# Growling at puppies - is it normal?



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm looking for a bit of advice and reassurance about Poppy and puppies (not ours or hers!). She is absolutely bonkers for dogs, all types, big and small, she is nicely submissive and loves them all. But puppies...hmmm it seems not so much. We met a 6 month lab choc lab in the pub yesterday and yes he's very silly and a bit rough and very bitey (I got grabbed by him a few times and it really hurt! I'd forgotten puppy teeth ) but she actually snapped at him  and that's so far removed from anything she's ever done we were amazed and a bit unsure what to do. Dogs have snapped at her when she's been rough and silly and she doesn't bat an eyelid, let alone snap, infact she'd just dive back in for more silliness given the chance.
The owner is lovely - we know him- and he said his puppy needs to learn to play more gently and that other dogs are putting him in his place too. Is that what she was doing? We gave them some space and Poppy chose to hide under a table (which is not like her at all). After he'd been gone a while a 12 month black lab came in and she growled and sort of semi snapped at him  while wagging  But after a while she was seeking him out (he was a much calmer pup) and she seemed normal but I wasn't relaxed and was watching very closely. I gave them both a pizzle (in their own spaces) to help them chill.
I've just also remembered a couple of other times she's growled/hidden from puppies too and at the time I just put it down to Poppy being nipped by razor teeth.
So what do you think? Do we need to be concerned? How should we handle meetings with pups now? Was she scared...and if so would reassurance be the wrong way to go. Very confused!


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sounds like the pup needs to learn some manners to be honest and that is all she is doing. Much of dogs communication is through body language and she will have warned the pup several times I am sure that his behaviour is over the top long before she snapped at him. She may also have wanted to get away from him before that and hiding under the table is fine.

She was probably still worked up when the second dog came in and feeling defensive so again normal - wagging does not always mean happy dog - it can mean conflicted and sounds like she was. Allowing both to settle in their own space is very sensible.

Neither of mine are all that keen on pups to be honest, Chance is quite worried by them and tends to grumble very quickly that she would prefer them to stay away. if they push it she will continue to grumble and usually try to hide between my legs. Molly is slightly less predictable, she quite likes polite pups who know their manners but if they push it with her she will tell them off very quickly and firmly - she has been known to pin pups to the ground if they continue to be rude (only ever allowed very briefly with pups of friends I know well enough to not freak out and not something I welcome!)


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you, that helps me feel a bit more relaxed about it. It's just so out of character it's quite a shock to see it!


----------



## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Good girl Poppy, I'd have snapped at him too.  The owner was dead right, the older dogs absolutely need to teach the young ones their manners. Poppy must have picked up your teacher genetics, you should be proud of her not worried.


----------



## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Just out of interest, was poppy on a lead at the time?


----------



## Datun Walnut (Oct 15, 2013)

Tinman said:


> Just out of interest, was poppy on a lead at the time?


Yes she was. Though that doesn't usually matter.


----------



## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Datun Walnut said:


> Yes she was. Though that doesn't usually matter.


I find if R&R are on the lead, & dogs or puppies come up to them they can snap.
They never do this when off lead on walks when meeting other dogs.
R&R have shown similar behaviour, when we have been in an enclosed area (a pub!!) and been on a lead, they have encountered another dog and there has been barking and grumbling and a bit of air snapping.
I put it down to them feeling trapped, or territorial, like they're in their house (not that we live in the pub - honest) 
Like the fight or flight instinct.... As they can't get away if they want to - they will warn the other dog not to invade their space.


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Ah - being on the lead will make a huge difference if she is uncomfortable as she can not move away.

If you watch encounters like this slowed down enough to see all the subtle communication you can see polite things like lick lips and looking away to say she is not comfortable, then probably a glare, then maybe a slight growl, followed by more of a growl and only after all of that a snap to remind the pup of its manners.

Young pups usually have licence while younger to be a bit more lively while they are growing up but by six months they will be losing this and will be reminded of this if they are rude (which it sounds like this pup was) 

I suspect the pup would either be bigger than her or at least her size which from her point of view is even more of a reason for her to remind it of its manners before she got hurt.

Incidentally - labs tend to be the untrained hooligan dogs round by me most of the time, owners tend to say they are "only being friendly" while 25kg of dog leaps all over the place around my 5kg of Molly. I have no idea why but we seem to have quite a few who the owners feel did not need to be trained at all as they are "just labradors"


----------



## Datun Walnut (Oct 15, 2013)

2ndhandgal said:


> Ah - being on the lead will make a huge difference if she is uncomfortable as she can not move away.
> 
> If you watch encounters like this slowed down enough to see all the subtle communication you can see polite things like lick lips and looking away to say she is not comfortable, then probably a glare, then maybe a slight growl, followed by more of a growl and only after all of that a snap to remind the pup of its manners.
> 
> ...


Dexter (the Lab pup) was roughly the same size as Poppy. His owner is very good and certainly training him well - he's just a big stupid pup. After having rescue terriers with 'issues' regarding other dogs, it just worried us how far she might go.


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Sorry - did not mean to suggest his owner was not training him - we just went through a spell of being hounded by out of control labs at one point


----------



## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

Some people buy into the myth that labs are notoriously idiotic until they are about three. Why then with firm guidance can they be leading the blind through traffic by the time they are two? It is 100% down to the owner I believe.


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

2ndhandgal said:


> Sorry - did not mean to suggest his owner was not training him - we just went through a spell of being hounded by out of control labs at one point


You didn't, don't worry


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

She's always seemed 100% ok with other dogs, whether on or off the lead, but the lead issue is a factor we're both always aware of, as you hear of it being a problem so often - we've just never witnessed any signs. Perhaps it did make a difference in this case then. As long as she's not actually going to bite someone's beloved puppy that's ok  I wonder how we would fare if we ever introduced a pup at home!


----------



## Tinman (Apr 23, 2013)

Mazzapoo said:


> She's always seemed 100% ok with other dogs, whether on or off the lead, but the lead issue is a factor we're both always aware of, as you hear of it being a problem so often - we've just never witnessed any signs. Perhaps it did make a difference in this case then. As long as she's not actually going to bite someone's beloved puppy that's ok  I wonder how we would fare if we ever introduced a pup at home!


Poppy would stand on it, sit on it, ignore it, snap at it, take all it's toys off it & possibly pee on it 
Then she would love it and it would be her best friend!!
Are you contemplating puppy 2?


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Ha! Is that what Ralph did?  It's a future possibility, to have another...but might never happen


----------



## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

If both of you on board than for heavens sake do it NOW! The older she gets the less fun she'll have with a sibling. Rufus would have enjoyed one so much even two years ago, now I am less sure. 

Think of hiking over hill and dale with beautiful popster and her younger sibling cavorting in the fields. Maybe a deep chocolate, cream, solid black or white? Come to think of it she'd look marvelous with any colour puppy.


----------



## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

Jasper not a fan of pups either! I just explain to owners he's a bit grumpy and they keep a distance. We are working on it though x


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

In fact whilst we on the subject what advice do people give re. Little black poos that are so good with 2 legged friends having issues with the 4 legged variety. Jasper's main issues are if other dogs are in his face! I think he's more of a people dog to be fair! Yes he's still got his boy bits too x


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Mazzapoo said:


> I wonder how we would fare if we ever introduced a pup at home!


Having described how my pair are with pups  we had a pup to stay for a few days the Christmas before last. He was 9 weeks old and waiting to go to his home but my friend had three of them and they really needed to start to live on their own so he had a few days of house training, crate training and Molly and Chance training 

Within the first few minutes in the house he decided to jump on the fluffy dogs head  I think it is safe to say that was one lesson he learned well and from then on they got on fine with pup respecting her boundaries. Chance grumbled and grouched and was really not sure what to make of a pup - end result was pup had a few tellings off but they both learned to get on fairly well and were just thinking about playing when it was time for pup to go to his forever home. Molly would probably also have played fairly soon too.


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Aw, did you want him to stay? Kind of! Well that makes me feel better, thank you


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Having moaned about labradors he was actually a lab  he was very sweet but two suit me fine as they are easy to handle if we go out so no space for a permanent new addition.


----------



## caz3 (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes I think Poppy was just telling the pup off and quite rightly so but I can totally understand why you are a bit worried Harley (1) showed this kind of behaviour around a couple of pups and I felt the same he is quite unsure with dogs he doesn't know once he gets to know them he has a great time and is very sociable but with pups I am not sure it's like he is not sure how to deal with them ,we haven't came across many so not experienced this situation too many times ! He was off leash the last time we met a pup and he was growing a very excitable growl and goin on its back I had never seen this behaviour either so it took me aback ,maybe he is just not too keen on pups ???As for the bouncy Labradors ....so true ,I had the experience and pleasure of puppy walking two for guide dogs (I have got a soft spot for them )yes they were very well behaved pups (most of the time )but when I free ran them I swear they thought every dog wanted to play !!and they got a few tellings off ,this was mostly in the earlier months of their training and they did get better over time  thank goodness .i am sure Poppy will be fine and you have nothing to worry about x


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you, this all makes me feel much happier about it. This is new for us


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

JasperBlack said:


> In fact whilst we on the subject what advice do people give re. Little black poos that are so good with 2 legged friends having issues with the 4 legged variety. Jasper's main issues are if other dogs are in his face! I think he's more of a people dog to be fair! Yes he's still got his boy bits too x
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh dear, poor confused Jasper - what does he do?


----------



## JasperBlack (Sep 1, 2012)

Turns in to a grumpy growly bum! I think it comes from when he was a pup, he was sooooo tiny and we went for a walk with a friend of mine and her boisterous pup jumped on him and bit him. Ever since he's not liked other dogs invading his space. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DB1 (Jan 20, 2012)

ahh, you can't blame him then, Dudley was not the most gentle pup himself!, now he sometimes has a grumble at adolescent male dogs but he is great with young puppies, although I guess some would maybe find him scary, there have been a couple of young puppies at our park recently and they seem to love Dudley. He does have a grumble at the labs (and other heavier dogs) when they barge into him during play, but they generally take no notice of him anyway, they obviously know he is no real threat!


----------



## Lexi&Beemer (May 5, 2013)

Beemer does this too. Lexi just tells them off if they get too annoying but I notice that dogs approach Beemer very differently. They are much more confrontational and Beemer is clear that he likes his space (he will often stay separate and do his thing). But I find some dogs approach right up to his face. Beemer doesn't challenge them when they do but he does the growl snarl to tell to back off. I usually will see how the other dog responds. If it becomes a growling match I will either call Beemer to me to distract him or physically put myself between them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marzi (Sep 17, 2012)

Puppies are weird.... they smell wrong and they don't necessarily know how to react to other dogs in the correct way.
Most dogs will tolerate baby puppies - although they will even tell them off (as Molly did to her guest ) but generally with baby puppies it is all very open mouthed and loud grring rather than actual bite.
Around 6 months baby puppies in dog terms grow up. I suspect because of the increase in their hormone levels they start to smell different and all of a sudden other dogs become a whole heap less tolerant of them and the tellings off become much more severe and sensible young dogs very quickly learn their manners.
In my experience labradors are not sensible... they are utterly convinced that the whole world revolves around them and everything and everyone LOVES them. They often have absolutely no respect for other dogs' personal space and tend to chuck their body weight around in a glorious exuberance which other dogs can find much too much.
Popster was possibly feeling a bit physically overwhelmed (maybe tired from long hike) and just not up to being labrador mobbed.
Next time be careful to keep yourself between the 2 and discourage play when they are on lead and in the pub - treat for nice sits or relaxed downs and take them outside for an off lead play - when Pops speed should help her keep out of the way and, if the pup barges her - let her tell him off - she will probably go for his neck. If he persists, ask his owners to put him on the lead and again reward Poppy for being calm and responding to you in his presence. If you are in the pub and see another dog come in try and keep her focus on you and pork scratchings/flat bread so that she does not get into the habit of growling at incomers. 
Puff my JRT hated puppies - they were a threat to her status as cutest dog. If pups approached her I would always get her to sit and stay behind me and I would then greet the pup and reward Puff, but would body block the puppy from getting in her face. Once when she was young she got runover by an OES pup and her stump was dislocated - obviously very painful and completely put her off rambunctious pups. 
You know your dog - watch them, if your dog is not happy in a situation - you manage it so that it does not escalate, although in my experience given space, freedom and calm owners most dogs work it out without causing blood shed  Most, but sadly not all.


----------



## 2ndhandgal (Aug 29, 2011)

Fab advice from Marzi as ever 

Just remembered the last pup my friend got - her pack (and my pair when with them) are actually quite used to pups in the house as she often cares for pups for a few days. The last pup she got though all the dogs in the house seemed to decide was "not to be played with" and for almost a week all of them grumbled if he was too close and refused to play at all. Molly refused to acknowledge his existence at all  and actually sulked and refused to speak to any of the humans or other dogs in the house too for a week  she usually spends her time with the humans and sitting on any available laps but she lay on chairs and refused to acknowledge them at all every day 

Finally her collie decided to play and all is now fine with all the dogs but his introduction was probably one of the oddest.


----------



## wellerfeller (Jul 12, 2011)

Weller is a grump with rude puppies! He will growl, then big growl and if they are really stupid he will snap. His signs are huge ( they must be if I can see them lol) but puppies just cannot read them very well, they soon pick up on it though and all is well.
As a small day care I have just taken on a 16 week old puppy that has just come over from Cyprus, as he is used to mixing and spending his time in a big pack of dogs from the shelter and his manners are impeccable!! For such a small and young guy he speaks dog fluently  and Weller LOVES him!
I think sometimes we worry and interfere in their interactions when really all they are doing is commanding manners and respect.


----------



## fairlie (Sep 7, 2013)

wellerfeller said:


> I think sometimes we worry and interfere in their interactions when really all they are doing is commanding manners and respect.


Agree with this, and by not letting them interact and be taught "dog" with nice dogs off leash when they are young, and by rescueing them or over reacting to what we might mistake for aggression when older dogs teach them manners we do them such a disservice.


----------



## Mazzapoo (Jul 28, 2013)

THank you to everyone for great advice. We met Dexter again today, both dogs on leads but walking. Poppy went into full wiggle-bum-welcome mode and Dexter had a stick, so those razor teeth were kept busy, we kept it short and sweet and there was no sign of anything but two happy dogs, phew 😋 We will bear all the new info in mind and be much better prepared for future encounters xxx


----------



## Lindor (Feb 3, 2014)

If the dogs are on a leash it is important to have a loose lead and stay relaxed. Don't pull your dog toward you and keep the leash tight. If you do it will create tension in your dog.


----------

