarah????


It's true Karen...I might seem like a softy on the outside but if you cross me..... :furious:  x (Just ask the husband!)


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