urgent advice needed when do mums stop nursing pups

[kendal]

this woman will be coming to the training class i go to, she is getting a pup from a woman who's 1 year old ridge back bitch was caught by her sons rottie, the owner was wanting to get the pups homed as soon as the were weened. my knowledge on breeding and nursing is very limited and i don't quite know how to advice her on this topic. the woman(who will be getting the pup) is used to big Strong dogs, its more advice on the litter and how we can help the mum and the mums owner cope with the litter. should they be weening off mum at this age, if not what can they be given to supplement the milk. can they be moved on the a kibble at this age or should they be trying goats milk.


below is a messege from the soon to be owner of a pup from the litter


"Hello

Definitely looks like we'll be getting our puppy next week! Spoke to the mother's owner last week about her keeping him as long as possible which she agreed. But heard from her today & the bitch isn't producing as much milk, pups are constantly at her for milk & she is trying to get away from them a lot ie going up on the bed so they can't get to her. I've never had a bitch but I suggested she put a few pups on her at a time like letting them feed from her 2 at a time so they all are getting milk. The owner has never had a dog never mind had a dog & 5 puppies to care for! The pups are only 4 weeks is this normal or is it because the mother is only really a pup herself?
Also I'm worrying about how my puppy will cope being away from his mother & siblings at 5 weeks? And what should I feed him when we get him, how often & will he be ok??
I just hope I don't get him & he can't cope with being away from his mum etc especially as I have 3 kids who are so excited about getting a puppy. I just don't want to let any of them down.
We have now got him a cage, a padded bed, a blanket, puppy pads, toys, bowls, a wee collar & lead & some food.
Also what vet's should I register him with? As I don't think I could take him to the vets that I took Buster to for him to be put down in Kilsyth as I hate even walking by it!! "




OK after a quick scan on line and i mean quick so i could try and get a response to her before she went off line. because i don't know the exact situation or when the puppies last had a decent feed i have suggested goats milk and to start them on some soaked puppy kibble either soaked in watter or goats milk. i don't think that advice can go to far wrong. have also asked her if she know if the pups have been for a vet check yet or if she know how much they way or if the mum has had a check up since the pups were born.

the mums owner has had not time to preparer for this as she didn't not know the bitch was pregnant until she went into labor. this happened to a guy i knew a couple of years ago he woke up to puppy number one on his bed with number to arriving right after (this was after the vet had told him the birth was just having a phantom pregnancy) so i know it is possible just not ideal.

[wellerfeller]

This is definately one for the pros but do have some experience and also have experience of a pup sent on at 5 weeks. Its too early, the dog I know that was sent to his home at that age as many problems socially, he is scared of everything, very mouthy and bitey at nearly 2 years old, he actually picked up the 3 month old baby and marked her leg:eek: he has really not benefited from being taken away from mum early.

At this age puppy food can start to be introduced to supplement mums milk, her supply will drop off as the pups grow but the food will keep them from being hungry and annoying her too much.They need the food because if they are only getting mums milk and she isn't producing enough they are all going to end up stressed out. She will want time and space away from the pups but that can be given without having to home the pups. Gradually over the next few weeks up the amount of food and mum will naturally decrease the milk she gives them so by 7/8 weeks they will be on puppy food 100%. She can ring her local vets to get advice on amounts and times to feed the pups and a food they recommend.
Please try to persuade her to keep the mum and pups together a bit longer, they are going to be big dogs and the last thing you want is them starting off in a bad way. They need to learn from mum and siblings about biting etc. Thats how they learn.
There is no way I would home a dog of that size and strength with a young family without it having the best start in life and staying with mum for the 8 weeks, they are just asking for trouble later on.:(
Tell her to get started on the puppy food;)

[Jukee Doodles]

Great advice Karen.

At 4 weeks old the pups teeth should start to come through so they will quite quickly get the hang of puppy food or puppy kibble 3 or 4 times a day. Goats milk is a must at this age to replace mum's milk. The easiest but rather messy way to feed these is to put the kibble and the milk together. That's where putting mum back with them afterwards to clean the pups up is invaluable. Even if mum only goes back with them for an hour or so after each feed that will be invaluable to the development of the pups. I would try to encourage the owners to keep the litter together until 8 weeks old even if they only have limited access to mum. The difference in a 7 weeks old pups development to that of one at 8 weeks old is huge. If they are separated from the litter before 8 weeks they are not ready to cope with the big world and it can seriously affect their confidence as an adult dog, as Karen outlined in her post.

At 5 weeks old our puppies have teeth fully and we then start them on puppy food. At that time mum then leaves the pups all day and goes back with them all night. So it's not far off the normal timing for these pups so if they stay together as a litter until 8 weeks they should fine.

J xx

[kendal]

oh i know that why both myself and the soon to be owner are trying to help the mums owner we want her to keep the pups longer. i panicked when o hered and went in to loads of detale as to why the pups need to be with mum and litter to the point where i think i insulted her inteligance a little. i so dont want theas pups to leave mum but theres not much we can do to stop her.

this is why all dogs and bitches should be spayed at 6 month if you have no interest in breeding.


my papa had a poodle pup from 4 or 5 weeks old. the mums owner had died and his wife just wanted rid of the dogs and pups so she didnt care sbe just sent them away. it was a fab wee do but both my gran and pappa were firm with it growing up.


but with this mix im concerned.

[wellerfeller]

I would be concerned too Kendal, very concerned an nervous, anxious little dog is one thing but these size dogs are an absolute danger especially as being homed with small children. Could you not say to the prospective owner that she could perhaps say she will only take one of these pups IF it is kept with the mother til the correct time? If the mothers owner is adamant that she wants rid of the litter asap then the best advice you could give your lady is to back out. Its just not worth the risk.

[Laura(L)Izzie]

I agree! A large dog does not need to have a bad start in life, especially when it is going to be living with children! Very dangerous I think, I wouldn't buy one of them before 8 weeks purely because of the risk of the children, it's not fair on the poor puppies either :( I know that Anthony at Anzil said to my mum on the phone (about weaning Poppy and her litter off the mother) that he feeds them puppy porridge (which I guess is because it's still soft for them whilst their teeth aren't fully developed?) Just another suggestion, good luck! :|

[wellerfeller]

Kendal you could also suggest the owner up the mother's intake of food as they really do need a lot to cope with the stresses of a litter, lack of the correct amount and type of food will have an impact on milk production. You also mentioned about possible lack of vet care?? Worms are also another big factor in health of mum and pups, I know you already know this but it doesn't sound like this poor woman has a clue, maybe worth mentioning? Hope everything works out!!

[wellerfeller]

Kendal, do you know what happened with this lady?